The Man at Arms & the Archer [WARNING TEXT TO FOLLOW]



  • I am a MaA player. Have pretty much always been. I’ve also played a fair bit of Archer, and practice archery to a great degree IRL
    I’d like to discuss a few points regarding this both these classes, arguing the points for both realism and gameplay.

    The Archer
    I’m not going to talk about crossbows, as I have far less experience with them, but rather, the bows. To note, I’ve shot bows for most of my life, including the English Long/war/bow, American Flatbow, Turkish Composite, Mongolian Composite, Japanese Yumi, Olympic Recurve, many of them at between 50 - 100 # of draw, so rest assured, I know what I’m talking about here.

    One. What slows the firing rate of a bow down isn’t the draw and release. It’s getting the arrow out and nocked to the bowsting. Drawing the bow as slowly as represented in-game would serve absolutely no purpose. Instead, this is wasteful of energy and strains the muscles.

    Functionally, this means for all intents and purposes, all firing rates would be the same, with the exception of the shortbow, which we may assume uses the thumb draw and quick firing technique shown below.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2yorHswhzrU

    What I’m proposing is a remodelling of the bows. Bows stay nocked or “loaded,” if you will until shot, much like a crossbow. However, the draw takes place much more quickly,perhaps a second at the most. However, to model the incredibly high weight of these bows, stamina will drain as the bow is held at full draw. After the bow is shot, it can be reloaded like a crossbow, though more quickly. To account for difference in power of between the longbow, and warbow, the stamina drained is greater for the warbow.

    “But,” you might cry, “this would make archers overpowered!” Okay, well, listen to the second part of my proposal.

    You can’t bloody move your feet when you’re shooting. That’s right. Once you start walking, you mess up your stance, alignment, and all that little stuff that let’s you shoot a heavy bow with accuracy.

    Archery consequently becomes a dangerous game. Because they can’t move, they are vulnerable to projectiles, either other archers, or a dodging vanguard throwing axes. Their only defence is in their shooting, and increases the range in which they are vulnerable to other classes.

    This gives the javelin/skirmishers the niche of being able to attack while moving. (PS, increase the rate of fire for slings. They’re bloody useless otherwise)
    That’s all I have to say for the archer. Onwards to the Man at Arms!

    Man at Arms:
    Let me just say, I’ve had some experience regarding WMA and the usage of most of the MaA’s arsenal, along with longswords, pole axes and the like.

    His weapons lack flavour. They are part of the heavier classes’ secondaries. Of them the Dane axe wins, more or less. It’s reach, and its power dominate. The only disadvantage is it’s somewhat slower speed. I say emphasize that speed disadvantage more.

    Right after the Dane axe, we have the War Axe and the Falchion. For all intents and purposes, the falchion is superiour in every way. They both 2 hit all classes except knight, whom they 3 hit. Their swing speed is the same, but the Falchion has greater reach. I suggest letting the war axe have more damage on overheads, or swings, or simply give it greater speed.

    The hatchet is a joke. I don’t think I’ve ever seen a single MaA use it after they’ve unlocked the rest of the line. It’s reach is barely greater of that of a dagger, and the speed difference is barely enough to make up for it. The only thing I can think of is to use it as the MaA’s version of the javelin, allowing it to be thrown at short range, for damage comparable to a throwing axe. There would need to be another keybind for that to work.

    The blunt line seems fine from what I’ve played of it aside from the Holy Water Sprinkler, which has no role of its own. In terms of range and speed, the war axe is very similar. It’s weaker against MaA than the War Axe/Falchion, and only seems to excel against vanguards, who get 2 hit either way.

    The Broadsword and a Norse Sword are a touch confusing. Looking at the blade geometry, point of balance, and hilt construction, the Norse Sword is not meant for thrusting. I mean, it can be done, but there’s very little reason to. I’m going to suggest that the Norsesword becomes swing-oriented, and the broadsword becomes more thrust oriented, so that aside from speed differences, the playstyle between the two become more balanced. That way, players who use the Broadsword take advantage of the reach and the players of the Norse Sword utilize the speed to compensate for the relative lack of reach.

    That sums it up for the MaA’s weapons. Aside from the quarterstaff, but that’s been covered in many other threads regarding it’s underpowerdness.

    I would like to draw attention back to my first point however. The MaA lacks an exciting weapon choice that no other classes get, except for the quarterstaff, but see previous paragraph yadayadayada.

    One idea is to allow the MaA to carry two primary weapons instead of one. Because I’ve never seen anyone pull out their secondary for any reason, other than for giggles. This way, someone would take a Broadsword for reach and a Mace for Knight hunting, or something similar. This gives us more choice and versatility.

    The other is to give us a unique weapons line that’s not as terrible. I’ll just give a list and my thoughts on each. I tried to keep to historical weapons, and with a European theme

    Bastard Sword: Shorter than the longsword, faster, less damage. Bit out of the theme of the MaA though

    Military Pick: Similar to the Knight’s Warhammer. However, it’s faster, and deals exclusively pierce damage.

    Military Rapier: Much thicker and somewhat shorter than civilian rapiers, it still has a substantial reach and is thrusting oriented. Relatively fast weapon as well. (41% reach or so?)

    Warhammer: Much like the Knight’s, but with a full 3 set of hammers to play with.

    Anyway, those are my thoughts. Discuss below, etc etc. Actually, let’s be honest, many of you will flame and cry that this is my first post and I don’t know what I’m talking about, but my giving a shit about any of you twats has long subsided with the internet being the pisshole it is.



  • Rapier now please



  • I agree with the MAA part. Archery not so much because the immobile archer is found with crossbows already. It would be more realistic but gameplay > realism.

    Hatchet is good because of its speed. War Axe doesn’t really have a role and the Dane Axe feels a little fast, yes.

    I’d love to have a rapier as MAA and the Norse sword getting a slashing speed buff would be alright, but as you said they are secondaries too. Any change to the weapons reflects on all melee classes, so really I’m fine with the current Norse sword as well. It’s already a very good Knight secondary for dealing with MAA or getting the quick last hit in, it doesn’t really need the help, but a bit of a bump to emphasize speed wouldn’t be terrible either, though maybe cut the range of it by an inch or two in return.



  • Hatchet is a joke

    No, no, NO! Hatchet combined with offensive dodges, facehugging and alt attacks is crazy good, i’ve curbstomped players that have both double my skill and experience using the hatchet/heater setup, I think the hatchet itself is a wonky weapon, so fast and difficult to block that the enemy can’t really do anything besides parry (not to mention the thing can get around shields pretty easily if the enemy isn’t aiming like a pro) and eventually get cut down.



  • Your weapon suggestions are… interesting to say the least, but they don’t fulfill any role which the current loadout already does. Broadsword fits the description of your bastard sword. A pick which deals only pierce is weak against armour, and lacks the range against MAAs; the maces do this job, and do it better. Your MAA warhammer has the same issue. The Rapier seems interesting, but i’m worried about giving too much range to an MAA.

    Also, your weapon analysis is a bit off. Hatchets are a spam master’s wetdream due to its ability to magically ignore blocks, and for the record, they kill a lot faster than daggers. Same goes for war axe. Your take on the swords is correct, but its a well known fact that the norse sword was never meant to be a stab weapon. Given its speed in overheads, i’d say the norse is already pretty swing-oriented.



  • A rapier in the middle of a heavy melee?



  • @LittleJP:

    The hatchet is a joke. I don’t think I’ve ever seen a single MaA use it after they’ve unlocked the rest of the line. It’s reach is barely greater of that of a dagger, and the speed difference is barely enough to make up for it. The only thing I can think of is to use it as the MaA’s version of the javelin, allowing it to be thrown at short range, for damage comparable to a throwing axe. There would need to be another keybind for that to work.

    Ye hatchet needs a buff :D



  • Hmm, I might have to go back and play with hatchet a bit more. I’ve never experienced the whole “ignoring blocks” thing, and pretty much wrote it off as too short and taking too many hits to be worth the trouble.

    What I’m saying is that the war axe has nothing going for it over the falchion, and there is no reason not to use the falchion over the war axe, for all intents and purposes.

    Regarding the Norse Swords and the swing vs stab. I may have been confused due to the in game text vs their actual stats. My point still stands between it and the broadsword.

    My weapon suggestions were pretty much out there, since I had to think of unique weapons that weren’t variations of what the MaA already had in the game, that didn’t quite fufil a niche the existing weapons already do.

    Regarding Bows vs Crossbows. If they both cannot move while firing, the main difference between the two becomes the firing rate, and the ability to wait for the opportune moment to shoot. The bowman has to pretty much release almost instantly to avoid getting stamina drained, while the crossbowman can wait at a corner indefinitely.



  • I like how this guy is a reasonable OP.



  • I don’t like your archer suggestions. It removes a lot of the aiming skill necessary for bow vs bow situations and turns it into pure strategy / waiting game. Also, there’s pretty much no reason at all to add it in except “realism” which is a terrible basis for gameplay balance and choices.

    Your MaA suggestions seem a bit more reasonable. Although, again, I don’t think any of them are needed. The thing I probably most agree on is that secondary weapons are useless, though I’m not sure MaA should be allowed 2 primaries.



  • @LittleJP:

    One. What slows the firing rate of a bow down isn’t the draw and release. It’s getting the arrow out and nocked to the bowsting. Drawing the bow as slowly as represented in-game would serve absolutely no purpose. Instead, this is wasteful of energy and strains the muscles.

    The game is slo-mo. I have practiced with sabres (not the modern ones from olympic fencing but with the real weapons) for a few years and I am able to cut with them faster than the eye can see. I could probably kill an untrained enemy 5 times during 2 seconds.



  • Negative on archer recommendations.
    You have now just turned the archer into any high level sniper in a 1st person shooter game.

    You suggest the stopping of movement before and during the act of firing with a quick draw. In other words… quick-scoping.

    And, if not, we already basically have those changes already - the crossbowmen. Quick fire and long set-up time. And the speed of which he moves when aiming… is a snails-pace.



  • I didn’t read the wall of text… Its a pity you didnt separate your post in two because its obvious some people are interested in the melee side of things while others the ranged side of things.

    I thought some of your ideas about bows where interesting and partly agreed with some suggestions.

    I mainly disagreed that all firing rates should be the same, however, as if you compare the short bow to a heavier weapon there is going to be some difference between how quickly you can lower and raise the bow and also with a heavier weapon the aim is going to be more ‘weighty’. These factors would only be small though.

    I’d love to see weightiness incorporated into all heavy weapons both ranged and melee. I might start a thread about that.



  • I’ll have to side with others and say that the archer rework is unnecessary. Yes, it is much more realistic but doing such an overhaul of the bow just for realism isn’t really worth it when bow users have already gotten used to the current mechanics.



  • @Jorgun:

    I’ll have to side with others and say that the archer rework is unnecessary. Yes, it is much more realistic but doing such an overhaul of the bow just for realism isn’t really worth it when bow users have already gotten used to the current mechanics.

    This is true, and i’m not overly fused eitherway, though as discussed in the suggestion thread on adding “weightiness” to weapons it could improve diversity and balance to weapons in general (other then just being more realistic/cool)


Log in to reply