Face Hugging (and close Tracer Manipulation) Balance Debate



  • I just kill them before they get in my face.



  • @Eleshar_Vermillion:

    I play vanguard and when I’m 1 on 1 with a player I am consistetly unable to defeat by conventional means, I change to shortsword or dane axe and facehug him. Works like a charm usually. Most of the time, I manage to kill the opponent and if I don’t I deal much more damage to him then while keeping my distance with a 2H weapon. Feels pretty gamey and cheap, usually I am not very proud of myself but if the necessity arises, I am prepared to take the blame.

    @Anonymoose:

    You have a secondary weapon for a reason. The fact that the players you often face do not know how to aim their blocks and will always fall to 1 handed weapons, doesn’t instantly mean its broken or cheap, they misjudged where and how the weapon would connect with them. If I am having trouble against someone with a certain weapon, I will usually try to find a way to defeat them with that weapn anyway,

    Devising a strategy is one thing, resort always to facehugging is another. I have never ever met a player that was able to counter it properly, especially with a 2H weapon (and once I am close, changing weapons is suicide). And I would like to highlight that although I do have rank 40, I have achieved it almost exclusively as a vanguard, so I am pretty shitty (hey, that rhymes, so I must be right!) 1H fighter.

    @Anonymoose:

    I can go around shields/blocks just as easy from a safer distance with a 2h weapon with proper mouse dragging than I can with facehug 1h.

    That’s really very nice. But I don’t encounter many people with this kind of ability. Blocking 2H weapons has always given me infinitely less trouble and moreover only in extremely rare circumstances I am not able to determine why I got hit (you can see clever mousedragging, leaning, even the spears’ ghost feint looking like and extremely prolonged windup is identifiable from hindsight).
    While 1H weapons at facehug range are very aptly described there:
    @Dr.Nick:

    The whole reason people have problems with facehugging is that it breaks from how the game works normally. You are manipulating your tracers to get around parry boxes and from the defender’s perspective it looks like those swings that got through SHOULD have been blocked. Even when you know how the game works you will still have those awkward swings that get around your defense not from your lack of accuracy but because the tracers do not reflect what is happening on your screen.

    To which I would like to add that sometimes I manage to get to a reversed situation, I deal hits and I can clearly see that at least some of them should have been blocked.

    Third issue is turning “too far”. Sometimes I move the mouse too much and ass a result turn too much. Yet I manage to parry the attack succesfully even though I did not even see the stupid weapon on my screen. There is even a video about it showing a guy bloking the scimitar and its point is visible only in the right down corner. It’s preposterous that those parries are valid while not turning enough is not.



  • To everyone in this thread complaining about facehugging, this is what I imagine you do:

    “Stand still and fight.”

    People learned to facehug over time, more people will start to learn what to do against it.
    Weapons with extreme range (ala 2handers), especially spears are the way to counter it (not pitchfork that thing is ass), keep your distance, etc.

    And if they do get in facehug range, parry/block them on the first hit and they usually shit their pants, thinking “now what do i do?” Just train yourself to block correctly, it really isn’t that hard to get used to, assuming your reaction time isn’t slower than the average tortoise.

    Keep in mind if you block their first attack, NOW THEY ARE IN FACEHUG RANGE OF YOU. Being in facehug range isn’t a no-risk fucking mechanic, it has the same effect for the attacker too. So rather people figure out how to fight against, enough people will complain about it until your average noob can just look straight ahead and block any attack without having to aim.

    I will GUARANTEE people that know how to block still baffled about why facehuggers get through their block won’t see it this way after they fix the alternate swing animation bug. That is most of the factor for unblockable attacks, rather than facehug attacks being unblockable. You don’t always see it happen too, because it doesn’t happen for only feints, but ANY queued attack.



  • @Bloodhead:

    @NabsterHax:

    @Daiyuki:

    The problem is that those were standard attacks, so a standard block should be fine. The kind of blocks seen in the video work in most cases, then all of a sudden the same block doesn’t.

    It’s obvious to me in that video that the player is not putting out precise blocks. Sometimes you’ll get lucky, obviously, and get a parry anyway but they were no where near as good as they could have been.

    What on earth are you talking about man. Out of the 4 attacks, only the second should have been a hit. Number 1 was pretty good, numbers 3 and 4 seem damn near perfect to me. I don’t suppose there’s a chance the footage was taken before the patch, when close range blocking was bugged?

    Basing your argument on the notion that those parries were bad is just horrendous.

    I agree, they looked okay to me (considering bad tracers, he was obviously aimed too far away if everything wasn’t so screwy). The successful parry, on the other hand, looked stupid. You’re telling me blocking into air is fine when blocking the weapon itself is not? That is a strong argument at how retarded the system is right now. If it is counter intuitive, something is wrong.



  • I think it’s humorous to see people trying to defend the current facehugging parry mechanics.

    The best way to parry in this game is to not look at the swing at all and look straight up in the air in the general direction of the swing. Magical this make the parries always work.

    Now this is the tutorial on chivaly combat when attacking look at the ground and when defending look at the sky. :P



  • @NoVaLombardia:

    To everyone in this thread complaining about facehugging, this is what I imagine you do:

    “Stand still and fight.”

    People learned to facehug over time, more people will start to learn what to do against it.
    Weapons with extreme range (ala 2handers), especially spears are the way to counter it (not pitchfork that thing is ass), keep your distance, etc.

    You imagine wrong. There is no way of keeping distance. Backwards walking is slower than forwards walking. And then there is sprinting. One, at most two blocks are enough to get in facehug range. That’s my primary issue with facehugging - you can’t keep distance (at least not from a certain skill level of the opponent… I would say level 25-30 MaA and Knight).

    There is only one way to keep distance - sometimes when you hit an enemy and he parries, he also gets bounced back a little bit and staggered for a very short time, which allows you to restore the distance. But I have not yet discovered when and why this happens. It certainly does not work with a spear. Sometimes it seems to work with a halberd or Zweihander.

    I have proposed repeatedly that something like that could be the solution for the facehugging problem, i.e. leave the facehugging as it is but make it a little bit more difficult against 2H weapons. Right now, facehugging is low-skill, moderate-risk and high-reward strategy but more reliable bouncing the enemy back would make it a moderate-skill, high-reward strategy.
    But nobody seems to react or give feedback :x

    And if they do get in facehug range, parry/block them on the first hit and they usually shit their pants, thinking “now what do i do?”

    No they don’t. They usually keep attacking. And so do I when I facehug.

    Keep in mind if you block their first attack, NOW THEY ARE IN FACEHUG RANGE OF YOU.

    And what? Facehugging doesn’t work with 2H weapons (well maybe with a bardiche because of the buggy tracers). Against a 2H weapon, you don’t have to turn so much for some reason.

    Moreover there are several options that can happen with a 2H weapon at that range:

    1. Parry-Riposte - you got hit during your windup because the 1H weapon is so much faster.
    2. Change weapon - you die.
    3. Turtle - parry so long that an ally manages to reach you and relieve you or you lose your stamina and die during the short stagger.


  • @The:

    @NabsterHax:

    @David:

    This video really highlights what’s wrong with face hugging. Having to turn that much to block an attack from the front is just absurd and it’s something that no one will realise without putting in a lot of time studying attack tracers or viewing guides on how to play properly. So you end up with most people seeing attacks like this as completely unblockable because of the outlandish movements that are required to actually block them.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hK0KwR8qBlo

    Making it so that every newb who can press m2 can block any attack as along as they are facing their opponent is not a good thing.

    Keeping it difficult is fine. Making it so it visually makes intuitive sense however, should be of critical importance. Reduce the time a parry is active for so you have to time it more accurately, but decrease how far you have to turn to parry attacks from facehugging range. This will preserve blocking difficulty in a different way, while fixing the inconsistency with blocking.

    You are spot on with the intuitive visuals, but while I support the decrease in difficulty of aiming, I don’t know about decreasing parry time. Remember, latency is critical in this game and the game’s servers are generally subpar, so this could cause lots of problems for people. That being said, having to aim into the AIR to block a weapon is ludicrous and should have been hotfixed a long time ago.



  • @Eleshar_Vermillion:

    You imagine wrong. There is no way of keeping distance. Backwards walking is slower than forwards walking.

    You have a sprint button too… USE IT. That’s what zoners always do against me. Learn to dance, its much more risky to chase a dancer as a facehugger.

    As a MAA, and even moose knows this, against someone with a 1-shot weapon against a MAA, one wrong move and boom, im dead. You can’t say facehug is low-risk at that point.

    Dealing with knight facehuggers is much easier than MAA ones, because their speed is much slower, you can dance around them much easier. Depending on the weapon the MAA uses, you can gauge the way you have to dance with them as well. Is he using that ever so hated hatchet? Good!, hatchet’s range is pitiful, exploit it, especially when the opponent has 80+ ping, they have to asshug just to hit you with it. Broadsword is a bit tougher to dance with. But you get the idea (or not, im not that optimistic).

    Also, one of my clanmates, SiN, i can almost never get him to break without feints. He almost never panic parries against me, especially against my pseudo feints, and does a very good job at parrying my facehug shit.



  • Nick you’re a mod now why are there still two threads on the same topic?
    why did you even make the second thread at all?



  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hK0KwR8qBlo

    This is a perfect example of how inaccurate the animations can be in comparison to the tracers. Obviously, something is wrong when the game tells you to put the tip of their weapon at the middle of your screen to perfectly block, and that’s clearly not the case with certain weapons. Not everyone has learned how to block these certain weapons and that doesn’t mean they are noobs. Realistically, blocking should happen when your weapon clashes with another, not just at the tip. That’s the problem. People play this game and expect the blocking to be designed properly but are disappointed when their blocks do nothing and stop playing. Even I have stopped playing as much due to this facehug meta. Chivalry should be much more than that.



  • Hello, didn’t read the thread.

    From the OP it is pretty obvious that the guy blocking was failing due to being too late in the block. In a perfect world with no latency they probably would have been fine.

    However, you need to factor in the slight lag that is inherent with internet play. As far as the server is concerned the parrying player input was too late to parry the blow, hence the attacks getting through. The parrying player needs to parry roughly 50-100ms earlier, so that his command reaches the server before the attacking players weapon hits the parrying player, not just after…

    One of the hardest concepts to get through to newer players of internet games is what happens on the game server is not necessarily what happens on the client computer. Us older gamers grew up with 300ms pings in our internet games, this gave us plenty of examples of how different the server state can be compared to client. As the latency reduces the examples grow more subtle.



  • @Toll:

    From the OP it is pretty obvious that the guy blocking was failing due to being too late in the block. In a perfect world with no latency they probably would have been fine.

    However, you need to factor in the slight lag that is inherent with internet play. As far as the server is concerned the parrying player input was too late to parry the blow, hence the attacks getting through. The parrying player needs to parry roughly 50-100ms earlier, so that his command reaches the server before the attacking players weapon hits the parrying player, not just after.

    9001 upvotes if it were possible.



  • @Ruku:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hK0KwR8qBlo

    This is a perfect example of how inaccurate the animations can be in comparison to the tracers. Obviously, something is wrong when the game tells you to put the tip of their weapon at the middle of your screen to perfectly block, and that’s clearly not the case with certain weapons. Not everyone has learned how to block these certain weapons and that doesn’t mean they are noobs. Realistically, blocking should happen when your weapon clashes with another, not just at the tip. That’s the problem. People play this game and expect the blocking to be designed properly but are disappointed when their blocks do nothing and stop playing. Even I have stopped playing as much due to this facehug meta. Chivalry should be much more than that.

    This is a perfect example of how generous the blocking system can be, you don’t need to turn that far the falchion, but you CAN.



  • @NoVaLombardia:

    @Eleshar_Vermillion:

    You imagine wrong. There is no way of keeping distance. Backwards walking is slower than forwards walking.

    You have a sprint button too… USE IT. That’s what zoners always do against me. Learn to dance, its much more risky to chase a dancer as a facehugger.

    As a MAA, and even moose knows this, against someone with a 1-shot weapon against a MAA, one wrong move and boom, im dead. You can’t say facehug is low-risk at that point.

    Dealing with knight facehuggers is much easier than MAA ones, because their speed is much slower, you can dance around them much easier. Depending on the weapon the MAA uses, you can gauge the way you have to dance with them as well. Is he using that ever so hated hatchet? Good!, hatchet’s range is pitiful, exploit it, especially when the opponent has 80+ ping, they have to asshug just to hit you with it. Broadsword is a bit tougher to dance with. But you get the idea (or not, im not that optimistic).

    Also, one of my clanmates, SiN, i can almost never get him to break without feints. He almost never panic parries against me, especially against my pseudo feints, and does a very good job at parrying my facehug shit.

    After an attack with a 2h against you, which you’d most certainly block, sometimes there’s a pushback where I can keep on sprinting off to prevent you from just rushing to facehugging range; but this is risky, and prevents stamina regeneration while in this dance. I’ve seen people do this many times against me and I almost always manage to ping them with a fast counter attack.

    Eventually, you will get within range. If, for example, I use the SoW, this is a two hit weapon vs maa (often 3 hit as it’s rare to get 2 consecutive hits on a good Maa) and 3-4 hit weapon vs knight. All I have going for me is minor dragging potential and quick counter attacks. Up close, it’s still very easy to parry any 2H besides the bardiche and sometimes the maul for some reason.

    That’s not quite balanced. Certainly not for skill…

    Client side hit detection is quite a problem for this. You have to turn so far behind you, so fast, before your enemy hits you on his screen (information has to travel to you saying he’s attacking, you have to turn quite far, parry and then send this information back to him before it counts) without knowing from which direction the swing will come from, or if it’s from above. Well, you get the idea. This is very difficult for the risk involved. The worst case is when this tactic is employed with a shield. Getting into facehugging range with a shield is comically easy.

    All in all, you simply shouldn’t have to turn so far to block a swing from close range. Some weapons are still very fast, yet have significant reach, thus forcing you to turn so far. I’ve had acceleration bugs on my camera where I turned a full 180 degrees by mistake while trying to block, and it worked. Obviously there’s a “bubble” activate when you block which goes all ways, so I’m sure this would still have worked if it was closer… but not by that much.



  • @NoVaLombardia:

    You have a sprint button too… USE IT. That’s what zoners always do against me. Learn to dance, its much more risky to chase a dancer as a facehugger.

    Turning back to a facehugger means more or less a free hit. And you surely do know about the chasing mechanics, don’t you. At that distance it is impossible to safely disengage.

    @Derpasaur:

    This is a perfect example of how generous the blocking system can be, you don’t need to turn that far the falchion, but you CAN.

    The problem is the system is that generous if you turn overmuch (where it does not really make sense because you don’t hit the weapon with the parry) but is much less generous if you don’t turn enough (where it would make sense because the weapon clearly come into contact).

    @The:

    After an attack with a 2h against you, which you’d most certainly block, sometimes there’s a pushback where I can keep on sprinting off to prevent you from just rushing to facehugging range;

    Yes. This. I haven’t got a clue on what conditions the pushback happens. Sometimes it pushes people unexpectedly (and annoyingly) far, sometimes it does not happen at all.



  • @Eleshar_Vermillion:

    @NoVaLombardia:

    You have a sprint button too… USE IT. That’s what zoners always do against me. Learn to dance, its much more risky to chase a dancer as a facehugger.

    Turning back to a facehugger means more or less a free hit. And you surely do know about the chasing mechanics, don’t you. At that distance it is impossible to safely disengage.

    Not if you dance properly. Of course, if you start to fight toe-to-toe you’re pretty much locked like that, but if you dance properly, using the range of your weapon well and being evasive it can be very effective.



  • Dancing is extrmely effective, chasing the good players that do this will usually have you playing right into their hands as they start their windup and spin around for an accelerated attack in your face

    I find the best strategy is to simply not give chase



  • The problem isnt face hugging in itself, the problem is the sprint broken mechanic currently at place.



  • This is an example of poor blocking, not poor game mechanics.

    I’d say it’s an example of poor game mechanics because he SHOULD block attacks as long as he’s blocking anything between cross-guard and top of the sword.

    The closer someone is to you, the more you have to block to your sides because the game “thinks” attack is successful as long as top of the blade goes through. It is even more silly when you’re using shields - it doesn’t matter how big it is, you still have to block sides regardless of having a solid shield wall between you and enemy.

    Another problem are lookdown overheads and stabs: you’re so close to the enemy that is some cases you bypass his block/parry and speed up your attack to the point that release doesn’t matter due to proximity between weapon and enemy.



  • @Holy.Death:

    The closer someone is to you, the more you have to block to your sides because the game “thinks” attack is successful

    the game thinks the attack is successful because for the attacker the attack was successful
    the game trusts the attacker more than the blocker is what’s happening here

    here’s an example:
    I purposefully whiffed a stab attack, then combo’d in a slash and killed the enemy
    the enemy had actually parried my stab attack, and saw me in the parried idle animation, the following slash on my part was completely unexpected and shouldn’t have been possible in their game
    but completely possible in mine

    @Holy.Death:

    Another problem are lookdown overheads and stabs: you’re so close to the enemy that is some cases you bypass his block/parry and speed up your attack to the point that release doesn’t matter due to proximity between weapon and enemy.

    you can’t bypass shields or parries
    if any part of the tracers hit the block before it hits the player, the weapon will be blocked, that is all there is to it

    the actual problem with lookdown overhands is that they are really fast, meaning you are acting too slow to block them

    and concerning stabs, they have very skinny tracers, making them hit around blocks and parries very easily


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