Useless weapons?



  • Before I get to the meat of the question, I’d like to say at this point that I am not an expert player. I’m pretty good, and tend to do very well in TO maps in particular, but I’m not a master at this game. So don’t take this as an attempt to school noobs in how this game works. I’m also not a particularly tactical player when it comes to weapons, it’s much more of a feel thing for me. I’m not trying to start a flame war or complain about a broken game, this is just something that I’m genuinely interested in. Here we go.

    So I’ve been thinking: how many weapons are there in this game that are pointless?

    I don’t necessarily mean that they are flat out bad, just pointless in the sense that there is another weapon available that does the exact same job, but possibly better. For example, there is no reason why you would pick the double axe over the maul, grand mace, or even poleaxe. See what I mean? The polehammer is another weapon that I’m confused about. To my understanding, the point of it is to be an anti-knight weapon, because it can two-shot knights. But if you want to two-shot knights, what exactly is wrong with the bardiche? Isn’t the bardiche just as fast and longer than the poleaxe?

    The reason why I started thinking about this is because in all honesty, I think there might be too many weapons in the game. It’s like TB drew up a huge list of weapons, and then thought “right, we have to think up unique stats for all of these”. Because if they aren’t all different, then what is the point of having so many weapons? I’m not saying that this is some kind of massive, game-breaking flaw, far from it. I just keep thinking that because of the bewildering array of weapons, we end up with some weapons with stats that don’t really make any sense, again the double axe being the clearest example.

    I think it might have been better to have fewer weapons so TB wouldn’t have to spend so much time fiddling about with every individual weapon, and could instead spend their time on bugfixes, optimization and if new content is wanted, on new maps. Having so many weapons means that a lot of time has to be spent on balancing and making sure that all of those weapons have a place. Now, I do think the game is pretty damn balanced at the moment, and it was never a horrendously broken thing in the first place, but I can’t help but think that with less weapons, TB could have spent their time on more important things.

    So anyways, what do you guys think? What are some weapons that you think have no real reason to exist? And do you think that the game would have been better served if there were fewer weapons from the start? What about weapons that are too similar to eachother to really necessitate two separate weapons?

    (Of course, I’m not suggesting that TB remove a bunch of weapons, that would be silly. I just want to discuss this stuff.)



  • Double axe is really the only weapon severely lacking

    Polehammer has a better stab than Bardiche, but that’s pretty much it

    Everything else is pretty balanced or does something at least



  • @BB:

    Double axe is really the only weapon severely lacking

    Polehammer has a better stab than Bardiche, but that’s pretty much it

    Everything else is pretty balanced or does something at least

    Hmm yes. Another thing that popped into my head are weapons that are too similar to eachother. I’ve put that into the original post as well.

    Oh yeah, I hope no one gets the idea that I’m saying we should have one class, one sword, and one shield. I like the fact that there are numerous different setups to cater to a bunch of different playstyles, but I just think that it’s like we have a bunch of solutions looking for problems.



  • Concerning weapons that are too similar the only issue I see are the Axe and Mace trees
    They could stand to be set apart a bit more



  • All new weapons (sling, quarterstaff, polehammer, both flails), fork, brandistock (you can argue about this one), hunting knife, war axe, claymore (Knight with longsowrd/sow is very similar and just better, they trade of a tiny bit of range and movement speed versus 50% more health is a no-brainer), double axe, maul( also arguable but besides the possiblity of one shotting Vgs this weapon has nothing), heavy javelin



  • @BB:

    Concerning weapons that are too similar the only issue I see are the Axe and Mace trees
    They could stand to be set apart a bit more

    D’youknow, I kind of almost think the same about the SoW/Longsword. I mean there is a definite difference, but at least in my experience playing with them is so similar that it almost doesn’t matter which you pick, at least in terms of playstyle. That being said, my experience with the SoW is relatively limited, so I don’t know how much value my observation has.

    @Falc:

    All new weapons (sling, quarterstaff, polehammer, both flails), fork, brandistock (you can argue about this one), hunting knife, war axe, claymore (Knight with longsowrd/sow is very similar and just better, they trade of a tiny bit of range and movement speed versus 50% more health is a no-brainer), double axe, maul( also arguable but besides the possiblity of one shotting Vgs this weapon has nothing), heavy javelin

    Thanks for reminding me about the new weapons:D THE FLAILS! God I completely forgot they existed, with good reason. The new weapons definitely seem to be of limited value.



  • I don’t feel the need to be so eloquent about pointing out that double-axe is useless shit that needs a damage buff and that polehammer is just a useless superfluous weapon. Right now I see this problem mainly with the new weapons added in the content update, i.e. pole-hammer, quarterstaff, sling and maybe the flails. Let’s get rid of them (they could make one of the flails maybe a tertiary knight’s weapon - it would come automatically with a buckler) and get back the good ol’ 3x3 weapon system.

    And FFS buff the stupid-axe so that I don’t have to feel so filthy every time I get killed with that shit of a weapon.



  • Was running around with the flail and pole hammer last night actually. Flails are seriously stupid weapons, however once they are buffed in some way I can see them having a niche but they will need a damage, speed and combo time buff to be in any way effective.

    Pole hammer is actually a good weapon, it’s just kind of redundant with the bardiche and halberd being in every way better. The polehammer should be super fast because it’s shorter than the other polearms.

    The double axe is a useless, stupid weapon which I would be fine with if they just removed it from the game entirely. I also hate the way it looks and how historically inaccurate it is, but that’s just me.

    However in general I like the idea of more weapons rather than less, even if the differences are only mild. It gives the game depth and flavour. For example I agree there’s little difference between the mace line of weapons but the differences are enough to justify the existence of each (although the HWS is probably in need to some adjustment). I don’t mind there being some weapons that are underpowered, as long as are still usable and have some niche purpose.


  • Developer

    I find flails useful! COuld be that people aren’t used to defending against them they are rare on the field, I hardly ever face them.



  • Flails are pretty much the only weapon from the update that I feel are actually pretty decent
    they’ll be a lot better with the beta shield fixes hopefully



  • Heavy Flail, Quarterstaff, Double Axe, Fork, Sling, Norse Sword

    ^All of the above, while I won’t say they are useless, I’ll say that they are extremely lacking and puts the player at a disadvantage when they use them.



  • There needs to be a dual-wielding class that can dual wield axes and swords, but their only way to block is being able to press LMB and RMB with 100% identical timing and have to go into battle topless and accordingly have zero armour bonus.

    I don’t think there are any “useless” weapons as someone will get their jippy off with some of them; obviously however preferences build around some core stuff and those will get most attention.
    Don’t see it as an issue.



  • @SomeDudeOnAForum:

    There needs to be a female dual-wielding class that can dual wield twohanded axes and swords, but their only way to block is being able to press LMB and RMB with 100% identical timing and have to go into battle topless and accordingly have zero armour bonus.

    Now it’s correct.



  • @Goatamon:

    D’youknow, I kind of almost think the same about the SoW/Longsword. I mean there is a definite difference, but at least in my experience playing with them is so similar that it almost doesn’t matter which you pick, at least in terms of playstyle. That being said, my experience with the SoW is relatively limited, so I don’t know how much value my observation has.

    The SoW’s stab is more powerful, while for the longsword the overhead is more powerful. Many people (including me) swear by the SoW, but it depends a lot on your playstyle as overheads and stabs are both very good fight openers. I might add, however, that the SoW kills anything less than a knight a lot faster, and even when fighting a knight you can bring it down in 3 hits (same as longsw) if you’re accurate. And there is nothing more satisfying than killing a VG in <1 second with a stab+overhead combo.



  • @Wangmaster:

    @Goatamon:

    D’youknow, I kind of almost think the same about the SoW/Longsword. I mean there is a definite difference, but at least in my experience playing with them is so similar that it almost doesn’t matter which you pick, at least in terms of playstyle. That being said, my experience with the SoW is relatively limited, so I don’t know how much value my observation has.

    The SoW’s stab is more powerful, while for the longsword the overhead is more powerful. Many people (including me) swear by the SoW, but it depends a lot on your playstyle as overheads and stabs are both very good fight openers. I might add, however, that the SoW kills anything less than a knight a lot faster, and even when fighting a knight you can bring it down in 3 hits (same as longsw) if you’re accurate. And there is nothing more satisfying than killing a VG in <1 second with a stab+overhead combo.

    That is true. I understand the messers damage output is comparable to the SoW (obviously it does a shitload more damage but its slower, so it evens out). I suppose the longsword works better for people who like to mess about with distance.

    For me, the most satisfying thing ever is a charging vanguard getting decapitated by my sidestep+alt-slash. Possibly even better is when an MAA dodges face first into the weapon:P



  • Weapons being under powered to there counterparts shouldn’t be the main reason to never use them. If you spend enough time practicing with any of the weapons and developing good strategies to use them, you’ll find they can be quite effective.
    Using the sling and switching to a dagger at the last second can fool even a high ranked player and throw them off guard completely.
    As long as you can parry and can attack with it, there are no real useless weapon imo.



  • Strong cases:

    Flails - They just got a slightly unpredictable hitbox (you will only notice if you use tracers) - other than that you basically got a shorter, slower and less damaging Morning Star (yes it’s a 100% Upgrade) and a slower and weaker Warhammer.

    Quarterstaff - The Cudgel - but slower and you need two hands to use it.

    Sling - Pitiful damage combined with low ammo (Lead - Pebble does less than pitiful damage). If you want to shoot fast - the Shortbow is better.

    Polehammer - A slow Helberd. The overhead damage is comparable, the stab weaker and the slash slighly stronger. However that does not compensate it’s slowness.

    Broadhead Arrows - Swing damage is overall weaker than piercing damage. The only use of Broadsheads is oneshotting archers with your Warbow - and even then you are overall weaker than you would be when using Bodkin arrows.

    Double Axe - The combination of slowness and shortness is not balanced out by damage. Overall the Poleaxe hits just as hard and has more reach while the Bearded Axe is faster.

    Mild cases:

    Onehanded Bastard Swords - Only slightly more damage and reach than onehanded swords but much slower.

    Flanged Mace - If you don’t utilize the better slash you are better off usng either the Holy Water Sprinkler (faster) or the morning star (more reach and damage). Having the better damage type against Knights is meaningless as the Flanged Mace lacks the damage to utilize it.

    Shortbow/Longbow - In most situations the Warbow is just better as it deals more damage with a single shot and more damage when firing and hitting at maximum fire rate. The only real advantage of the shorter bows is that you can stay closer to the fight as drawing (which cannot be interrupted for some reason) takes less time.

    Light Crossbow - A combination of the reasons above: The Light Crossbow deals less damage than the Warbow, has a slower firing rate and you must stand still to reload. In return it just offers a little more user friendliness: faster projectiles and “setup time”, infinite aiming time and a shield to cover you (if it would not just explode in 9/10 cases you want to place it). You can’t even utilize the “Crossbow Bonus” (double bonus damage on headshots) as your damage is too low. Knights survive and the other classes also die to the Warbow.

    Heavy Crossbow - The standard Crossbow does better (as it has less reload time) in every other situation but hitting a Man at Arms’ chest. This includes missing a Man at Arms’ chest. So you should only pick the Heavy Crossbow if you expect to hit a lot of Man at Arms chests.



  • Quarterstaff increases MAA’s dodge speed

    more people need to know this
    also might increase acceleration speed? I don’t know about that one though, it just feels faster



  • @Evil:

    Strong cases:

    Flails - They just got a slightly unpredictable hitbox (you will only notice if you use tracers) - other than that you basically got a shorter, slower and less damaging Morning Star (yes it’s a 100% Upgrade) and a slower and weaker Warhammer.

    Quarterstaff - The Cudgel - but slower and you need two hands to use it.

    Sling - Pitiful damage combined with low ammo (Lead - Pebble does less than pitiful damage). If you want to shoot fast - the Shortbow is better.

    Polehammer - A slow Helberd. The overhead damage is comparable, the stab weaker and the slash slighly stronger. However that does not compensate it’s slowness.
    <snip>
    Double Axe - The combination of slowness and shortness is not balanced out by damage. Overall the Poleaxe hits just as hard and has more reach while the Bearded Axe is faster.</snip>

    Agree with all of this pretty much, I don’t do enough archery to comment on the Broadhead/Bodkin arrows though.
    @Evil:

    Mild cases:

    Onehanded Bastard Swords - Only slightly more damage and reach than onehanded swords but much slower.

    I have found some uses for bastard swords. If you’re using a mace/morning star/HWS then sometimes it’s good to switch to the SoW for the range and the stabs, particularly against MaA as you’ll often still catch them after they try to dodge back or catching kiting Vanguards who think they’ve run out of your range. Basically it gives you a third weapon choice and that can be enough to throw off an enemy that has got used to your standard secondary attack. Plus you can still use it two handed.

    @Evil:

    Flanged Mace - If you don’t utilize the better slash you are better off usng either the Holy Water Sprinkler (faster) or the morning star (more reach and damage). Having the better damage type against Knights is meaningless as the Flanged Mace lacks the damage to utilize it.

    What’s “the better slash”, do you mean alt slash?
    The flanged mace has it’s own subtle niche; it’s faster than the morning star but you don’t have to facehug as with the HWS. I think it is a little weird that it has a crappy stab and the slash and overhead do the same damage though. The overhead should probably do more damage than the slash.



  • Flanged mace is best mace. That alt slash, man, that thumbtack stab, man.