Simple way to fix votekick



  • Being votekicked for no reason is a common problem.

    The fix is very simple - if someone has done nothing wrong, do not allow them to be votekicked.
    **
    Dont let a votekick be initiated on anyone with below 10% Team damage or under 20seconds of afk time.**

    ?-but what if someone is spamming chat / expressing unpopular opinions -?

    My first instinct is to say you should deal with it, but sometimes chat spam can get annoying. Which is why there is a Votemute option, which could be used on people who have done no tking/afking. Stopping them from using voicechat or textchat.



  • That would be catastrophic. There are so many ways to grief that doesn’t involve idling or doing damage to your teammates and if this change happens you will see them all.



  • @Helgeran:

    That would be catastrophic. There are so many ways to grief that doesn’t involve idling or doing damage to your teammates and if this change happens you will see them all.

    Such as what?

    The votekick system shouldn’t be viewed as a ‘catch all’ to solve every problem/issue the game has. Especially since in its current state, it really does do more to hamper and annoy legitimate players than help anyone. I see people get kicked for no reason all the time, sometimes i vote yes as well. People are terrible, fickle, bad, jealous, angry creatures. especially when they get beaten in a game.

    And it can actually make getting hackers banned harder, if they’re votekicked rather than an admin/mod called. And I’m sure people that are not hacking get votekicked for hacking much more than actual hackers. And if someone is doing something wrong without tking (hacking perhaps) you can attack them, and if they attack back their team damage will rise, and if the server is aware of the issue they will be kicked.

    Hacking is the only obvious issue that comes to mind. If you’re also thinking of people using map glitches the response to that isnt votekicking its patching the map glitches.



  • Well I think that democracy should rule even though it means unfair responses.

    Also whilst it would be nice to think that hackers would be dealt with by server admins, the truth is that admins can’t be on a server 24/7 so sometimes the only option is to votekick.

    Same thing with map exploits, removing the exploit is clearly the best resolution but TB are a small studio so in the meantime being able to votekick someone who is exploiting some known glitch is the only sensible option right now (one such glitch is where the king is Stoneshill can jump past the ramps onto the balcony where the ballistas are, becoming unkillable).

    Lastly there are some forms of team damage that do not appear in the Team Damage % calculation such as: kicking people off things to their death, damage from catapult, fire from the flamethrowers in arena (actually I think don’t think firepots do proper team damage either) etc.

    I’ve already seen griefers use these exploits so they can troll servers and make life horrible for players but don’t get votekicked.



  • @Dr:

    Well I think that democracy should rule even though it means unfair responses.

    I fundamentally disagree, the unrestrained tyranny of the unwashed majority is far more toxic than isolated hacker incidents.

    In real life democracy is the best possible option. Its by no means a good option, but there isn’t anything better available. In the game something better IS available, the devs are gods with the capacity to re-write virtual reality.

    They put the votekick mechanic in, then tweaked it by increasing the threshold to limit random kicks. That wasn’t enough. Its time for a more sensible option. If someone is neither tking nor afk, there is simply no significant reason to kick them. If they’re hacking and you kick them they just go to another server and expose more players to the hacker, and negatively impact the games of more people. The correct response is to call an admin to the server, deal with it, or instigate TKING so that he can be votekicked. Maybe a 10% immunity is too high, perhaps 5%.

    The proper response to hacking is anti hack software, community ridicule, and bans from official servers/VAC bans, whatever.

    And, i see hackers so incredibly rarely, where as i see people get kicked for no reason literally every day, often multiple times. Sometimes i’m the one instigating the kick too. Sometimes i randomly start kicks and people will vote yes. As a general rule of thumb at least 50% vote yes reguardless of who you votekick.



  • @JCash:

    @Dr:

    Sometimes i randomly start kicks and people will vote yes. As a general rule of thumb at least 50% vote yes reguardless of who you votekick.

    If you have a problem with it perhaps you should steer clear of BEING that problem? No offense intended at you, but… to complain about something you yourself do is kind of odd.

    The other day I was playing an LTS match in the ruins and having a good time. Some guy joined, played MAA, and went down into the water, and ducked while looking down. This made him all but invisible to the enemy (he was completely submerged underwater). When we were all killed the enemy team would look around for him, and couldn’t find him. After we told them he was hiding in the water they began looking there and he would jump up and attack guys when they were by themselves with their back turned.

    Long story short he ran the time of every LTS round to the rather long limit and still had us lose (he couldn’t kill them all with their backs turned, I only saw him kill maybe 1-2). This was fun for only 1 of the 32 people playing, and was detrimental to the server so we asked him to stop. He did not, so we kicked him.

    If something is being done that is causing the game to not be fun, rather than evacuate a server (because eventually people start leaving) why not just get rid of the one problem? I have NEVER been votekicked without a reason (only been votekicked twice I can recall). 75-85% of the votekicks I see fail anyway, even after 30-40% team damage.



  • @Helgeran:

    That would be catastrophic. There are so many ways to grief that doesn’t involve idling or doing damage to your teammates and if this change happens you will see them all.

    @JCash:

    Such as what?

    • kicking people around (just to piss them, to stagger them, to kick them from a high place, to kick them from a siege engin,…)
    • using firepots because they don’t add up to your damage dealt
    • idle running around (the same as AFK, i.e. unbalancing the game)
    • hiding during LTS and TD
    • playing a forbidden class (for example archer on Low Gravity Chaos - the class is disabled, yet due to a glitch, you can manage to choose it)
    • speedhacking
    • harassing people with voicechat
    • initiating unwanted votes (e.g. votechangemap)
    • leaking team strategy to the enemy through chat
    • abusing map glitches

    USE YOUR EFFIN’ IMAGINASHUN, MAN!



  • @Eleshar_Vermillion:

    @Helgeran:

    That would be catastrophic. There are so many ways to grief that doesn’t involve idling or doing damage to your teammates and if this change happens you will see them all.

    @JCash:

    Such as what?

    • kicking people around (just to piss them, to stagger them, to kick them from a high place, to kick them from a siege engin,…)
    • using firepots because they don’t add up to your damage dealt
    • idle running around (the same as AFK, i.e. unbalancing the game)
    • hiding during LTS and TD
    • playing a forbidden class (for example archer on Low Gravity Chaos - the class is disabled, yet due to a glitch, you can manage to choose it)
    • speedhacking
    • harassing people with voicechat
    • initiating unwanted votes (e.g. votechangemap)
    • leaking team strategy to the enemy through chat
    • abusing map glitches

    USE YOUR EFFIN’ IMAGINASHUN, MAN!

    I think you need to stop using your imagination because none of those points are good.

    1. happens anyway, and votekick insnt the entire solution to that just have kicks off of high places count as team damage / kills and you can votekick them after they do it. And again, this happens anyway and when you get kicked from behind you cant even see the person doing it.
    2. Sounds like firepots not adding up for team damage is the issue with that point.
    3. This happens anyway. Extremely rarely, people dont get enjoyment out of running around doing nothing.
    4. Find and kill them. The issue before was that the draw timer existed, now that the team with more people wins, who cares. Hiding/jumping out and fighting is a legitimate strat. and this is a good point i’m glad you brought it up - i see the last dude alive in LTS get kicked for hiding (while they heal before re-engaging) or hiding while they try to set up an ambush.
    5. Retarded point, again the solution is to fix the glitch not votekick.
    6. I already addressed this, can you not read? Firstly, the answer to hackers is anti hack software not votekicking. The correct response is to call an admin in from the steam group if its an official server and get them banned. Fraps the speed hacker. Find his steam id. Kicking him from the server does what? Lets him go to another server and annoy more people. Hop around ruining game after game. Maybe isolating them to one server till someone with the brains to fraps it / call an admin is a better idea.
    7. **I already addressed this too, I’m going with no - you can’t read.
      **That is what votemute is for. Not votekick, or muting them personally. The correct response is not to votekick.

    I will state again, there are two things for which the APPROPRIATE RESPONSE is to votekick

    1. TKING

    2. Afk
      That is it. Two things. Those are the things the votekick mechanic is in the game to prevent and deal with because there is no other method of effectively tackling those issues. There ARE effective, MORE effective methods of dealing with each of the issues you keep bringing up, than votekick. To say votekick is the answer to these problems is lazy and poor design. Period.

    3. This is just a dumb example. Votes would become a lot less annoying if the vote icon disappeared off your screen after you voted. Besides the servers limit how often one person can institute a vote, votekick isnt the answer to this problem.

    As another aside, when i look at your logic and I see how you want to use votekick to solve every abiguous situation in the game, i can see why people get votekicked for no reason, if you have this huge mental list of activities they could be doing that deserve a kick. For the record, again, there are 2 things

    1. afk

    2. tking that deserve a votekick.

    3. Dumb example, what is wrong with you? ‘leaking team strategy’ in a pub match when strategy doesnt really exist?

    4. The correct response is to patch out the map glitches.

    –---------------



  • Votekick is fine. I’ve been kicked exactly one time in two months, and that was because I hit back a griefer. (You know, the ones who wouldn’t be kickable under your system.)
    Sounds to me like you’re doing something that makes people want to kick you.
    Whatever, you aren’t interested in other people’s opinions so I’ll just say:
    Ain’t broke, quit bitchin’



  • @BillDoor:

    Votekick is fine. I’ve been kicked exactly one time in two months, and that was because I hit back a griefer. (You know, the ones who wouldn’t be kickable under your system.)
    Sounds to me like you’re doing something that makes people want to kick you.
    Whatever, you aren’t interested in other people’s opinions so I’ll just say:
    Ain’t broke, quit bitchin’

    Just today i was in an LTS map and over the course of my 3 hour play session i saw 4 people kicked for what i would view as absolutely no reason. No tking, not afk, not hacking.

    Its clearly broken, and also, if you have only been votekicked once in two months

    I doubt you play all that well. And there are numerous other threads pointing out that others have issue with the votekick system.

    I seriously do see people kicked OFTEN for no reason at all.



  • @BillDoor:

    Votekick is fine. I’ve been kicked exactly one time in two months, and that was because I hit back a griefer. (You know, the ones who wouldn’t be kickable under your system.)
    Sounds to me like you’re doing something that makes people want to kick you.
    Whatever, you aren’t interested in other people’s opinions so I’ll just say:
    Ain’t broke, quit bitchin’

    Just today i was in an LTS map and over the course of my 3 hour play session i saw 4 people kicked for what i would view as absolutely no reason. No tking, not afk, not hacking.

    Its clearly broken, and also, if you have only been votekicked once in two months

    I doubt you play all that well. And there are numerous other threads pointing out that others have issue with the votekick system.

    I seriously do see people kicked OFTEN for no reason at all.



  • @JCash:

    Just today i was in an LTS map and over the course of my 3 hour play session i saw 4 people kicked for what i would view as absolutely no reason. No tking, not afk, not hacking.

    Its clearly broken, and also, if you have only been votekicked once in two months

    I doubt you play all that well. And there are numerous other threads pointing out that others have issue with the votekick system.

    I seriously do see people kicked OFTEN for no reason at all.

    Ok but your solution is not good enough to implement - too many other reasons someone should be kicked.

    I’ve been kicked unfairly maybe once or twice in 400 hours. I would like to get to the elite level where I get kicked more for being too good, maybe one day.



  • @gregcau:

    @JCash:

    Just today i was in an LTS map and over the course of my 3 hour play session i saw 4 people kicked for what i would view as absolutely no reason. No tking, not afk, not hacking.

    Its clearly broken, and also, if you have only been votekicked once in two months

    I doubt you play all that well. And there are numerous other threads pointing out that others have issue with the votekick system.

    I seriously do see people kicked OFTEN for no reason at all.

    Ok but your solution is not good enough to implement - too many other reasons someone should be kicked.

    I’ve been kicked unfairly maybe once or twice in 400 hours. I would like to get to the elite level where I get kicked more for being too good, maybe one day.

    I also see small groups of players lock down official servers and votekick anyone who joins so they can have practices.

    My solution is the only one that makes sense. As a system the votekick should be there to deal with tkers and afkers. If someone is doing neither of those two things

    why allow them to be kicked?

    Every. single. other. issue. has a better solution that isn’t that person being votekicked.

    Being kicked for being ‘too good’ isnt the only issue. Maybe a player has an issue with another player and manages to drum up enough support to unfairly kick them. Perhaps someone is trying to stay alive in an LTS and they get votekicked. (its impossible to hide in any of the matches, people who are in spectate can call out positions)

    Votekicking is the perfect solution to the issue of afkers and tkers. Lets limit its applicability to those classes of people and as a community find better ways of dealing with the other problems, and turn votekick into a reliable tool rather than a double edged sword. Thank you and goodnight.



  • @JCash:

    Its clearly broken, and also, if you have only been votekicked once in two months I doubt you play all that well.

    Truly your intellect is dizzying.
    @JCash:

    I seriously do see people kicked OFTEN for no reason at all.

    If you change it to SOMETIMES and no IMMEDIATELY DESCERNIBLE reason then maybe.

    @JCash:

    Maybe a player has an issue with another player and manages to drum up enough support to unfairly kick them. … Votekicking is the perfect solution to the issue of afkers and tkers.

    Maybe griefers shouldn’t grief. You sound like an Agathian. :x
    AFK, maybe.
    TK, no.

    I’d say maybe give people on the team of the person being voted more of a vote, since they more likely will see the jerks being jerky.
    1.25 points per vote for teammates
    1 point per vote from opposing team



  • @JCash:

    My solution is the only one that makes sense.

    Doesn’t handle hackers.

    Goodnight



  • @gregcau:

    @JCash:

    My solution is the only one that makes sense.

    Doesn’t handle hackers.

    Goodnight

    Neither does votekicking. What happens when a hacker gets votekicked? They obviously dont particularly care about the game. Being kicked won’t slow them down that much. They just join another server and hack in it. Ruin MORE player’s experiences.

    Votekicking does nothing to curb hacking. I’m also fairly sure more people get votekicked for presumed hacking rather than actual hacking. When you add ‘hacking’ to the list of things players need to be concerned about in the context of votekicking, it will immediately cause people to be kicked that don’t deserve it, while the votekick mechanic itself doesn’t do much to solve the hacking problem.

    What solves hacking problems is anti hack software and calling global admins in to institute bans, as well as vac bans.

    Votekicking shouldnt be a catch all mechanic that solves all the game’s remaining small issues (like map glitches). Patch out the map glitches. Get robust anti hack protection (for god’s sake free games will insta ban you if you boot up cheat engine. ) Issue more bans, find a way to spread the word about admin resources or put a command in to call a global admin to a server so they can spec and issue a ban. Maybe… PAY people to be global admins and monitor the status of the game.

    But votekicking IS NOT a good way to deal with any issue except tking and afking. It just isnt, there are better mechanics for it.

    And I’m not saying all votekicks are illegitimate. Certainly most votekicks that are initiated are illegitimate. Think about that and i doubt most people will argue, MOST votekicks that are started are illegitimate. Add to that the fact that you can start an illegitimate votekick and you’ll get around half the people voting yes for no reason. Now lets say the player in question is doing really well, or there is a small group connected outside the game that doesnt like said player, or your name is ‘iisanazi’. When most people will vote yes just for shits and giggles, it doesnt take many people having dislike for someone to get them kicked. I mean, thats why the kick threshold was increased before right?
    I’d say probably 20% of votekicks that go through to a kick are illegitimate. Players do a pretty good job with the pruning out of false kicks but when you give free kicking ability some are going to make it through. And why allow that at all when its easily fixable, and the ‘issues’ you’ve brought up

    • the things votekick will no longer be able to help out with
      Are things I contend it doesn’t help with currently, with better solutions available, and it being used to patch up these issues is probably worse than establishing a more robust way of dealing with them, although less difficult. Its about how much illegitimate votekicking you think is justified, i Think its too much. I think i see too many people getting kicked for no reason. If that isn’t something approaching a consensus opinion, whatever maybe i’m off base.


  • Most of the times I have seen people kicked from the game is for high ping. Anyone think its fair/unfair to kick for high ping?



  • @Sir_Henric:

    Most of the times I have seen people kicked from the game is for high ping. Anyone think its fair/unfair to kick for high ping?

    Unfair. Because server administrators can (or at least should be able to) set ping limits for the servers.

    If the person running the server wants to make certain ping ranges acceptable that is their right. Make 150 the official server limit (its sensible) and let private servers do what they want.

    Obviously dont insta kick if their ping spikes, ping based autockick systems are well known, and would really be better than the votekick system for that specific issue. As they would be for every issue that comes to mind save tking and afks.



  • @JCash:

    1. Find and kill them. The issue before was that the draw timer existed, now that the team with more people wins, who cares. Hiding/jumping out and fighting is a legitimate strat.

    Hiding is a legitimate strategy, stalling an already decided match is not. It results in people leaving the server because nobody likes ghosting around and especially if nothing happens.

    1. I already addressed this, can you not read?

    I just didn’t read it. You asked about reasons to kick besides team damage and afk, I have found a dozen in about 3 seconds.

    1. **I already addressed this too, I’m going with no - you can’t read.
      **That is what votemute is for. Not votekick, or muting them personally. The correct response is not to votekick.

    So… the answer to someone abusing a game’s functionality is… to disable that functionality altogether? Well done!
    Someone is abusing the internets, let’s shut it down!

    1. This is just a dumb example. Votes would become a lot less annoying if the vote icon disappeared off your screen after you voted. Besides the servers limit how often one person can institute a vote, votekick isnt the answer to this problem.

    No, you are a dumb example. USE THE IMAGINASHUN, LUKE!
    It’s not about “annoying people with vote screens”, it’s about blocking the vote function, it’s about repeatedly initiating a vote for a map nobody wants or a map that does not suit the server’s focus (TO map on a dedicated duel server).

    if you have this huge mental list of activities they could be doing that deserve a kick

    I dont have no huge list, I just can imagine the ways people can piss other people off on a server. I have experienced many of them too.

    1. Dumb example, what is wrong with you? ‘leaking team strategy’ in a pub match when strategy doesnt really exist?

    I you are unable to devise and implement a suitable strategy on a public match, that’s kinda your problem. I can do that and it often works.

    1. Sounds like firepots not adding up for team damage is the issue with that point.
    2. Retarded point, again the solution is to fix the glitch not votekick.
    3. Firstly, the answer to hackers is anti hack software not votekicking.
    4. The correct response is to patch out the map glitches.

    Well, aren’t we a little Einstein…
    Yes, that would be the ideal solution but as we can see, those bugs have been there for months, some of them get slowly squashed (for example map glitches), some arise (for example new map glitches). The inevitable fact is that right now, they do exist in the game, we do have to cope with them somehow and votekick is currently often the only option we have. When (or rather if) the bugs get fixed and functionalities are added to circumvent other malicious practices, then we can talk about this again.

    addendum:
    Now that I am thinking about it, I remember a few Team Deathmatch games where a player of the other team constantly pressed F10 after spawning, suicided and significantly weakened the whole team. It seemed quite funny from my perspective but I can understand why the other team always kicked the player out.



  • @Sir_Henric:

    Most of the times I have seen people kicked from the game is for high ping. Anyone think its fair/unfair to kick for high ping?

    Oh yes, high ping and lag, how could I have forgotten. There are people who have a pretty fine ping but it turns out they get long lagspikes. Then there are the people with ping 360 who, for some unfathomable reason, don’t cause any lag whatsoever and you notice their extreme ping only at the end of the match. And then there are people with good ping but carrying a bubble of terrible lag around them for some reason.
    If they refuse to leave… well… what choice do we have.

    And just a side note for little would-be Einsteins sneaking around:
    No, autokick for high ping is not the solution, sometimes the server itself gets a stroke and causes quite long and massive lagspikes for everyone.


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