Stun after being Kicked needs to be changed



  • People thinking this 0.1 actually makes a difference for the two dazes is extremely worrying. The fact that even the Maul overhead (there are three attacks slightly slower than the Maul overhead, but they do less damage) can hit in time if you kick someone with their shield DOWN (or no shield at all, which is the same) just proves things aren’t working as intended (the up being 0.1 longer is irrelevant if the slowest windup works with down). Test and record in a controlled environment to see your yourself; people being slow with their follow up attacks, not utilising 0 release, or you being knocked back further than intended due to the elevation is not a ‘perfect scenario’, you always have to deal with whatever is feasibly possible within the constraints to basically determine whether something can be done or not and there is no middle ground, you either can do something, or can’t, it doesn’t matter whether it’s a rare occurrence or not.

    If you don’t know why the Maul can hit from kicks with shield down (or no shield at all), here are the numbers:

    Kick recovery: 0.4
    Maul windup: 0.7
    Normal daze: 1.1
    Special daze: 1.2

    Kick recovery + Maul windup + 0 release attack = 1.1
    Normal daze (1.1) - 1.1 = 0.0 dead time before you can parry (meaning parry has to be perfectly timed - you cannot combo a parry out of a daze)

    Kick recovery + Maul windup + 0 release attack = 1.1
    Special daze (1.2) - 1.1 = 0.1 dead time before you can parry (meaning in a perfect scenario, you cannot parry in time)

    This is the reason why 0.9 would be suitably better for normal dazes, along with returning to the Pre-CU1 ‘being able to block during normal daze but not special daze’ (then increasing special daze to 1.3 to allow the Brandi to better take advantage of kicks on shields that are up). This will then better reinforce the notion that being kicked with your shield down (or being kicked without a shield) is far less punishing than being kicked with your shield up - this will allow shield users to see a kick coming, drop their shield, and not be punished, but if they are kicked with the shield up, they can be punished (by ANY WEAPON I should add, not just weapons faster than a Maul) if the attacker is quick enough.



  • I have never seen a person get a free hit off being dazed on a normal kick. Which is why I said in practice, and not in a perfect vacuum of number crunching. So since we don’t live in a perfect vacuum, that .1 is a HUUUUUUGGGGEEEEE difference In Practice.



  • I have never seen a person get a free hit off being dazed on a normal kick.

    Not many people duel with a Maul, except crazy people like Wolfy, he’ll do it on you.



  • I just did some testing with this on an empty server, level ground where we both had sub 40 ping. Getting kicked with shield down allows you to recover in time to block a dagger stab, every time. If kicked with shield up every weapon seems to get a free hit with the exception of zweihander horizontal swings and any maul attack. The zweihander can compensate to get a free hit if accelerated. The maul simply cannot get a free hit. With the maul stab the weapon animation always hits the stunned person before they can raise their shield, but it ghosts through them every time. I don’t think those numbers are an accurate reflection of the game at the moment, for whatever reason.



  • @amrtin:

    I just did some testing with this on an empty server, level ground where we both had sub 40 ping. Getting kicked with shield down allows you to recover in time to block a dagger stab, every time. If kicked with shield up every weapon seems to get a free hit with the exception of zweihander horizontal swings and any maul attack. The zweihander can compensate to get a free hit if accelerated. The maul simply cannot get a free hit. With the maul stab the weapon animation always hits the stunned person before they can raise their shield, but it ghosts through them every time. I don’t think those numbers are an accurate reflection of the game at the moment, for whatever reason.

    This substantiates my point. You are pretty much guaranteed a free hit if you kick someone with the shield down. I just had a duel with an MaA where all he did was spam kick and swing, right after the other. Even when he kicked me with my shield down, as soon as I brought my shield up to block his follow-through he would facehug me and kick me again, leading to a free hit. It just seems like borderline exploitative tactics to me. The only way to counter those tactics is have perfect millisecond timing with raising and lowering the shield, where as he has virtually no risk to himself because I can’t attack without trading blows.



  • Ok so where are all the lame comments now about this mechanic increasing the skill ceiling? :?



  • Hey Martin just did some tests with the kick, and it looks like the kick only stuns people with their shield up

    so what is the 1.1 Daze on your chart?
    and what is the 1.2 Special Daze?



  • Don’t use a mace.

    Blunt weapons are designed to crunch in tin can helms, like the Knight and Vanguard, making the helm do all the damage to the persons head when hit. It doesn’t work that way on light helms like the Maa and Archer, you need to use a bladed weapon to take them down in a few hits.

    Mix up your secondary and main. I don’t understand why people don’t do this more often. I know people use the secondary for a speed increase, but you can get a damage increase by switching to a weapon that is best suited against that type of enemy.



  • @SEALBoy:

    @amrtin:

    I just did some testing with this on an empty server, level ground where we both had sub 40 ping. Getting kicked with shield down allows you to recover in time to block a dagger stab, every time. If kicked with shield up every weapon seems to get a free hit with the exception of zweihander horizontal swings and any maul attack. The zweihander can compensate to get a free hit if accelerated. The maul simply cannot get a free hit. With the maul stab the weapon animation always hits the stunned person before they can raise their shield, but it ghosts through them every time. I don’t think those numbers are an accurate reflection of the game at the moment, for whatever reason.

    This substantiates my point. You are pretty much guaranteed a free hit if you kick someone with the shield down. I just had a duel with an MaA where all he did was spam kick and swing, right after the other. Even when he kicked me with my shield down, as soon as I brought my shield up to block his follow-through he would facehug me and kick me again, leading to a free hit. It just seems like borderline exploitative tactics to me. The only way to counter those tactics is have perfect millisecond timing with raising and lowering the shield, where as he has virtually no risk to himself because I can’t attack without trading blows.

    Did you read the post you quoted, or do you not understand the meaning of substantiate? It says the complete opposite of what you said.

    “Leading to a free hit” is such a ridiculous thing to say too. “I can bait out your attack, move out of range but come back in before you’re able to parry leading to a free hit!” It’s ridiculous. You played defensive, he kicked you and got in your face. How does this equate with hitting for free? He applied a strategy that clearly worked because you didn’t know how to counter it.

    The only question is if there is an ultimate strategy which is easy to perform reliably that will lead to a win every time regardless of the shield user’s skill. And from what I’ve seen this doesn’t exist.



  • I’m not going to read all of this, I just wanted to say that the stun from being kicked with your shield up should disable the MaA’s dodge as well if it’s going to be in the game.



  • The main problem I’m having with the shield stun is purely my fault. I see a blow incoming and my first instinct and reaction is to raise my shield. Resulting in getting my head smashed while stunned. Kinda the same problem I have with feints. I know I should wait tell that last second to parry but I get too nervous with a sword coming at my face and parry early.



  • Using shields is nonsense anyhow.

    Most people use shields because they suck at timing parries, and most noobs will oblige their turtle style by hitting directly AT the shield, instead of around it.
    I constantly get accused of hacking or asked how the hell I hit around the shield/block.
    I tell them to play the practice mode where you are taught by the game to hit AROUND the shield.
    No hack about it.

    This makes shield nonsense in melee; as for shield as anti-archer -> throwing 2 axes into an archer is more effective than a shield most of the time. Having your own archers do their frickin job, i.e. be an anti-archer, will yield far, far better results as well.

    So now you’re getting kicked without a shield. Know what this means? A free hit, yes, but not for the guy kicking. Since the kick nerf, you can just overhead the guy, because I guarantee you, 99% of the time, the dude will try to hit you after that kick, because the way their logic works is “ohai, a kick lets me get a free hit”.

    Instead, you overhead them. They lose vastly more health or die, you’re a knight and get a scratch you shrug off by resting a few seconds.

    Don’t see the problem.



  • @SomeDudeOnAForum:


    Most people use shields because they suck at timing parries, and most noobs will oblige their turtle style by hitting directly AT the shield, instead of around it…

    I love it man, your contribution is invaluable, however, i disagree that shields are nonsense. ;)



  • you’re not supposed to raise your shield most of the time but only when you’re about to get struck!
    The way they work anyway only makes them good against archers….


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