Face Hugging (and close Tracer Manipulation) Balance Debate



  • Face hugging is one of the most optimal strategies in the game no matter what weapon you use. It’s also just another thing that encourages aggressive play and discourages defensive play. It’s just weird as hell considering how it appears you are blocking but then the game tells you otherwise…

    I can block face hugging attacks for the most part but there are always some that seem to go right around you no matter what you do. See this video for example.

    PS: Video is not a showcase of perfect parrying, just an example of up close parrying.

    [youtubehd:2exqz1xd]I7hXUYxSFhc[/youtubehd:2exqz1xd]



  • @Dr.Nick:

    I can block face hugging attacks for the most part but there are always some that seem to go right around you no matter what you do. See this video for example.

    The guy in that video isn’t even facehugging you very hard.

    If he couldn’t get close then there would be no way in hell he could get around your blocks with a 1h and all the defender would need to do is look straight and block. Your blocks in that video are pretty bad too. They’re not precisely aimed at all (you should be moving your aim MUCH more to the side) and it worries me that you think it’s broken that those parries didn’t connect. If you were playing AoC, you would block all of those, but that was a massive problem, because it meant any correctly timed parry would succeed and all you could do is hope that someone would derp or the lag monster attacked.

    A lot of people say 1h blocking is broken, but it’s not. They just haven’t learnt how to block them. I’ll agree it might be unintuitive, but that’s necessary for there to be any amount of skill in blocking.



  • @Daiyuki:

    The problem is that those were standard attacks, so a standard block should be fine. The kind of blocks seen in the video work in most cases, then all of a sudden the same block doesn’t.

    Agreed. Moreover if the other guy had a 2H weapon, the parries would not fail.



  • @NabsterHax:

    @Dr.Nick:

    I can block face hugging attacks for the most part but there are always some that seem to go right around you no matter what you do. See this video for example.

    The guy in that video isn’t even facehugging you very hard.

    If he couldn’t get close then there would be no way in hell he could get around your blocks with a 1h and all the defender would need to do is look straight and block. Your blocks in that video are pretty bad too. They’re not precisely aimed at all (you should be moving your aim MUCH more to the side) and it worries me that you think it’s broken that those parries didn’t connect. If you were playing AoC, you would block all of those, but that was a massive problem, because it meant any correctly timed parry would succeed and all you could do is hope that someone would derp or the lag monster attacked.

    A lot of people say 1h blocking is broken, but it’s not. They just haven’t learnt how to block them. I’ll agree it might be unintuitive, but that’s necessary for there to be any amount of skill in blocking.

    To give credit where credit is due that’s not actually my video, just another player noticing the silliness of up close parrying. Their parries look pretty accurate to me.



  • @Daiyuki:

    The problem is that those were standard attacks, so a standard block should be fine. The kind of blocks seen in the video work in most cases, then all of a sudden the same block doesn’t.

    It’s obvious to me in that video that the player is not putting out precise blocks. Sometimes you’ll get lucky, obviously, and get a parry anyway but they were no where near as good as they could have been.



  • It’s another example of offensive skill imbalanced for defensive skill.

    Simply put, it takes less skill to attack than to defend the attack with close range one handers. It probably should be this way, but to this extent? There’s also another serious bug I won’t elaborate too much on, but it can cause the animation to be from one side, when the attack is coming from the other side.

    The best way to sync this up is facehugging control options. If there are ways to force an opponent back without too much trouble, it won’t be so bad.

    It very well may have been lag for the inconsistencies in that video. For instance, the stab block was perfectly aimed, but the timing may have been too late. He blocked so late into the attack, it’s possible that information just wasn’t transmitted between both players fast enough. Even with 40 ping across both players, when dealing with fast one handers and waiting until the last moment to parry (as you should) it’s actually quite a lot of time. If you get to higher pings like 70-80, 1h fighting can be highly imprecise.



  • @NabsterHax:

    @Daiyuki:

    The problem is that those were standard attacks, so a standard block should be fine. The kind of blocks seen in the video work in most cases, then all of a sudden the same block doesn’t.

    It’s obvious to me in that video that the player is not putting out precise blocks. Sometimes you’ll get lucky, obviously, and get a parry anyway but they were no where near as good as they could have been.

    What on earth are you talking about man. Out of the 4 attacks, only the second should have been a hit. Number 1 was pretty good, numbers 3 and 4 seem damn near perfect to me. I don’t suppose there’s a chance the footage was taken before the patch, when close range blocking was bugged?

    Basing your argument on the notion that those parries were bad is just horrendous.



  • The parries in that video looked a tad bit slow to me (which may be why they got through with the lag sensitivity and all) but quite accurate.



  • @Bloodhead:

    @NabsterHax:

    @Daiyuki:

    The problem is that those were standard attacks, so a standard block should be fine. The kind of blocks seen in the video work in most cases, then all of a sudden the same block doesn’t.

    It’s obvious to me in that video that the player is not putting out precise blocks. Sometimes you’ll get lucky, obviously, and get a parry anyway but they were no where near as good as they could have been.

    What on earth are you talking about man. Out of the 4 attacks, only the second should have been a hit. Number 1 was pretty good, numbers 3 and 4 seem damn near perfect to me. I don’t suppose there’s a chance the footage was taken before the patch, when close range blocking was bugged?

    Basing your argument on the notion that those parries were bad is just horrendous.

    Yeah, they were quite accurate. Having been spending a lot of time on Interitus Duels during my days off, I can say I have parried lots of attacks way less accurately than that and gotten successful parries out of it. I always have about 50-60 ping, which makes it more consistent, so it could definitely be the timing of the blocks that is the issue. They look fine to me though and I have certainly had some times where I blocked just like the video and got hit just like the video, but I think that’s actually an alt-slash problem and not a blocking problem.

    I should try and do some tests with normal swings vs alt swings, since I’ve gotten the same impressions from other players regarding alt swings.



  • @Dr.Nick:

    Face hugging is one of the most optimal strategies in the game no matter what weapon you use. It’s also just another thing that encourages aggressive play and discourages defensive play. It’s just weird as hell considering how it appears you are blocking but then the game tells you otherwise…

    I can block face hugging attacks for the most part but there are always some that seem to go right around you no matter what you do. See this video for example.

    [youtubehd:rw7chbt3]I7hXUYxSFhc[/youtubehd:rw7chbt3]

    This is an example of poor blocking, not poor game mechanics.



  • @bada:

    This is an example of poor blocking, not poor game mechanics.

    Those parries are correctly aimed and are clearly already up when he takes damage. I have zero idea what you’re talking about. The only one that seems like a legitimate hit is the second (the delayed alt slash), because when you connect with the last half of the alt slash the tip reaches around behind them faster than the portion of the blade near the hilt connects with their front half, requiring quite a turn to parry correctly.

    What happened in the other three instances is that hit/parry detection in Chivalry is (as far as I can tell) attacker side. Which means your parry has to travel your combined pings to the other person’s client, and then the representation of your dude on his client raises its parry, and his client checks to see if your representation parried him or not. And if you don’t parry earlier than your combined pings from the time his client decides you take damage, your parry gets completely ignored (because as far as his client is concerned, it didn’t happen). He is parrying too late, even though it isn’t too late on his screen.

    I bet if we had video of the duel from the other player’s perspective, hits 1, 3, and 4 would have shown no parries on his end - it would have just been standing there getting hit. This is completely at odds with the conventional wisdom of parry - parrying later lets you catch more feints and more drags. But ping punishes parrying late. It’s rather silly.



  • @Dr.Nick:

    Face hugging is one of the most optimal strategies in the game no matter what weapon you use. It’s also just another thing that encourages aggressive play and discourages defensive play. It’s just weird as hell considering how it appears you are blocking but then the game tells you otherwise…

    I can block face hugging attacks for the most part but there are always some that seem to go right around you no matter what you do. See this video for example.

    [youtubehd:jo5l3p5h]I7hXUYxSFhc[/youtubehd:jo5l3p5h]

    That video is not facehugging, And those parries would have failed either way.

    1st hit, Stab goes to Player’s side, Player looks too far left, and the knight pulls it back in.

    2nd hit, Player turned too far to the right, and the handle hits him, probably on the players left side. the knight pulls the swing back in to your midsection

    3rd hit, May have been a late, latency parry, but it also looks like the swing goes lower than the players parry and maybe hits his legs/feet.

    Last hit, the stab comes real high, and you parry low, he probably pulled it back onto the viewers right, and hitting your head/shoulders on the side.



  • Yes, it’s convenient that no pings are shown.

    But at best, that’s an issue with poor latency, not chivalry’s poor hit detection.

    I can see what’s happening on every one of these hits.

    In the first hit, he turns too far left, and he directs it into his arm (what was once his front.)

    In the second hit, the enemy is slightly to the right, and because he swings, he mixes it up and makes contact on the player’s arm.

    In the third hit, the enemy swings at him and drags it forward, once again making contact in the player’s arm.

    On the fourth hit, he parries early and drags it, but can not drag it in time to where he needs to because of the capped parry drag speed.

    In many of these hits, the player’s footwork is counter productive, approaching the enemy’s flank while exposing his own flank to the enemy’s swings, letting him mix it up as he (perhaps unintentionally) wished.

    Facehugging is high risk, high reward, and completely able to be reacted to in my opinion. Here you have someone who is bad at close range combat attempting to have a close range fight.



  • I would say facehugging is pretty low risk for the attacker/aggressor since you tend to have to block a lot less which is where the real time combat system becomes a disadvantage for one person. The whole problem around facehugging revolves around abusing the real time combat system for the most optimal way of getting around opponents’ defenses. I say abusing because you are manipulating the tracers on your weapon to go around what would normally be perfectly acceptable parries or you are just starting your tracers inside/much closer to someone’s hitbox.

    The point of the video is that parrying attacks gets pretty weird up close, which is only one problem from face hugging.

    Let’s not dwell on the video too much and get back on topic. I’m sure there will always be some facehugging in game since putting up invisible walls around players isn’t likely to happen. The devs have said they want to cut down on face hugging so let us come up with some solutions to help them.



  • @Dr.Nick:

    I would say facehugging is pretty low risk for the attacker/aggressor since you tend to have to block a lot less which is where the real time combat system becomes a disadvantage for one person.

    I should have been clearer, I was suggesting that if you try to facehug, you expose yourself to facehugging tactics. The player in the video is approaching the opponent’s right side (toward him) during most of his hits.

    Also with the buff to sprinting (being able to initiate sprint during a parry), you can afford yourself a lot more room than you could before, causing them to potentially whiff and be at a disadvantage (or get hit.)

    Yes, you’re correct, there is no drawback to facehugging against a person who will simply stand and attempt to parry you indefinitely.

    The whole problem around facehugging revolves around abusing the real time combat system for the most optimal way of getting around opponents’ defenses. I say abusing because you are manipulating the tracers on your weapon to go around what would normally be perfectly acceptable parries or you are just starting your tracers inside/much closer to someone’s hitbox.

    What are you defining as perfectly acceptable? I’m not sure what you’re implying here. I’ll assume you mean facing the opponent’s weapon at the point of contact. But if that’s the case, the person featured in this video failed to do so on each of his hits. The only even slightly questionable one (to me) is the final kill hit, where the swing was questionably out of windup, but this can be explained with latency issues, or simply that he wasn’t out of windup.

    The point of the video is that parrying attacks gets pretty weird up close, which is only one problem from face hugging.

    Well I simply missed the point. It didn’t look weird to me. Fighting up close is fast and furious, as it should be, in my opinion. Those were all hits that could have been better reacted to.

    Let’s not dwell on the video too much and get back on topic. I’m sure there will always be some facehugging in game since putting up invisible walls around players isn’t likely to happen. The devs have said they want to cut down on face hugging so let us come up with some solutions to help them.

    Yes, that’s reasonable, but I don’t think facehugging should be “nerfed”, I’d say give us better tools to help combat the use of it slightly, or better yet, give people an idea of where to actually block attacks at close range. Because the blocking tutorial really doesn’t cut it. I see many rank 35+ people who still can’t block properly at close range. The problem is traversing the skill gap it requires to block 1h at close range.



  • @Derpasaur:

    @Dr.Nick:

    I would say facehugging is pretty low risk for the attacker/aggressor since you tend to have to block a lot less which is where the real time combat system becomes a disadvantage for one person.

    I should have been clearer, I was suggesting that if you try to facehug, you expose yourself to facehugging tactics. The player in the video is approaching the opponent’s right side (toward him) during most of his hits.

    Also with the buff to sprinting (being able to initiate sprint during a parry), you can afford yourself a lot more room than you could before, causing them to potentially whiff and be at a disadvantage (or get hit.)

    Yes, you’re correct, there is no drawback to facehugging against a person who will simply stand and attempt to parry you indefinitely.

    The whole problem around facehugging revolves around abusing the real time combat system for the most optimal way of getting around opponents’ defenses. I say abusing because you are manipulating the tracers on your weapon to go around what would normally be perfectly acceptable parries or you are just starting your tracers inside/much closer to someone’s hitbox.

    What are you defining as perfectly acceptable? I’m not sure what you’re implying here. I’ll assume you mean facing the opponent’s weapon at the point of contact. But if that’s the case, the person featured in this video failed to do so on each of his hits. The only even slightly questionable one (to me) is the final kill hit, where the swing was questionably out of windup, but this can be explained with latency issues, or simply that he wasn’t out of windup.

    @bk0712v0:

    The point of the video is that parrying attacks gets pretty weird up close, which is only one problem from face hugging.

    Well I simply missed the point. It didn’t look weird to me. Fighting up close is fast and furious, as it should be, in my opinion. Those were all hits that could have been better reacted to.

    Let’s not dwell on the video too much and get back on topic. I’m sure there will always be some facehugging in game since putting up invisible walls around players isn’t likely to happen. The devs have said they want to cut down on face hugging so let us come up with some solutions to help them.

    Yes, that’s reasonable, but I don’t think facehugging should be “nerfed”, I’d say give us better tools to help combat the use of it slightly, or better yet, give people an idea of where to actually block attacks at close range. Because the blocking tutorial really doesn’t cut it. I see many rank 35+ people who still can’t block properly at close range. The problem is traversing the skill gap it requires to block 1h at close range.

    This post, so much.



  • This game ceases to change (still) because of a select few idiots that want to stagnate it.



  • @MUSASHI:

    This game ceases to change (still) because of a select few idiots that want to stagnate it.

    If only we all just went on the forums to badmouth and troll, then, just maybe, the game would be fixed by now.



  • @Dr.Nick:

    I would say facehugging is pretty low risk for the attacker/aggressor

    Agreed. I play vanguard and when I’m 1 on 1 with a player I am consistetly unable to defeat by conventional means, I change to shortsword or dane axe and facehug him. Works like a charm usually. Most of the time, I manage to kill the opponent and if I don’t I deal much more damage to him then while keeping my distance with a 2H weapon. Feels pretty gamey and cheap, usually I am not very proud of myself but if the necessity arises, I am prepared to take the blame.

    I should have been clearer, I was suggesting that if you try to facehug, you expose yourself to facehugging tactics. The player in the video is approaching the opponent’s right side (toward him) during most of his hits.

    Yes and no. Facehugging takes advantage of faster weapons, so you are right for example when a MaA meets a knight with nordic sword (but still the maa can dodge out of range). But with some rare exceptions (claymore, probably some knight axe), 2H weapons are too slow to present a real danger for the facehugger. And of course, 2H weapons do not go around parries half as easy as the 1H weapons.



  • Also there’s a strong chance he is tacking advantage of an exploit that’s come to light, considering I can see that there are users of said exploit in the server in that video.

    If that’s the case, then this is an argument for exploit fixes, not good or bad blocking.

    @Eleshar_Vermillion:

    @Dr.Nick:

    I would say facehugging is pretty low risk for the attacker/aggressor

    Agreed. I play vanguard and when I’m 1 on 1 with a player I am consistetly unable to defeat by conventional means, I change to shortsword or dane axe and facehug him. Works like a charm usually. Most of the time, I manage to kill the opponent and if I don’t I deal much more damage to him then while keeping my distance with a 2H weapon. Feels pretty gamey and cheap, usually I am not very proud of myself but if the necessity arises, I am prepared to take the blame.

    I should have been clearer, I was suggesting that if you try to facehug, you expose yourself to facehugging tactics. The player in the video is approaching the opponent’s right side (toward him) during most of his hits.

    Yes and no. Facehugging takes advantage of faster weapons, so you are right for example when a MaA meets a knight with nordic sword (but still the maa can dodge out of range). But with some rare exceptions (claymore, probably some knight axe), 2H weapons are too slow to present a real danger for the facehugger. And of course, 2H weapons do not go around parries half as easy as the 1H weapons.

    2H have their own advantages and disadvantages, and I don’t think it’s reflected in your post very well.

    Certain 1h weapon’s animations are so poorly telegraphed that it makes it easier to conceal and get a hit on you, but I would recommend adjusting those weapons, not facehugging itself.


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