Why feinting for vangaurds should not be nerfed



  • so i hear feints are being fixed…

    lets take a close look at feinting, specifically for vangaurds.

    for vangaurds. lets be honest, feinting is the only defense mechanism a vangaurd possesses.

    • vangaurds have have no shield

    -vanguards block time/recovery is slooow

    • vangaurds have to close the gap when they are facing archers.

    • Vangaurds crouch duck is less than spectacular.

    • Vanguards are slightly taller than knights.

    and that children is why feinting, at least for vangaurds, should not be changed in any way.

    So, for the love of all things holy and everything vangaurd, please do not nerf feinting for vangaurd.

    (PS: i RARELY ever see any feinting being used whenever i play.)



  • you’re a tyrant



  • feint nerf is fine
    this is it right here
    why don’t you go play with it in the beta and see how different it is

    -The last .15 of an attack windup is unfeintable.
    -Feinting from a combo has a .1 longer recovery.
    -Attacks made after a feint cannot be feinted.



  • You can add this to your list of ways that vanguards can defend them selves:

    -generally have a longer range melee weapon
    -the most resilient class second to the knight
    -can win hit trades except against the knight in a few cases

    But it is his superior weapon reach, timing, and foot work (read pro-ness) that makes him viable.



  • @tyrant:

    for vangaurds. lets be honest, feinting is the only defense mechanism a vangaurd possesses.

    parrying, footwork, range/distance, ducking, leaning, attacking.

    @tyrant:

    vanguards block time/recovery is slooow

    I’m actually not really sure about this, seems about the same to me, depends on weapon probably too.

    @tyrant:

    vangaurds have to close the gap when they are facing archers.

    so does every other class, not everyone uses shields

    @tyrant:

    Vangaurds crouch duck is less than spectacular.

    it’s like… the same as everyone elses, lol. Works fine, you may be ducking too early so they see you and drag down… or you’re tryng to duck overhands… doesn’t work.

    Certain weapons need changes, the only one i’d disagree with is the spear because it can’t combo, feinting is like it’s only really useful tactic both on offense or defense. I also don’t like that you wouldn’t be able to combo feint, it’s kind of needed competetively as an option to speed up battles, we’ll see. Also, i read on the official news that when they release the next patch… they are not going to release any feint changes, just the bug/parry/glitch etc fixes for now. The NEXT patch will work on the mechanic changes like feint, even though its in the beta now… it’s not going to get pushed this update, it needs way more testing and input from community members (just the ones that know what they are talking about please, noobs stay out!) lol



  • Defensive feints should not be nerfed for anyone. Maybe combofeint to parry… not even sure about that. If they nerf or remove crouch to regenerate stam faster, that’s probably not necessary.



  • Vanguards are fine, just remove the craptastic charge attack and give them something USEFUL like the ability to warcry multiple times at once.



  • I personally feel that you’re wrong. Vanguards don’t need feint spamming in order to survive. Remember, they’re not removing feints completely, so you can still use them.



  • OP is somewhat right. But he needs to change what he thinks the job of a vanguard is.

    Vanguards like archers are a support class. They’re not meant to be able to win a fair 1v1 against a good knight or man at arms. They have decent damage and long reach so that in a hectic fray they get kills.

    Their main attribute - range - is the easiest weapon attribute to counter for any class. Getting inside a vanguards body and facehugging them to death is by no means difficult for a m@arms / knight. There are also secondary weapons - SECONDARY weapons that 2 shot them.

    Vanguard is the class in the game that is easiest to get good with, the simplest to pick up and play, but also has the lowest level of ability when playing near skill ceiling. Man at arms SHOULD be the hardest class to play with the most potential (next to archer, clearly the best when played as well as possible) but the feint meta game (its a guesswork mechanic) means that more HP is more of an advantage, because you have more room to guess wrong. I dont think anyone actually denies knight is the best class.

    In a 1v1 against a knight or man at arms, you’re fighting an uphill battle. If the people playing them are any good, you will die, because their classes are just better at that.

    The game without vanguards in it is perfectly balanced. The game with only vanguards in it would be perfectly balanced.

    So, i think even with a feint nerf vanguards will still be able to do what they’ve always done - get kills in the middle of large fights.



  • @JCash:

    OP is somewhat right. But he needs to change what he thinks the job of a vanguard is.

    Vanguards like archers are a support class. They’re not meant to be able to win a fair 1v1 against a good knight or man at arms. They have decent damage and long reach so that in a hectic fray they get kills.

    Their main attribute - range - is the easiest weapon attribute to counter for any class. Getting inside a vanguards body and facehugging them to death is by no means difficult for a m@arms / knight. There are also secondary weapons - SECONDARY weapons that 2 shot them.

    Vanguard is the class in the game that is easiest to get good with, the simplest to pick up and play, but also has the lowest level of ability when playing near skill ceiling. Man at arms SHOULD be the hardest class to play with the most potential (next to archer, clearly the best when played as well as possible) but the feint meta game (its a guesswork mechanic) means that more HP is more of an advantage, because you have more room to guess wrong. I dont think anyone actually denies knight is the best class.

    In a 1v1 against a knight or man at arms, you’re fighting an uphill battle. If the people playing them are any good, you will die, because their classes are just better at that.

    The game without vanguards in it is perfectly balanced. The game with only vanguards in it would be perfectly balanced.

    So, i think even with a feint nerf vanguards will still be able to do what they’ve always done - get kills in the middle of large fights.

    Iunno’ man, I don’t think vanguards are ‘weaker’ in the grand scheme of things so to speak, i’ve held my own against countless knights and maa’s. Look at any of the competitive van’s, often times they’re complete monsters when found in a good situation.



  • Iunno’ man, I don’t think vanguards are ‘weaker’ in the grand scheme of things so to speak, i’ve held my own against countless knights and maa’s. Look at any of the competitive van’s, often times they’re complete monsters when found in a good situation.

    Just because you’ve been able to kill loads of knights and MAAs doesn’t make them balanced against them. I could play archer and kill 5 knights in a row with a dagger, that doesn’t mean I wasn’t at a huge disadvantage against every single one.

    Knights outclass vanguards because in a 1v1 range really isn’t an issue. Once the distance is closed there really is no way to get them away from you.

    MAAs outclass vanguards because vanguards have very slow recovery time on a lot of their weapons. And then there’s the fact that it only takes one dodge for them to close the gap and completely nullify your range ‘advantage’.



  • Can’t believe how many of you underestimate range, lmao.



  • @Bloodhead:

    Knights outclass vanguards because in a 1v1 range really isn’t an issue. Once the distance is closed there really is no way to get them away from you.

    Range isn’t an issue in 1v1? Then pray tell, when is range an issue?

    Admittedly knight swords make them a better armoured VG, but the additional speed of VGs coupled with their longer range makes it easier for them to capitalize on mistakes.

    @Bloodhead:

    MAAs outclass vanguards because vanguards have very slow recovery time on a lot of their weapons. And then there’s the fact that it only takes one dodge for them to close the gap and completely nullify your range ‘advantage’.

    Heh, you’ve never tried the claymore, or billhook, have you? And do you think a good VG will let an MAA saunter into his face? A VG with good distance control is an extremely annoying foe to fight, simply because he makes you pay for every inch you advance on him.

    Feint nerfs should apply for all classes, period.



  • @Wangmaster:

    @Bloodhead:

    Knights outclass vanguards because in a 1v1 range really isn’t an issue. Once the distance is closed there really is no way to get them away from you.

    Range isn’t an issue in 1v1? Then pray tell, when is range an issue?

    Admittedly knight swords make them a better armoured VG, but the additional speed of VGs coupled with their longer range makes it easier for them to capitalize on mistakes.

    @Bloodhead:

    MAAs outclass vanguards because vanguards have very slow recovery time on a lot of their weapons. And then there’s the fact that it only takes one dodge for them to close the gap and completely nullify your range ‘advantage’.

    Heh, you’ve never tried the claymore, or billhook, have you? And do you think a good VG will let an MAA saunter into his face? A VG with good distance control is an extremely annoying foe to fight, simply because he makes you pay for every inch you advance on him.

    Feint nerfs should apply for all classes, period.

    No, range is not an issue in a 1v1. Even with the longest weapon, spear, the slowest class, knight, can go from outside its range to inside and hit them if they miss an attack. If the knight just decides to charge the spear user they only need to execute one parry before they’re inside his guard. Once inside the guard, if they’re using a 1h weapon, they can spam them down. Knights on average 2 hit vans depending on the weapon, 1 hit with a warhammer.

    We did this in my clan, a knight with a sow can stand just outside spear range, the spear user stabs at knight, misses, van backpedals, knight closes gap and stabs.

    Range is absolutely irrelevant in 1v1s, all that matters is amount of damage done, windup time, and a bit if it comes from weird angles like falch.

    Range is a good attribute in the middle of a big battle. If your team mate is fighting an enemy you can kill the enemy from outside of the fight. In a big fray, people are not able to focus intently on the 1v1 fight aspect, so you can use it to get kills on semi distracted people.

    Did you read my post? as I said, vanguard is a support class.

    You mentioned capitalizing on mistakes. Good players rarely make mistakes, and if we’re talking about almost ‘perfect play’ which is where a lot of people are, a knight is always going to beat a vanguard.

    When feints, the core combat mechanic, is a cointoss, who is most likely to win? The class with the most leeway to make mistakes, who can lose the most cointosses. Knight.

    –-

    Maybe he never tried a claymore but you’ve obviously never fought a good man at arms, lol. They will dodge around your swings, hit your openings, and leave you dead without getting hit once.

    To put it simply, in pub matches or in situations with distracted opponents, van is a great class. In a 1v1 environment they’re VERY underpowered. Man at arms and knight both 2 shot them reliably, where as the van has to 2 shot m@arms, 4 shot knights, has no shield and slow weapons. All they have is range and ability to feint, range is easily countered, and feint is being nerfd.

    I’ve stopped playing van and am practicing man at arms.



  • This post is extremly onesided. Ill go from buttom to top.

    You say MAA 2 shot Vanguards while they 2 shot MAA.

    The only MAA weapon that can 2 shot Vanguards without headshots is the Waraxe.
    The Vanguard can 1 shot MAA with the zweihander if hitting the head and can 2 shot him on the torso with all his primary weapons.

    The you say feint is a cointoss so knight will win because of more health. While this is not wrong you ignore the fact that the Vanguard gets to hit first getting a chance to remove quite a chunk of that health.

    Also you say good players rarely make mistakes, but in your example the spear vanguard misses, giving the knight the opportunity to sprint in.

    Finally at the beginning of your post you mention 1H knights 2 shotting vanguards, again only the warhammer, morning star and waraxe can do it without headshots.

    I agree that range is better in groupbattles and thats where vanguards shine, but the way you present things is propaganda for vanguards beeing shit in duels.



  • @Towe:

    This post is extremly onesided. Ill go from buttom to top.

    You say MAA 2 shot Vanguards while they 2 shot MAA.

    The only MAA weapon that can 2 shot Vanguards without headshots is the Waraxe.
    The Vanguard can 1 shot MAA with the zweihander if hitting the head and can 2 shot him on the torso with all his primary weapons.

    The you say feint is a cointoss so knight will win because of more health. While this is not wrong you ignore the fact that the Vanguard gets to hit first getting a chance to remove quite a chunk of that health.

    Also you say good players rarely make mistakes, but in your example the spear vanguard misses, giving the knight the opportunity to sprint in.

    Finally at the beginning of your post you mention 1H knights 2 shotting vanguards, again only the warhammer, morning star and waraxe can do it without headshots.

    I agree that range is better in groupbattles and thats where vanguards shine, but the way you present things is propaganda for vanguards beeing shit in duels.

    A man at arms has the speed needed to demolish a vanguard without getting hit once when you’re playing against ‘competitive’ people. Even with a spear they can get in and out of your range using dodging and movement and kill you. The only reason man at arms die to vanguards is due to feints, and the overhead lookdown bug. Thats how they get killed by zwei, it isnt the slow zwei swing, its the instant BOOMDEAD. To talk about balance when all these bugs and issues exist is kind of hard.

    the purpose behind man at arms is to be the best class but the hardest to get good with. That is what it is. (next to archer.)

    and, sorry but, do the man at arms you play with not land headshots almost every time? Must be nice, i’d like to introduce you to my clan mates.

    You’re right, most van primaries 2 shot man at arms. Man at arms can 2 shot vans, have dodge, better movement speed, present a smaller target, and if you miss a swing your combo/recover time is such that the man at arms can get in, hit you, then dodge out. Or get in, hit you, and facehug feint you to death.

    “Also you say good players rarely make mistakes, but in your example the spear vanguard misses, giving the knight the opportunity to sprint in.”

    You’re missing the point by miles. I was illustrating how even the range of the weapon with the most range is irrelevant even to the slowest class. You cant spam stab to keep them out of range or hold them back. They have to parry once, rush forward, and they’re inside your range. Or stand outside your range, wait for a miss, and rush it.

    Your point about hitting first doesnt really make sense.

    Vans also dont have a shield, which means they have poor feint defense.

    You keep saying ‘without headshots.’ Who are you fighting that doesnt almost always land headshots? It certainly isn’t me.

    You’re just looking at hit amounts, and ignoring, everything else about the game around it. Like, your perspective is just so wrong and warped i don’t know how to fix you. I hope this post cleared up some of your confusion and we can continue the dialogue if you want.

    ==== to be entirely clear and not get into an argument i don’t want, I disagree that vanguard feints should not be nerfd. I do agree with him that it will make them MORE underpowered than they are already. However, as I stated before they’re a support class. they’re not a duel class, they suck at duels. ====



  • @JCash:

    No, range is not an issue in a 1v1. Even with the longest weapon, spear, the slowest class, knight, can go from outside its range to inside and hit them if they miss an attack. If the knight just decides to charge the spear user they only need to execute one parry before they’re inside his guard. Once inside the guard, if they’re using a 1h weapon, they can spam them down. Knights on average 2 hit vans depending on the weapon, 1 hit with a warhammer.

    Also, you’re assuming the VG misses with the spear, and that when the knight comes in, its instant death for the VG. You might wanna learn it the hard way on the battlefield but, i’ll make it easy for you and say that a good VG player WILL dominate you if you think you can rush him every time he misses.

    @JCash:

    Did you read my post? as I said, vanguard is a support class.

    You saying so does not make it fact. The spear family is used for support, but every other weapon can hold their own against everything else.

    @JCash:

    You mentioned capitalizing on mistakes. Good players rarely make mistakes, and if we’re talking about almost ‘perfect play’ which is where a lot of people are, a knight is always going to beat a vanguard.

    “Always” is a bit extreme, don’t you think? And unless you’re refering to l334 MLG playstyles, I’m gonna have to break it to you that even good players make mistakes. Not often, but they do. And when they trip, it is your duty as a better player to take advantage of that. VG’s speed makes it easier.

    You mentioned fighting MAAs. Like i said before, you really think the “good” players you described will give any MAA the chance to get in face hug range? Of course, the “good” MAA will use every opportunity to do so, which makes them pretty evenly matched. And yes, I’ve fought MAAs who prance around, use every exploit in the book and generally make themselves a pain to fight. They’re difficult opponents, i’ll give you that, but definitely not the omnipotent gods you make them up to be.

    I’d duel you to make my point, but i’m afraid we won’t have much of a fight due to pings.



  • “good VG player WILL dominate you if you think you can rush him every time he misses.”

    No, they’ll just combo a blow or invite you in with feints, both methods are not super hard to read, and if you’re the proper distance away when they miss (slightly outside their range) even with knight you can rush forward and hit them.

    Now you’re in close with someone using a slow 2h van weapon. If they switch to their fast 1h weapon they’re dead. They’re currently being facehugged, and one of the hits needed to kill them has already landed.

    The fight is over unless the person fighting them makes a gross mistake, the van would have to hit a knight 3-4 times at this point, a man at arms it would have to hit twice, but the enemy is already closer, with faster weapons, and has advantages the van doesn’t. Possible shield, dodge ability, better speed, or the ability to tank like a pro.

    The fundamental issue is that range is an underpowered weapon attribute due to high movement speeds of all classes and relatively low backpedal speed so you can’t maintain range.

    I’m not saying these situations ALWAYS end with the van losing. I’m saying from a probability standpoint, and I’m not talking about scrub play here, i’m talking about players near the skill ceiling with their classes that almost always execute perfect play tactics, The van loses. In almost every given 1v1 situation, the vanguard will lose. If you take out the lookdown bug, the instant overheads weps like baradiche do, the underpowered nature becomes more apparent. With the feint nerf it will be harder to feint spam and trick a man at arms into dodging in, or a knight into rushing.

    “You saying so does not make it fact. The spear family is used for support, but every other weapon can hold their own against everything else.”

    Now we come to a situation where you saying so doesn’t make it fact.

    “Always” is a bit extreme, don’t you think?

    Nice, you managed to make one good point. ‘Almost always.’

    Who do you people play with that commonly make mistakes? As i said earlier, people are distracted and make errors in the chaos of group fighting that allow a van to shine.

    In 1v1 situations against good players who are not hurried, dont ahve to worry about someone sneaking up on them, who can just focus on fighting the fan, they’re incredibly underpowered. INCREDIBLY.
    ––

    to finish up, I have probably 5X the hours sunk into van than I do with any other class. I play everything with an extremely high level of skill. Me as vanguard with several weapons, very close to what the van ‘skill ceiling’ probably is. And the funny thing is I’m still better with knight. Because it is a vastly better class. Vanguard, in a duel, is underpowered. Its a support class like archer.

    I honestly believe if anyone is arguing with me they’re either playing against bad people, and referring to randomscrub balance rather than competitive balance, or don’t have enough hours logged.



  • You, good sir, and your 5x hours have barely even begun to scratch the surface of playing vanguard if you still maintain that range has no value. Why do you backpedal every time you get blocked? To create distance. Why is a VG able to swing first on an MAA? Range. Why are side-step counter-attacks more effective with longer weapons? Range. Why is the zwei considered powerful if not borderline OP? RANGE. (Okay, and a bit of acc overhead)

    I don’t know what kind of supercomputers you play with, but I can assure you many people do trip up when fighting competitively, and having range gives you to ability to take advantage of it in time.

    Since you seem to be the “leading expert” on competitive fighting and claim that those disputing your claim are ignorant and irrelevant, i’m sure the community would like to see some footage of your superior fighting capabilities. It would help if you had footage of using any other class to dominate a VG player.



  • next to archer, clearly the best when played as well as possible

    Archer…

    Best…

    Yeah okay buddy, the archer class is a point-and-click adventure minigame packaged with chivalry. They take the least amount of skill to get good at. And I’m saying this as someone who has the archer vet helmet.