Suggestion: Separate Feinting from Canceling Attacks



  • What do you guys think? This would make it so you had to press different buttons to feint an attack and cancel an attack to do nothing or cancel an attack to parry. I think this would allow us to more easily refine the balance of both mechanics. What do you all think?



  • Nope.

    I have no more room for keybinds, I’m stretched enough as it is. It’s just too complicated to have two keybinds for two things that are basically identical. Unless you plan on really, really changing attacking feints.



  • @Dr.Nick:

    What do you guys think? This would make it so you had to press different buttons to feint an attack and cancel an attack to do nothing or cancel an attack to parry. I think this would allow us to more easily refine the balance of both mechanics. What do you all think?

    Ugh.

    That is not an answer. You can not base a mechanic around “buttons to press”. Game controls, bindings makes it irrelevant.

    Regardless of whether it is ease to press another button you have to look at whether the action/mechanic is the right thing to do.

    I expected more from you Dr.Nick….

    Regardless, you cannot address feinting etc until everything has been addressed. Feinting can be one mother fucker of a bitch when your next attack is an alt attack because the animation is wrong.

    The correct approach is to fix the alt attack bug then lets revist feint attacks.

    For high level players, quite different from pub players, small changes effect the game considerably.

    Take the simple fix to sprint, it made a huge difference in kiting and overall duel behavior.

    Lets do these things in order, one change at a time.



  • What if feint attacks changed the direction of the swing instead of halting it. Thus it wouldn’t be a timing/reaction issue, but a spacing/aim issue. I say this because I am a fencer, and in fencing a feint attack is never performed by retracting the sword arm: the arm must always be extending, but the direction of the attack is altered by way of the wrist.



  • @gregcau:

    @Dr.Nick:

    What do you guys think? This would make it so you had to press different buttons to feint an attack and cancel an attack to do nothing or cancel an attack to parry. I think this would allow us to more easily refine the balance of both mechanics. What do you all think?

    Ugh.

    That is not an answer. You can not base a mechanic around “buttons to press”. Game controls, bindings makes it irrelevant.

    Regardless of whether it is ease to press another button you have to look at whether the action/mechanic is the right thing to do.

    I expected more from you Dr.Nick….

    Regardless, you cannot address feinting etc until everything has been addressed. Feinting can be one mother fucker of a bitch when your next attack is an alt attack because the animation is wrong.

    The correct approach is to fix the alt attack bug then lets revist feint attacks.

    For high level players, quite different from pub players, small changes effect the game considerably.

    Take the simple fix to sprint, it made a huge difference in kiting and overall duel behavior.

    Lets do these things in order, one change at a time.

    This isn’t an attempt to address feinting on its own, this is simply a suggestion to separate offensive feinting from defensive attack cancels to cut through part of the mess that is trying to balance feints. This change would not be adjusting feinting stats at all, just making it easier to change feints in their own role without trying to account for feint>parry or feint>cancel attack as well.



  • @Bloodhead:

    Nope.

    I have no more room for keybinds, I’m stretched enough as it is. It’s just too complicated to have two keybinds for two things that are basically identical. Unless you plan on really, really changing attacking feints.

    A fair point Bloodhead. I did consider the extra room this would require for keybindings but I can think of a good solution. “Q” will be used for offensive feints and “RMB” will be used for defensive canceling of attacks. This doesn’t take up anymore room than what already exists on the keymapping. I think the benefit of being able to balance both mechanics out more closely outweighs the small negative of complicating the controls by a small degree.



  • @Melomaniacal:

    What if feint attacks changed the direction of the swing instead of halting it. Thus it wouldn’t be a timing/reaction issue, but a spacing/aim issue. I say this because I am a fencer, and in fencing a feint attack is never performed by retracting the sword arm: the arm must always be extending, but the direction of the attack is altered by way of the wrist.

    How would that work with close quarter slashes? If you changed the direction of an extreme slash where the person is already turning +90 degrees to block the weapon tracer, if you change the direction during that attack, it would lead to all sorts of problems mechanic wise.

    Personally, I don’t think you should be able to feint into the same attack you just performed. It should be you are forced to use a different attack move, this would take longer and reflect how feinting in real life actually works instead of this machine gun arm twitching that you see in Chivalry. So if you feint your slash attack, then you are unable to perform another slash attack for a certain time frame so you would be forced to slash>feint>stab. Mind you, this would keep the plans for not being able to due a rapid succession of feints that is currently in the beta phase.



  • This is already going to be done in a sense with the next pass on feint changes. Essentially, you will always be able to cancel during a normal windup (to parry, kick, or just stop your attack), but will be restricted on your ability to then launch another attack - similar to the current recovery on feint which prevents extreme feint stuttering and combo feinting, but longer.



  • What if feint had a certain limit on the number you can do, then have a cool down to gain them back, a bit like Mass Effect skills?



  • There are people quick to dismiss this because they don’t understand it and just assume the control scheme change is a method of ‘nerfing’ feints, but Dr Nick actually has something here. When I was thinking of ways to fix the feint system myself, this is one of the things that kept cropping up as the solution which made the most sense without adding any clunky illogical behavior (things you expect to happen but don’t etc).

    Essentially, your feint key would be either Q or LMB by default (whatever you like though), with parrying on your RMB as usual by default. Hitting RMB during an attack’s windup will automatically transition into a parry instantly, whereas hitting whatever your feint key is mapped to will just cancel the attack (returning you to idle). This means no more having to double cancel attacks to parry, and on attacks after feints, you can simply disallow additional feints, but continue to allow the use of RMB to parry during the windup for those feint to parries everyone so graciously defends.

    Benefits:

    • The act of hitting RMB during an attack’s windup costs no stamina at all. One plus side to this is that to avoid hitting a teammate you won’t be forced to lose stamina whereas you would with a normal cancel. The other plus side is that this defensive option is ‘buffed’ in the sense you won’t lose stamina like you would with a normal cancel.
    • No more clunky feint to parries, they happen instantly upon hitting RMB during windup (or combo windup).
    • Logical behaviour: in the real world, you only fake a direction once because as soon as the opponent goes in to react, you hit the exposed side; this transitions into the game by only allowing you to feint non-feinted attacks, but keeps a very nice and less clunky feint to parry in the game because of RMB.

    So thumbs up Dr Nick, at least someone has a bit of sense around here.



  • Actually had some thoughts myself about the fact that they should have two different types of attack canceling. One would be as the same old one, the feint that would allow you to cancel attack with a 0.3 or 0.4 second cooldown before launching another attack, whilst the second one could be doubled value of the previous numbers, but serve as a attack cancel that will be used to avoid hitting teammates, should not cost any stamina.

    Having the number above 0.5 in its cooldown for Canceling attacks, will take away the ability to feint with this mechanism, atleast the user won’t be able to strike the victim during the second phase of parry which lasts 0.5 seconds if you account that most weapons take about 0.5 second if perfectly accelerated.

    sounds like a good idea to me.



  • @Martin:

    There are people quick to dismiss this because they don’t understand it and just assume the control scheme change is a method of ‘nerfing’ feints, but Dr Nick actually has something here. When I was thinking of ways to fix the feint system myself, this is one of the things that kept cropping up as the solution which made the most sense without adding any clunky illogical behavior (things you expect to happen but don’t etc).

    Essentially, your feint key would be either Q or LMB by default (whatever you like though), with parrying on your RMB as usual by default. Hitting RMB during an attack’s windup will automatically transition into a parry instantly, whereas hitting whatever your feint key is mapped to will just cancel the attack (returning you to idle). This means no more having to double cancel attacks to parry, and on attacks after feints, you can simply disallow additional feints, but continue to allow the use of RMB to parry during the windup for those feint to parries everyone so graciously defends.

    Benefits:

    • The act of hitting RMB during an attack’s windup costs no stamina at all. One plus side to this is that to avoid hitting a teammate you won’t be forced to lose stamina whereas you would with a normal cancel. The other plus side is that this defensive option is ‘buffed’ in the sense you won’t lose stamina like you would with a normal cancel.
    • No more clunky feint to parries, they happen instantly upon hitting RMB during windup.
    • Logical behaviour: in the real world, you only fake a direction once because as soon as the opponent goes in to react, you hit the exposed side; this transitions into the game by only allowing you to feint non-feinted attacks, but keeps a very nice and less clunky feint to parry in the game because of RMB.

    So thumbs up Dr Nick, at least someone has a bit of sense around here.

    No

    I’m going to go with no because I don’t see the benefit. Change for the sake of change. Clunky feint to parries are the user’s fault. I don’t agree with making feint to parry trivial. Also, I like losing stamina to cancel my attacks. It forces me to be more careful when attacking.



  • @bada:

    No

    I’m going to go with no because I don’t see the benefit. Change for the sake of change. Clunky feint to parries are the user’s fault. I don’t agree with making feint to parry trivial. Also, I like losing stamina to cancel my attacks. It forces me to be more careful when attacking.

    We just listed a bunch of benefits, it’s far from “change for change’s sake” -.- Nobody even talked about a stamina cost! It could still cost stamina to cancel attacks. ! Mr.Negative Nancy over here. I swear I could post a feasible solution for world hunger and Bada would still disagree with me.



  • So, in summary:

    1. The community wants more restrictions on feints to eliminate some of the guesswork and (hopefully?) raise the skill ceiling.
    2. The community does not want to restrict the act of canceling an attack mid-windup to parry or prevent team-damage.

    To achieve both of these, feinting and canceling would need to be separate concepts, but currently they are the same. Dr. Nick proposed we add an extra “cancel” command, which is obviously pretty controversial given how complex the controls are already.

    Martin proposed the (in my opinion, the more simple+elegant) solution of allowing you to parry at any time during a windup, independent of feints. So feint stays feint, and feint->parry just becomes parry during your windup. If you want to prevent team damage during your deadly windup, just use parry instead of feint.

    Wolfy proposed that we always allow “feint” during windup but for feints we’d like to restrict the cooldown would be too long for them to be effectively used as feints.

    Am I understanding this correctly? I think Martin’s and Wolfy’s solutions to decoupling feints + attack canceling seem pretty sane - I’m on board with either of those. I’m more concerned with
    1. How feints are restricted and whether or not they’ll actually have a positive effect on the skill ceiling.
    2. Whether or not new bugs will come along for the ride with these changes and how fast and effectively TB will be able to fix them.



  • @Dr.Nick:

    We just listed a bunch of benefits, it’s far from “change for change’s sake” -.- Nobody even talked about a stamina cost! It could still cost stamina to cancel attacks. ! Mr.Negative Nancy over here. I swear I could post a feasible solution for world hunger and Bada would still disagree with me.

    Martin’s post mentioned stamina. My response was in regards to his post. Not yours. Hence, I quoted Martin. Not you.

    Here I’ve included part of his post if you’re having issues locating it.

    @Martin:

    • The act of hitting RMB during an attack’s windup costs no stamina at all. One plus side to this is that to avoid hitting a teammate you won’t be forced to lose stamina whereas you would with a normal cancel. The other plus side is that this defensive option is ‘buffed’ in the sense you won’t lose stamina like you would with a normal cancel.


  • Bada, I think you’re slightly confused. Cancelling attacks and returning to idle would still cost stamina, feints would not change whatsoever in that aspect. The reason cancelling attacks costs 15 stamina right now is because you return to idle ready to perform another attack, an extremely small cost for times when you make mistakes, as you said yourself. If parrying occurred straight away in Windup, you eliminate the need to do the cancelling part first, hence the reason it would cost no Stamina during a windup; if you parry to not hit a teammate, that would cost zero stamina (and you would just regenerate it afterward anyway). If you parry during windup to deflect an incoming blow, your Stamina is lost through the actual parrying of a blow (when facing someone; if not facing anyone, you lose zero stamina, why would you need to lose stamina if you’re not fighting anyone anyway?). Parrying during windup puts you in a 0.9 second state of downtime where you cannot attack (0.4 blocking, 0.5 recovery), for an entire second. You would not be able to feint without using stamina, as it is now. The only reason we lose 15 stamina right now to feint to parry, is because the act of cancelling is tied to everything and there is absolutely no control over the additional stamina lost for a defensive option alongside the further cost of the parrying itself.

    I get the impression the only reason you’re blurting out a ‘No’ and padding it with non-arguments such as ‘Change for the sake of change’ is because you’re someone who doesn’t want to see any change to feints whatsoever, be it for better or worse and not looking the main side of the argument as to why Dr Nick suggested this in the first place and instead attacking a moot point I made, which is entirely customisable by the way, as it would not be tied to the act of cancelling anymore.



  • I’m gonna throw in my 2 pennies here and say (unsurprisingly) that I’m not too keen on some of the ideas in this thread.

    Firstly, I really don’t like the concept that feints can be separated into “offensive” and “defensive.” This is how a lot of people start using them, but feints aren’t only used to for drawing parries and blocking in windup.

    My most often used feint technique is simply cancelling my combo. Continuous comboing is a very effective technique (albeit very stamina draining, especially when you throw MaA dodges in). Often I need to cancel an attack to simply make ground on someone or switch to targets that I would otherwise miss. After this cancel, sometimes I never need to make an attack, while other times there is an opening. There is no real way for me to know beforehand if I will need the ability to attack, or block, or dodge, or anything. I can’t decide which type of cancel I need to do. For the same reasons an automatic feint->parry will be useless.

    This turns feint game-play into even more guesswork in some cases, especially when it will be basically impossible to tell if someone has “cancelled” or “feinted.”



  • I’d rather have feints replaced by a cheap windup cancel that lets you parry instantly but not attack for ~1 second. Still usable to bait a parry and follow up with a safe kick or reposition yourself, but it would become a niche strategy that won’t decide any fights on its own.

    Going by the poll, people seem to favor feint nerfs over flat removal, but it’s not obvious to me which category the above solution would fit in. Perhaps there’s a significant amount of players that would want offensive feints completely removed but don’t want to lose the cancelling utility?



  • @Torrenz:

    I’d rather have feints replaced by a cheap windup cancel that lets you parry instantly but not attack for ~1 second. Still usable to bait a parry and follow up with a safe kick or reposition yourself, but it would become a niche strategy that won’t decide any fights on its own.

    Going by the poll, people seem to favor feint nerfs over flat removal, but it’s not obvious to me which category the above solution would fit in. Perhaps there’s a significant amount of players that would want offensive feints completely removed but don’t want to lose the cancelling utility?

    That seems so perfect to me. Why is the offensive feint mechanic even necessary? It is not hard to perform, there is no risk and the reward is nearly always high. So why not just make it only to cancel your attacks? The game would be so much more fun… :(



  • @HammelGammel:

    I’d rather have feints replaced by a cheap windup cancel that lets you parry instantly but not attack for ~1 second. Still usable to bait a parry and follow up with a safe kick or reposition yourself, but it would become a niche strategy that won’t decide any fights on its own.

    Going by the poll, people seem to favor feint nerfs over flat removal, but it’s not obvious to me which category the above solution would fit in. Perhaps there’s a significant amount of players that would want offensive feints completely removed but don’t want to lose the cancelling utility?

    That is a pretty good idea.


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