The Vanguard Charge: Changes



  • It’s almost completely useless. Unless you have the element of surprise, which you don’t because you scream when you do it, its more like a detriment to the class. Its slow, easy to block, and you can’t cancel it. It also uses up a lot of stamina that could be easily put to better use.

    My simple suggestion is to give the vanguard something that is SLIGHTLY useful. The Vanguard is already a strong enough class so that it doesn’t need anything big, but something like, his kicks are a little faster. Or maybe his kicks have more range because he’s so tall. Just something small like that that can’t be exploited and wont push him over the edge to being OP.

    The faster kick would be more like a defensive item, allowing you to get hugging enemies off of you a little better. The price of this would be a longer cool down so it couldn’t be spammed, but it could help a bit. The longer kick would be more useful on offense, allowing you to break shields little better.

    These are just ideas. They might be a little to strong however. The Vanguard needs something VERY small so he’s not OP, but just enough so that it doesn’t feel useless like the charge attack.
    You could perhaps mold it around sprinting like the charge attack, maybe making attacks while sprinting knock the opponent back (no stun) to show the momentum he’s carrying.

    Any Ideas?

    OPTIONS SO FAR:
    1: A simple Toggle to Allow you to turn it off to keep it from being a detriment
    2: Make it unblockable, but make them very hard to connect, making them all slow overheads and stabs
    3: NEW MECHANIC-Be able to combo stabs together, and make combo’d attacks come from the same direction, unless the alternate key is pressed. Only for Primary Weapons.
    4: NEW MECHANIC-Headbutt or Pommel Smash - Cost: 25 stamina.
    Activated by double tapping forward (or V).
    Pushes your opponent back, doing no damage and interrupting their attack. Usable during recovery of both attacks and parries.
    5: Combo out of charge - You can parry it and take no damage, but the attack still follows through and can be combo’d. You are still knocked back
    6: One Hit. Simple as it comes. It’s so slow and easy to guard that if you get hit by it, you deserve to be dead. End of story.



  • Something that encourages sprinting, definitely. I wouldn’t mind the charge attack being sped up to twice the speed it is now, because there are ways to conserve your charge after a normal swing and you can then bust out the charge all of a sudden. If it was faster, this would be more effective, at the very least giving you a stun on the enemy which lets you keep the initiative in the fight or set up an assist for a teammate. That’s the only real use at the moment, leaping at someone and expecting them to block, but having your MAA buddy come in and chop at them as they are stunned.

    Should probably put this in Ideas and Suggestions though.



  • I decided to put it under game mechanics as it has to deal with the special ability of the Vanguard. It’s just useless. He needs something at least slightly useful so it doesn’t seem like such a waste of time.



  • Its like a slam dunk, its a risky shot.



  • Make the swords to overhead attacks with the charge and make all charge attacks unblockable. Still a risky move since you can simply walk to the side and get a free hit a definite way to force turtles out of the way.



  • Vanguard special attack: Regular overhand 1-shots MAA and archer. GG!



  • thats just with sword



  • I hate how you keep saying that vanguard is powerful, all the classes are pretty much at the same level of power, i’d even say vanguard gets the short end of the stick (but don’t take my word for it, I main vanguard so i’m probably being at least a little biased) with their special ability. The charge is total crap, it’s way too slow to be useful, easy to block and for MAA’s and archers to avoid with footwork. Their range advantage is decent, but it’s really the only useful thing they have, and some of their weapons lose their range to have a little more speed or damage, which even then aren’t really anything to write home about, the their movement speed increase? Give me a break, against a smart/aggressive player that speed advantage won’t do you much good. Despite all this I think the vanguard is still balanced, in fact i’d say they’d be better if the charge attack was taken away, since really all it does now is make it difficult to dance since you can’t really use LMB.

    Still, i’d like to see a different ability given to them and charge be removed.



  • @Helgeran:

    Make the swords to overhead attacks with the charge and make all charge attacks unblockable. Still a risky move since you can simply walk to the side and get a free hit a definite way to force turtles out of the way.

    I like this idea a lot. Keep the attack itself slow but make it an overhead so its harder to hit, and then make it unblockable. They would probably have to lower the damage of it and slow down tracking when performing it to keep people from exploiting it, but it would be a boon against Turtles like the knight, allowing you good damage with a risk involved, as opposed to the completely useless charge attack now.



  • Just make it unblockable with its current damage output. Either that or increase its damage significantly.



  • I agree, the charge needs to be changed. I have tried using it around 10 times and only hit ONE enemy, and he was facing away from me and standing completely still.

    Even if charge can’t be blocked, it’s still very easy to simply move to the left/right when you see a charging vanguard. To follow the enemy players movements when the charge animation shakes up the whole screen, especially in first person, is VERY difficult. That’s why I don’t use charge anymore.



  • @bagetti:

    I agree, the charge needs to be changed. I have tried using it around 10 times and only hit ONE enemy, and he was facing away from me and standing completely still.

    Even if charge can’t be blocked, it’s still very easy to simply move to the left/right when you see a charging vanguard. To follow the enemy players movements when the charge animation shakes up the whole screen, especially in first person, is VERY difficult. That’s why I don’t use charge anymore.

    We just need something small that adds a little to the Vanguard style but not much because in reality, he has some of the strongest weapons in the game, but right now his special feels more like a detriment than a help. He needs something that can either help him build distance, or encourage him to sprint. A lot of his strategy is based around this.



  • Agreed- the complete inability to use LMB attacks after sprinting is ludicrous and annoying. You either have to stop sprinting or block the air like a tool to use LMB, which slows you way down and is the complete opposite of what the Vanguard is supposed to be compared to the knight.



  • Exactly.
    Another Idea that I had was to encourage people to use the vanguard’s range, by adding something specifically to his stabs. Maybe make it so that he can combo stabs together. This could certainly bring in a little bit more spear viability simply because of their very effective stabs, and put his special on par with other classes. It would make the vanguard actually a challenge rather than just a fragile and slow class with a useless special. This would probably only apply to the primary vanguard weapons, simply because comboing secondary stabs would be much too fast unless there was proper balancing.

    Just another Idea I had.



  • The risk is a factor, but what discourages me from using the charge attack the most is the lousy damage it does with many weapons. It is often tied with overhead damage or even much lower for the Zwei and Bardiche. I used to switch to my waraxe because it does far more damage with charge attacks than any primary, but weapon swap seems to reset charging now so I find myself not using them at all. If I miss an aware enemy I am 100% dead, and if I manage to surprise someone I am better off just chopping them down with a quick combo than risking a sprint attack and giving them plenty of time to recover even if I land the hit.

    If it were up to me, I’d give all sprint attacks a bigger damage boost, and make it the most powerful attack for each weapon. They should all be capable of at least oneshotting archers and MAAs on body and Vanguards on head, like the waraxe secondary (for whatever reason) already does. The stunning utility remains, the risk is still there, but at least there’ll be some payoff every once in a while.



  • Jeese, I’d just be glad if they had a disable option for it. I’ve died so many times from an accidental charge.



  • @bum:

    Jeese, I’d just be glad if they had a disable option for it. I’ve died so many times from an accidental charge.

    Mhmm. They shouldn’t punish you for having a special ability. Something else I though of was maybe to make the charge attack just like a regular attack that could be activated after a certain time sprinting. It wouldn’t have any special animation or activation. Just after a certain time sprinting, the vanguard would do extra damage on his next attack, no matter what it was. You probably would be able to feint it but this would disable the damage increase. It would also stun just like it does now when you block it.
    Just another Idea.



  • I do not think there is any doubt in my mind that TBS needs to remove charge completely and create a whole new feature for vanguards.

    The charge really cannot be fixed, while perhaps a nice idea from a real life perspective, any implementation is flawed and there needs to be something completely different that is the class advantage.



  • Faucheur has been experimenting with the charge attack; at least the slashing ones, the stab ones are 100% garbage. So far it’s looking promising, but it’s not easy to use. We are still practicing it, FOR SCIENCE!



  • @NoVaLombardia:

    Faucheur has been experimenting with the charge attack; at least the slashing ones, the stab ones are 100% garbage. So far it’s looking promising, but it’s not easy to use. We are still practicing it, FOR SCIENCE!

    what exactly is looking promising?
    are you guys changing them or are you finding some clever way to use them?