Hammers, Axes and Maces



  • I get that it makes sense to only register parrys and blocks on the tip of the weapons, but my god is it a pain! Especially when an opponent is in your face with them, as such weapons are designed to be, successfully blocking their attacks requires damn near 180 degree turns toward to head of the weapon.

    I don’t think you should change the block rego, I like the fear that comes with having let them get too close, but I do think you should decrease the damage to match their ferocity?



  • I’ve definitely noticed that Heavy Knight w/ War Hammer gives you a HUGE advantage over most other classes.



  • I think player collision sizes need to be increased a considerable amount and shields should have an additional collision box to prevent people from humping around blocks so easily. Getting over or around a block is very possible without hugging someone’s model, but if you get right against them all bets are off and it really just comes down to luck whether the block will register or not depending on which part of their swing hits you first.



  • Model humping makes sense with low reach weapons, it’s part of that loadouts strategy, but when it’s the spear wielding vanguard that’s deliberately getting in your face to bypass blocks something is definitely wrong.



  • @Strudel:

    Model humping makes sense with low reach weapons, it’s part of that loadouts strategy, but when it’s the spear wielding vanguard that’s deliberately getting in your face to bypass blocks something is definitely wrong.

    I’m not saying it shouldn’t be a viable strategy - just not nearly as viable and buggy-feeling as it is now. It feels more like attacks are starting behind your block radius, rather than hitting your side - especially considering this even happens with stabs.



  • I am thinking that it needs more focus in attacking the opponent for their safety and assurance of winning.



  • @SlyGoat:

    I think player collision sizes need to be increased a considerable amount and shields should have an additional collision box to prevent people from humping around blocks so easily. Getting over or around a block is very possible without hugging someone’s model, but if you get right against them all bets are off and it really just comes down to luck whether the block will register or not depending on which part of their swing hits you first.

    Wow, I totally agree. They really should increase the collision size of players and give shield an additional collision box. When bashing with the shield for example, you shouldn’t be able to be flinched or hit during it.



  • I don’t think collision sizes need to be increased. One handers should be for close hugging combat, but right now they deal the same amount of damage than 2 handed weapons, while also being able to hold a shield. The damage comparision is from feeling and trying it out, not hard numbers. I am talking about damage per second versus damage per strike. They attack faster and can dish out more strikes than a 2h weapon. Also once you are through a block, most of the time you can connect another strike, since the timing for blocking seems off. So yea, I think damage of 1h vs heavy armor should be worse, while they remain a close combat harrasing weapon that they are now, getting in your face.

    I wouldnt change the balance though, since right now, people are playing with all the weapons and finding the strong ones (or fast/ high reach ones for 1h), so we will see how the balance goes in the near future. Maybe everything will even out now anyway.



  • Well, everyone in VOID is just trolling around with the 2handed mace (the big one as knight) killing everyone in their path. They hug their enemy, and then overhead… It’s glitched and attacks almost every time to the back which is unblockable. Now that is not supposed to happen imo.



  • It seems like a lot of you have a distorted perception of how the blocking mechanics work. Essentially, you see people beating you up with a warhammer and you perceive it to be the reason as to why they’re getting through your blocks. I get around people’s blocks just as easily with a broadsword, however, the warhammer is often times more useful in a lot of scenarios.

    That’s a different discussion altogether though. I personally would not like this game to become Mount and Blade where you can block so easily with a shield that they had to band-aid that issue by making them breakable. Just look at the following post. It says it all.

    @Tibberius:

    Slygoat I think you have a distorted perception of how the blocking mechanics work. The reason you need to turn when up close with someone is because the length of their arm allows them to turn and hit you in the back, to counter this you need to turn 45 degrees or more in some instances, not 180.



  • Yea you have a point, and with ping in mind, some swings are just unblockable, it will always be like that.



  • @-Slash-:

    Yea you have a point, and with ping in mind, some swings are just unblockable, it will always be like that.

    So we’re going to balance the game around 500 ping? Because I have experience with quite a number of ping ranges, and while it becomes increasingly difficult as ping rises, it’s yet to reach the “unblockable” status.

    It’s like this in every melee game. As ping increases, they become increasingly more difficult to play than your typical point and click shooter. That doesn’t mean that things should be balanced around 500 ping. How about people play where they belong instead of complaining that they can’t block with 200-500+ ping?

    I mean if you have people that are already bad at blocking and you add ridiculously high pings, that’s more an issue of the player than the game and is by no means a free ticket to make blocking so ridiculously easy that it ruins it for everyone in all ping ranges.



  • @JackBaldy:

    I personally would not like this game to become Mount and Blade where you can block so easily with a shield that they had to band-aid that issue by making them breakable.

    Actually the breakable shields was something that was inherited from the single player, multiplayer design had nothing to do with it. Though I agree multiplayer shield combat in Warband was pretty shitty.

    More on topic (and more specifically responding to the text you quoted from Tibberius): I think one of the reasons people find blocking in facehugging range so difficult is because it doesn’t matter all that much anywhere else. Honestly, when blocking a weapon with a bit of range between you and your attacker, you don’t need to be very accurate at all. Tapping RMB suffices, I rarely bother to move the center of my screen towards the tip of his weapon because the game almost never punishes me for not doing so. People aren’t getting used to aiming their blocks because there are only a handful of situations where they actually have to. And because of that, it becomes so much more problematic at these moments. Especially when, all of a sudden, you have to turn your screen by 45° because there’s a facehugger who, to make matters worse, most of the time wields one of the fastest weapon in the game. So, strangely enough, I believe one fix you may try for this issue is to actually make aiming blocks harder.



  • @TheNarrator:

    @JackBaldy:

    I personally would not like this game to become Mount and Blade where you can block so easily with a shield that they had to band-aid that issue by making them breakable.

    Actually the breakable shields was something that was inherited from the single player, multiplayer design had nothing to do with it. Though I agree multiplayer shield combat in Warband was pretty shitty.

    More on topic (and more specifically responding to the text you quoted from Tibberius): I think one of the reasons people find blocking in facehugging range so difficult is because it doesn’t matter all that much anywhere else. Honestly, when blocking a weapon with a bit of range between you and your attacker, you don’t need to be very accurate at all. Tapping RMB suffices, I rarely bother to move the center of my screen towards the tip of his weapon because the game almost never punishes me for not doing so. People aren’t getting used to aiming their blocks because there are only a handful of situations where they actually have to. And because of that, it becomes so much more problematic at these moments. Especially when, all of a sudden, you have to turn your screen by 45° because there’s a facehugger who, to make matters worse, most of the time wields one of the fastest weapon in the game. So, strangely enough, I believe one fix you may try for this issue is to actually make aiming blocks harder.

    Yes, it’s easier to block at a distance than it is to block from far away. People need to educate themselves (Something which is easily learned by doing the tutorial and fighting against bots) on how to block. That’s it. There’s nothing inherently wrong with the current blocking system. It doesn’t make offense overpowered/underpowered or defense overpowered/underpowered (Where as Mount and Blade defense is definitely overpowered at it’s core - henceforth one of the reasons as to why shield combat is fairly bad).

    It gives offense options and defense options. The scale isn’t leaned heavily on either side. Honestly, if people can’t be bothered to learn how to block (By going through the tutorial which is fairly easy), then they should use a crossbow or Javelins + Shield Bash exploit.

    Although if I’m to take a serious look at what you commented on making block even MORE difficult, I’d tell you to just picture how much more whining will be done on the forums. The people crying about face hugging and spam would just exponentially grow at a rapid rate.



  • I find that the difficulty gap between blocking in facehugging range and at longer range is just too big. That doesn’t mean that it’s too hard in facehugging range, just that it’s weird and counterintuitive that aiming your block matters so little in 90% of the game, then suddenly becomes both important and quite difficult in close range. I honestly think that making the aim of your blocks matter more when at twohander range might actually solve this issue without making the game easier. It’s not the difficulty of blocking up close that frustrates people (I think), it’s the weirdness of not having to bother with aiming most of the time except in very specific situations against (usually) the fastest weapons in the game.

    Also, I lolled at “defense is definitely overpowered”. That is the silliest statement I’ve read in quite some time here :P



  • @TheNarrator:

    I find that the difficulty gap between blocking in facehugging range and at longer range is just too big. That doesn’t mean that it’s too hard in facehugging range, just that it’s weird and counterintuitive that aiming your block matters so little in 90% of the game, then suddenly becomes both important and quite difficult in close range. I honestly think that making the aim of your blocks matter more when at twohander range might actually solve this issue without making the game easier. It’s not the difficulty of blocking up close that frustrates people (I think), it’s the weirdness of not having to bother with aiming most of the time except in very specific situations against (usually) the fastest weapons in the game.

    Also, I lolled at “defense is definitely overpowered”. That is the silliest statement I’ve read in quite some time here :P

    How is it silly? In Mount and Blade, say in a 1 v 1 scenario, if someone did not mess up their blocking, there was no way to penetrate defense. And let me tell you, it wasn’t that difficult to do that. Even scrubs like Leonidas took a tour around the arena map because of how overpowered defense was compared to offense. Anyways, enough of that, I’m not going to dick wave with a moderator.

    And I will have to disagree with you. I think that a lot of people are used to the Mount and Blade style of blocking where you just hold block and hide behind your shield (Easy as pie to do), and when faced with something different and something that requires skill and has a learning curve, they cry about it. It’s clearly stated in the tutorial how to block. Just people don’t bother to educate themselves and they rather cry about it.

    And personally, I don’t see how you could make blocking at a distance more difficult without doing a complete revamp of how the current blocking system works mechanically, but I could be wrong. I personally like the current state of blocking because it doesn’t make blocking too strong or too weak and it doesn’t make it nigh impossible to engage in anything besides a 1 v 1. Yes, two handed weapons have their issues, but I don’t think the best solution is to alter the blocking system.



  • @JackBaldy:

    How is it silly? In Mount and Blade, say in a 1 v 1 scenario, if someone did not mess up their blocking, there was no way to penetrate defense. And let me tell you, it wasn’t that difficult to do that. Even scrubs like Leonidas took a tour around the arena map because of how overpowered defense was compared to offense. Anyways, enough of that, I’m not going to dick wave with a moderator.

    May I assume you are talking about combat with shields? I think M&B’s combat without shields is actually very good, and few people consider defending yourself without a shield easy. There are no players who never mess up their blocking when they don’t have a shield. Duels between good players do take a while, usually, but there are enough techniques available in Warband for deception and throwing off your opponent’s rhythm that you can really gain an advantage out of learning how to attack well. Anyway.

    Saying that defending yourself with a shield is ‘overpowered’ may be true in some situations, but definitely not all the time. What combat techniques are considered ‘overpowered’ in M&B heavily depends on the skill level of the players experiencing them. New players can be broadly separated in turtles and spammers. The turtles don’t necessarily only defend, they’re generally people who really want to learn the game. They don’t take many risks, but perform reasonably well if they have a sturdy shield and there’s a neat, polite block-counterattack rhythm going on. Spammers don’t give a fuck and just attack, usually with a big twohander. Well, guess who complained about who? The forum has, over the course of the existence of multiplayer, practically always been filled with posts by newer players complaining about the spammers. A good player thinks of a spammer as a free kill, but this all-out offensive style seems to be effective against below-average players. So, for them (which is actually a sizeable chunk of the playerbase), your claim isn’t true. In duel situations, neither is it true for very good players. Their ability to block almost as well with a weapon as with a shield generally means that the one with the twohander has the advantage, since he can exploit his weapon range to get in several hits on the shield and break it quickly. A player who turtles will see his shield quickly obliterated.

    What I will agree with is that defending yourself with a shield was ridiculously easy compared to the challenge of defending yourself without one. And Battle mode had a tendency of forcing infantrymen to go with a shield, otherwise they’re free kills for archers. And that does make Battle combat more boring, yes.

    And don’t worry about me being a moderator, I won’t hand out warnings for simply having a bit an argument, and I’m especially reluctant to do so when I’m involved in the discussion myself.

    And I will have to disagree with you. I think that a lot of people are used to the Mount and Blade style of blocking where you just hold block and hide behind your shield (Easy as pie to do), and when faced with something different and something that requires skill and has a learning curve, they cry about it. It’s clearly stated in the tutorial how to block. Just people don’t bother to educate themselves and they rather cry about it.

    Manual blocking (== blocking without a shield) in M&B has, for many players, a learning curve with the gentleness and softness of a brick wall, and I can say that blocking in Chivalry is very easy compared to manual blocking in Warband. That’s not a bad thing, Chivalry differentiates in skill in other area’s. But to anyone who, like me, trained to get blocking down in M&B, this isn’t a challenge. In M&B I needed to practice intensively on blocking alone for hours to even get a semblance of defending myself reliably. In Chivalry, you pick up the game and you can block most attacks no problem. Attacks are generally much more telegraphed and executed slowlier, the aim of your block is fairly forgiving and feinting is much less prevalent. Yes, blocking with a shield in M&B is even easier than it is in this game, but many of the ex-M&B’ers here are veterans of the game who got the advanced techniques of that game, to some extent, down. It’s ludicrous to claim that they would be crying because there is too much challenge.

    The only situations where I still fuck up regularly in Chivalry are in really close range. I expect I’ll eventually get used to it (unfortunately I can’t pour all that much time in Chivalry atm), but I think the sudden leap in percentage of fucking up when in close range has to do, for me personally, with not really needing to aim my block at longer range. I really believe the game would be more intuitive if the blocking aim would be a bit more unforgiving at longer ranges, so it feels a bit more consistent. We can go back and forth about this all day, though, no way to know before actually simulating it.

    And personally, I don’t see how you could make blocking at a distance more difficult without doing a complete revamp of how the current blocking system works mechanically, but I could be wrong. I personally like the current state of blocking because it doesn’t make blocking too strong or too weak and it doesn’t make it nigh impossible to engage in anything besides a 1 v 1. Yes, two handed weapons have their issues, but I don’t think the best solution is to alter the blocking system.

    Well, I’d just make it require more precise aim at the tip of the weapon. Surely you must have noticed how, right now, it just doesn’t matter in the slightest. You just click RMB and you’re done, if your enemy isn’t right in your face. Just make the area you’re blocking (if that’s how the code works, I have no idea of course) a bit smaller so aiming is an issue all the time, not just at very specific moments in the game.



  • @TheNarrator:

    There are no players who never mess up their blocking when they don’t have a shield. Duels between good players do take a while, usually,…

    The only reason they take a while is because Warband is defense heavy. You can’t deny that. In a duel vs another player, offense is very limited compared to defense. That’s why you have long endurance battles that last all day. That’s why you have Leonidas taking tours around the arena. I have more experience in Warband than what you may think given I never used this particular name in-game.

    And when I say that defense is overpowered, I’m stating that the scales between offense and defense is heavily leaning towards defense. To deny that is to claim to have never played high level melee play in Warband.

    What I will agree with is that defending yourself with a shield was ridiculously easy compared to the challenge of defending yourself without one.

    @TheNarrator:

    What I will agree with is that defending yourself with a shield was ridiculously easy compared to the challenge of defending yourself without one.

    I’m only bringing up shields from Mount and Blade because they’re the most easily comparable item of Mount and Blade and Chivalry Medieval Warfare. By comparison, it is far more difficult to engage in the act of blocking with a shield in Chivalry Medieval Warfare than in Mount and Blade. That’s all there is to that comparison. All other mechanics taken out of the table (Because Mount and Blade and Chivalry Medieval Warfare are two very different games) and just the act of committing a block is all that is being compared.

    @TheNarrator:

    And don’t worry about me being a moderator, I won’t hand out warnings for simply having a bit an argument, and I’m especially reluctant to do so when I’m involved in the discussion myself.

    That’s good to hear. In any case, regardless of moderator status, I just wasn’t interested in e-peen waving about a game that I’m not interested in going back to. Although with that being said, I was a little cautious considering you made an attitude comment towards ~X~ so that’s where I was getting that particular reading from you. :Shrugs:

    @TheNarrator:

    Manual blocking (== blocking without a shield) in M&B has, for many players, a learning curve with the gentleness and softness of a brick wall, and I can say that blocking in Chivalry is very easy compared to manual blocking in Warband. That’s not a bad thing, Chivalry differentiates in skill in other area’s. But to anyone who, like me, trained to get blocking down in M&B, this isn’t a challenge. In M&B I needed to practice intensively on blocking alone for hours to even get a semblance of defending myself reliably. In Chivalry, you pick up the game and you can block most attacks no problem. Attacks are generally much more telegraphed and executed slowlier, the aim of your block is fairly forgiving and feinting is much less prevalent. Yes, blocking with a shield in M&B is even easier than it is in this game, but many of the ex-M&B’ers here are veterans of the game who got the advanced techniques of that game, to some extent, down. It’s ludicrous to claim that they would be crying because there is too much challenge.

    It’s about being different. And it’s not a ludicrous claim at all. Given my experiences in game of Mount and Blade players, in-game, crying about being unable to block and hits going through their block, my claims hold some merit. There’s a lot of Mount and Blade players in-game who constantly cry about face hugging and other hits that go through their block simply because they’re used to the Mount and Blade style of directional blocking which is far different.

    If blocking was nearly as easy as you claim for a Mount and Blade player to come in and receive no challenge, then there wouldn’t be as much whining and complaining as you hear now. Both in-game and on the forums. Some people are afraid of change and some people’s ego are too sensitive to realize that their Mount and Blade melee skills did not translate over to Chivalry Medieval Warfare. The claim has plenty basis.

    @TheNarrator:

    The only situations where I still fuck up regularly in Chivalry are in really close range.

    You’re only further proving my point. Blocking when it is at it’s most difficult, you struggle with it. It’s not a matter of Mount and Blade is less challenging to block in or Chivalry is more challenging to block in, it’s a matter of - It’s different. Furthermore, I believe that in Chivalry, defense is far less effective than in Mount and Blade. And I actually like that. I prefer it.

    In Mount and Blade, there was always the free ticket of, “Let me hold block all day and wait until teammates arrive because the person attacking me will not be able to do anything besides break my shield and then I might just pull out another one.” This is something I employed very well with friends who could not block as well as I could but were still a great asset to me in team play.

    In Chivalry, there is no such free ticket.

    @TheNarrator:

    Well, I’d just make it require more precise aim at the tip of the weapon. Surely you must have noticed how, right now, it just doesn’t matter in the slightest. You just click RMB and you’re done, if your enemy isn’t right in your face. Just make the area you’re blocking (if that’s how the code works, I have no idea of course) a bit smaller so aiming is an issue all the time, not just at very specific moments in the game.

    The “aim at the tip of the weapon” thing is just a guideline. A guideline that often times works for most combinations of weapons and shields. But it’s just that, a guideline. While I may be wrong, I don’t believe that it is any indicator of how the blocking mechanics work. For example, with a shield, you just have to make sure that your shield touches the oncoming weapon.

    With that being said, unlike in Mount and Blade, there doesn’t appear to be a huge invisible force field. What I believe that is actually going on here is that certain weapons and shields have parry boxes (Usually indicative of the visual model, sometimes slightly more bigger on certain weapons - give or take). And if that’s the case, I don’t see how you can make it more difficult at a range while still keeping it the same difficulty at close range.

    Furthermore, I’m not sure if that would be the best course of action because it will severely tip the scales in the offense/defense balance. Honestly, I enjoy the fact that there are a wide range of blocking difficulties based on distance and angles. It allows good players to strive both defensively and offensively.

    Edit:
    Can you please space out some of your paragraphs a bit more? Just to make them easier to read on the eyes. o.o… :Hugs:



  • Just started playing, but i noticed the facehuggers right from the get go. Annoying to say the least lol.

    The best way i have seen to counter this is handle hits - not sure if this is in game or not, havent played long enough yet. If it is not it should be.



  • It’s not in the game, and it would actually harm 2handers more than 1handers tbh, even if it did work, which it is very hard to work.

    Handle hits suck generally tbh.


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