In depth Balancing and combat
Ok, i’m back to make far more in depth suggestions on balancing
So I’ve now put alot more hours into Chivalry and mainly sword fighting hours… So I am going to make yet another positive and negative list but this time more in depth…
Positives - so Chivalry on the surface for new players almost feels basic when it comes to combat, even though chivalry promised a very in depth combat system… But fear not, there actually is a very in depth combat system, you just have to use it… Alot of these moves aren’t used at all by other players, especially the duck dodge… I do it all the time, and it is one of my secrets to a good counter because my blade hasn’t been raised to block or strike, and i didn’t do a double tap dodge which stops your character for a moment. So i have a fast strike after i duck… The best way to use it is to look strait down, you cant see if the enemy missed or not but believe me he did ( only for swings, not overhands and stabs ). Also using jump with an attack, this will easily get you around an unsuspecting shield wielder… Jump and overhand and you will get him before he knows what happened… Duck dodge, jumping overhand, combined with double tap dodges and parries is a pretty deep combat mechanic if its used… Now to the balancing issues
( balancing issues ) -
1 handed axe - so what i’ve noticed is that the short axe despite being my favorite weapon is a bit to strong for its speed… I usually 2 hit people with it while the poor broad sword is far to weak compared to other weapons… There is absolutely no reason to pick the broad sword because it takes about 5 hits to kill someone while the axe is 1 or 2… So I think they both need to be adjusted a bit maybe to the point where axe takes 2-3 hits and broad sword 3-4… I mean ask anyone who has played alot, really a MAA ( axe ) vs MAA ( broad sword ) is unmatched, the axe will always win…
Now onto the spears - it apears the great sword, and bardiche ( despite the stamina inbalance, which makes large weapons to easy to swing around and not get tired ) are balanced enough when it comes to speed and power, but the spear is a tad bit to fast for being such a big weapon… In large scale battles a spear will almost be too easy to use and just stab people to death… I’m not saying its way over powered, it just needs a small adjustment ( maybe 15 % less speed ), which leads me to my next point
Stamina ! - I know it has been talked about already including by me earlier in the first impression thread, but stamina needs multiple changes to it… Obviously the main change is, it needs to be harder on us because we never run out of stamina… Stamina would work much better if it had a slower recovery rate ( i’d go with maybe a good 30% slower ). Another thing about stamina is it’s class effect… Stamina should have a different rating for each class, obviously the heavier the class, the quicker it loses stamina ( recovery rate the same on all classes ), which leads me to the sprinting for free issue… Stamina should drain from sprinting, and at different speeds for each class ( heavier classes drain faster )… Then last but not least, the stamina drains on different weapon sizes… There needs to be a heavier drain on large weapons to the point where that 2 hand flailer everyone loves that lops everyones head off without tiring can be easily counter when he runs out of breath ( which he never does right now )… So the bigger the weapon the bigger the drain so he ends up having to parry ( poor him ).
Archery - I’ve mentioned it before but I thought i’d throw it in there again… The bows need a small increase in damage ( they are nothing compared to a crossbow or a javelin )
movement speed - needs to be a bit slower for smoother fights ( not counting sprinting which is a good speed right now, and would still be balanced if the stamina was added to it correctly )
Then one more small tweak I ask for is a server side option for class caps ( maybe 4 per class in full games ), so in big battles each role is filled instead of just a ton of knights running around ( not immersive at all )…
I play a spear vanguard the most and I really love the style of play it gives me. I’m not sure if the speed is overpowered, but it certainly is one of the biggest benefits of that weapon. It’s rather difficult to judge if the weapon is overpowered or not due to it’s unique nature. The spear vanguard is a great support role due to the fact that it’s easier to avoid hitting team mates with thrust attacks and with the extra reach you can stay behind you’re team mate and attack from there. The spear is also very efficient against novice players who spam swings. At times I have felt overpowered when an enemy knight couldn’t even get close to me while I stabed him to death. Looking back at those situations however I realize that the enemy didn’t even try doing anything remotely clever and was just spamming swing. I’ts entirely possible that the spear is a bit too powerfull, but It’s hard to tell at this point.
As for the stamina issue. I agree that stamina should be more focused, but at the same time I don’t think some of your suggestions would help game balance. Right now I feel that class balance overall seems pretty decent. I feel like your suggestions might give the man at arms class a bit of an advantage. As for stamina regeneration I think changing the mechanic would be more interesting than simply making it slower. My suggestions would be to slow down stamina reneration alot while moving and doing actions. Standing still for a few seconds doing nothing would alow stamina to start regenerating alot faster. Battlecries could also have a positive affect on stamina regen. These changes could also be class specific. This way we could also implement some of the changes you suggested and keep the class balance. For example the MAA class would get less of a benefit by standing still, but he would also use less stamina due to his light armor and weapons.
SlyGoat last edited by
I think you’re underestimating the broadsword. It only takes 2 hits to kill a man-at-arms if you land at least one overhead instead of relying solely on slash, and you can take out a vanguard or knight with 3 stabs to the face. It also has significantly longer reach than maces or axes, except for the dane axe which is still a bit shorter than a broadsword I believe (haven’t used it in a while since it’s been locked). Frankly I think broadsword is where man-at-arms weapon balance should be at.
I definitely agree with spears. The only problem I have with them is they feel like they lack a weakness. They’re just all-around strong - yes, they do happen to do very low damage compared to the other vanguard weapons, but they piercing damage rather than slashing, which means rather than killing men-at-arms in one hit and knights in 4, you kill any class in 2. So I concur that they should get a speed reduction; specifically on the recovery time and/or windup time, because it’s very hard to flinch a spear and very hard to get in after their attack ends but before a new one begins. The attack itself is already “slow” in that it lasts a very long time - but that only contributes to spamming spear creating an endless wall of pain, so don’t slow that down any more.
Spear stab-spam also ties in to stamina. The problem with stamina currently is it only penalizes you for comboing whereas the game deceptively says it penalizes you for missing. It should penalize you for missing - whether it’s your first attack or your 3rd, you should lose stamina if you miss. Because repeatedly stabbing doesn’t combo, a spear user or two-handed sword user can stab all day without ever losing stamina. I believe heavier weapons already drain more stamina than lighter ones, by the way, but I could be wrong because I can’t find where these values are listed yet. I do know that heavier weapons cost more stamina to feint than lighter ones - for example, the spear costs 15 stamina to feint, while daggers cost only 3.
I disagree on movement speed. If anything it should be faster and/or combat sprinting should be heavily stamina dependent, because as it stands there is never a reason not to sprint in combat. I think you’ll find combat is much smoother without sprinting.
I wouldn’t increase longbow damage yet. I think nobody has really mastered the longbow in Chivalry because it’s harder to pick up than it was in AoC, but potentially much more rewarding due to various mechanical changes. If anything I think the crossbow is too strong for its range and projectile speed.
I find serverside class caps to be pretty lame whenever I encounter them, personally. It implies stacking a single class is overpowered, in which case the problem should be fixed, not bandaged over by limiting the class. If everyone wants to run around as a knight, but knights are on equal footing with the other classes, I say let them. Of course eventually someone will create a quick server plugin to do this anyone and turn archers off on their server - there were lots of servers with a limit of 0 - 2 archers in AoC.
Also, after looking over the damage values of weapons, the hatchet appears to be significantly stronger than intended, so I wouldn’t be surprised if it were fixed soon. It’s currently doing more damage than the war axe - which is meant to be the strongest onehanded axe.
Your’e right… Some of these suggestions aren’t entirely about balance. It was just some changes I thought would make the game more intense and fun… But most of it was about balance…
" I disagree on movement speed. If anything it should be faster and/or combat sprinting should be heavily stamina dependent, because as it stands there is never a reason not to sprint in combat. I think you’ll find combat is much smoother without sprinting. "
Maybe your’e right, it very well could be because there is so much sprinting combat sometimes looks twitchy because there is no stamina penalty for sprinting. But I for sure wouldn’t speed up the base movement.
" I find serverside class caps to be pretty lame whenever I encounter them, personally. It implies stacking a single class is overpowered, in which case the problem should be fixed, not bandaged over by limiting the class. If everyone wants to run around as a knight, but knights are on equal footing with the other classes, I say let them. Of course eventually someone will create a quick server plugin to do this anyone and turn archers off on their server - there were lots of servers with a limit of 0 - 2 archers in AoC. "
Well it would just be a server side option, and as it stands… A whole team of knights/ vangaurds is almost impossible to counter.
SlyGoat last edited by
A whole team of knights/archers would counter it pretty well :)
That may be true, but for true balance I need to see that a whole team of any random class could hold up against another class… ( knights vs only archers, or vangaurd vs only man at arms ) but as it sits id imagine each match would be a back to back win for one team… The game isn’t totally off balance but i do sense it alittle when i play. But I think the main thing that bothers me isn’t seeing alot of knights running around, it’s seeing alot of expensive armor that noone put any work in to get because i’m a pretty big medieval geek and I know armor like that wasn’t easy to come by so it just bothers me alittle to not have to put in effort to get such shiny gear, haha… :)
I personally have no problem killing any class with just a Knight with a one handed broadsword. You can learn another player’s tricks very quickly with a game like Chivalry, because it is so up front and personal. A major part of the fun for me is trying to overcome a player who knows the weapon they are using well, learning their strengths and weaknesses. I’ve seen quite a few players complain about polearms being “nooby” and “hard to beat” in game, and in the hands of a player that can use it effectively it sure is hard to beat. Impossible? Not at all.
Balancing is a very sensitive topic, because people want to use the weapons they think are “cool”. Eventually you can run into the Battlefield 3 situation where boisterous and stubborn players refuse to learn and adapt to how the game plays, instead demanding DICE “buff this” or “nerf that”.
Some small changes to some values isn’t a bad thing, and I’ve only logged 5 hours in Chiv so far and I don’t know everything about every weapon. I’d just hate to see a change every time someone gets killed by a certain weapon (ala Battlefield 3).
I think the stamina should not drain faster for heavy armored classes, just recover slower for them. That way, they can sprint the same distance as everyone and you will not get the situation where lighter armored classes can kite heavy armored ones easily, because they out-stamina them from the start.
Sprinting should take stamina away and gradually slow you down, once it gets low, no hard “now you cannot sprint anymore”. Would feel more natural.
The spear is a weapon that is easy to use, has high range and high damage, even against heavy armored classes (where it shouldn’t be that good). It should be good versus light armor and bad vs heavy armor. The one handed axe feels it has too much damage on body hits, but feels fine when you do hits against the head (unless of course it is heavy armor, too)
Knights should in my opinion be more protected from damage in general, but be a class that relies on stamina management the most, so they cannot attack as furiously and wildly as they do now over the course of a whole battle, instead having to ration their strength and only engage when they feel like they can succeed. Otherwise they would become exhausted and be easy pickings for lighter classes swarming them.
I’m sorry to tell you that it’s a beta and things need to be fixed, it’s the reason why the player count of beta users are dropping, because people are getting tired of being slaughtered by the same 2 classes ( knight, vangaurd ) no matter how skilled they try’n get with the other classes… You said you can handle any class with a knight, that is one of the things I was getting at, go ahead and try and do that with another class… Not every class has a dominating effect like the knight and vangaurd, please tell me the last time you remember an archer being on the top of the score board… Every once in a while I see an archer maybe get top 4, and a really really good one maybe 3rd… But I’ve never seen an archer get 1st and thats after a good 11 hours of gameplay… Now to be honest, I am a medieval nerd and a knight and a " vangaurd " which basically is like another type of knight would typically dominate the battle field and that is why I suggested that server side cap option
This makes sense… I can see this way working as well…
I’m sorry to tell you that it’s a beta and things need to be fixed
Don’t take the discussion down to that level. First off, I was agreeing with you when I said I could dominate any class with a Knight and broadsword. Secondly, I merely expressed my concern that venturing into heavy balancing could lead down a shaky path; I said balancing wasn’t a bad thing. I said I hadn’t logged more than 4 or 5 hours and still needed to play more in order to fully develop an understanding of where the classes stand.
I have been ripped to shreds by an archer, because the player knew how to use his class. He kept far away from the battle and took very well aimed headshots. That is what an archer is supposed to do.
Ok, well things may not be as bad as I think they are when the weapon unlocks are available anyway… So I think i’ll just hold my tongue untill then for now :D