Why I am taking my leave



  • I’ve had a good time with Chivalry. I sunk a good 215 hours into it, most of it very enjoyable. I made friends with some excellent players, had many exciting and tense matches (and equally as many blowouts, which are just as fun for me), and got immersed in the community culture and the aesthetics of the game. I don’t want anybody to believe I have at any time considered Chivalry a bad game, regardless of the glitches, regardless of some of the widespread gameplay silliness and controversies - I still enjoyed it, and I appreciate the skill it takes (a considerable amount, it must be noted) to play this well.

    That said, the better I’ve gotten and the more I have played against and alongside the various top flight players I’ve met and battled or befriended, I’ve come to the realization that at top levels, Chivalry is a 100% execution-based game. For many players, especially through casual and intermediate levels, this isn’t really true. Mindgames play a role in lower end play far more than they do in high-end play, since people can still be tricked into overcommitting to an action which leaves them punishable. No expert player, however, falls for this. Since they are used to the game and have developed the reflexes for it, they will always wait for an attack and defend on reaction, meaning many methods of offense that work well at lower levels become moot against a skilled player. There are, indeed, only three ways period to get damage against an expert player. The first is facehugging, which can open a good player up by moving unpredictably, throwing off their ability to track and thereby bypassing the guard - this is why sword of war stabs are so excellent, for example. The second is using a weapon which is so very fast on acceleration that it stresses the limit of any player’s reaction time, examples of which inlcude the bearded axe and polearms. The third way is to use a weapon which drags exceedingly well - possibly the only example by which mindgaming an opponent works to any degree against a skilled opponent, though it’s every bit as ambiguous as pre-patch feinting - and an example of this is the Zweihander.

    I want to emphasize at this point that I don’t intend to use this as any sort of argument for a change. I suspect it’s a core philosophy of TBS with this game to make it entirely possible to beat anything on reaction and enforce it being a 100% execution game, and if that is what they want to do then it is entirely their call. I will not tell them how to think.

    What I do want to do, however, is illuminate the realities of top-level play. I personally had a great deal more fun with Chivalry at an intermediate level, where it was still possible for me to trick players into making punishable mistakes, and the great personal appeal in most games for me is the action of out-thinking an opponent rather than beating them on the precision and speed of sheer manual skills. The ability for me to do that has gone away in Chivalry, and will indeed vanish almost entirely over time as the community matures and more players develop their skills. I hope Torn Banner will take this as food for thought and consider what their game will become over time, and I hope that if they were not aware of this I help them to understand those realities.

    I wish the studio and the community all the best, and I’ll be watching from the wings to see if anything changes which might restore the appeal for me, but for now I have pretty much retired from this game. I hope things keep going well for TBS, and I hope the players keep having fun.



  • I’v been thinking the same……



  • I agree that the more experienced I get the less I enjoy the game.

    However, I’m sticking with it for now, even if my play-time is decreasing week by week.

    I’m still clinging to the dream that patches / fixes will come faster than they have been. I know they’ve had legit reasons for the snail-pace updates so I’m not banging my drum about it, I just hope it improves now they have a dedicated office etc.



  • Do you guys participate in clan or team play, sounds like you are focused on solely 1 v 1 situations. The dynamics change a bit in when doing scrims or clan matches. Especially with 50% rule, can’t just have all knights and archers. Maybe you just need a different challenge from the game than just regular old pubs or duel servers. While the game does come down to specific mechanics, adding team movement and communication does add more elements into the mix. Also keeps you invested socially, competitively on a different level. Just food for thought. Even MMORPGs get boring when you approach the endgame solo.



  • Hey Dick,

    Thank you for your thoughtful and thorough explanation. I’m sorry you feel the need to go, but hopefully any upcoming changes and such will entice you to return at some point.

    I’m realistic in that in any game that I put so many hours again, after awhile it does get stale. I take a break from it, but then I always go back every so often. Just takes some new things and sometimes even new people to play with.

    In any case. I appreciate everything you had to say and it made a lot of sense.

    Take care,



  • Hmm, definitely an interesting explanation, one that i’m partially inclined to agree with.



  • I’d have to disagree. Top level play in every game is all about mindgames. Execution is basic.

    The mindgames in TO and LTS are different and are more heavily dependent on punishing positioning. The teamwork involved is being able to instantly decide on the fly what to do, based on where your teammates are currently and how to decide to execute a move that would be the lowest risk possible with the highest reward.

    Example:

    We were up against int one time on throneroom awhile back. We fell for something like this once:

    Double archer vs double archer set-up. We were mason.

    We saw a lone knight peeking through the door for vision; we decide to rush him because he’s alone. Bam, we got baited and their archers were ready to fire at us and took one of the melee out (normally they are focused on archers instead).

    Mixing strategies up like that is what keeps you ahead. But you can’t be thinking about any one type of strategy while you’re doing it, hence why execution is part of the basics.

    The same idea goes for fighting games. You see amazing technical players, but they usually aren’t the tournament winners. It’s the players who can take the minimum technical skill required and win with just that.



  • “T-T-F-N Ta Ta For Now!”

    -Tigger



  • If more better than average players started banding together and joining the world of scrimming, they would find that fun again. There is nothing like the adrenaline rush from going head to head with another skilled team. Strategy and teamwork is huge and a great majority of the community has yet to even experience one scrim. I would say those people should get a group of friends for a PUG and scrim another team or pug. Pubs are repetitive and hardly a place to find competition. If all I did was duel and pub, I would quit too. So, give organized play a chance. It might surprise you.

    A lot of popular formats for organized play:
    1v1 (duels)
    2v2 (i actually think these are really fun)
    5v5 Last Team Standing
    5v5 Team Objective
    8v8 Team Objective



  • Well since I have already talked about it at length with you on steam Dick I won’t say much here. It’s been a pleasure playing with you and I loved every moment :) I hope we can still hangout and get some games together and I also hope you’ll come back and play the game more as it evolves with patches.



  • @bada:

    If more better than average players started banding together and joining the world of scrimming, they would find that fun again. There is nothing like the adrenaline rush from going head to head with another skilled team. Strategy and teamwork is huge and a great majority of the community has yet to even experience one scrim. I would say those people should get a group of friends for a PUG and scrim another team or pug. Pubs are repetitive and hardly a place to find competition. If all I did was duel and pub, I would quit too. So, give organized play a chance. It might surprise you.

    A lot of popular formats for organized play:
    1v1 (duels)
    2v2 (i actually think these are really fun)
    5v5 Last Team Standing
    5v5 Team Objective
    8v8 Team Objective

    When are we gonna’ start doing 3v3’s?



  • our clan had a VERY fun scrim last night actually doing 8v8. we didn’t have our top team available but i think the boys pulled together very well, we communicated well and it does feel good to get a win when both teams are competitive. i agree doing the duels and pubbing over and over does get repetitive and a lot of the times if you aren’t playing in the pubs against the more skilled players, it can be a pretty easy cakewalk at times as well and not having the challenge there takes some of the fun away. It can be fun at time to pubstomp but playing against skilled players and challenging yourself is what keeps me playing. Plus all the hilarious shit that happens, the friends i have and have made, and continue to make from this game.

    sorry to see you go, know you are pretty active on the forums and in the community so come back and check it out once the game evolves a bit more. hopefully it does evolve and doesn’t go backwards.



  • I think Dick has hit the nail on the head.
    I could talk about the dirty tactics that 90% of the under skilled “high level players” use, but for as long as i can take away their advantage and expose their lack of skill i can get by with this game. Still the cheap shots in this game are lame and frustrating.

    1 in 10 times i can admire a highly skilled player, but i can not admire the other 9 out of 10 “high level players”, because their skill is not admirable, it is only their efficiency at exploiting the game and even then its often only one aspect they excel at exploiting with.



  • I told you so.



  • @Kimiko:

    Hey Dick

    I was like o_o when I first saw that, then I scrolled up to check if that was his name to be sure x)



  • Maybe you should try coming back once the dev team has released a few patchs, perhaps that would take away the boredom or frustration in the game. hopefully. . . .



  • There’s another indie game having a free weekend, maybe try that for a change of pace?
    Keep telling myself that I need to take a break from this game. ‘just one more match’.



  • I agree with the OP - for me increasing number of “skilled” (read: abusing game mechanics) players on server means less fun. If I’d like to play at level where everybody is starring at their feet I’d join a clan or something. I don’t pretend to be “pro” nor want to be. I am regular, average player and the way some game mechanics are being abused is simply turning me off (hits going through shields/parries, speeded up attack, feints, etc.) as it turns more into “who’ll be the best at abusing the game” and I want no part in it. I just want decent, reasonable medieval combat. The game was and sometimes is still fun (although much less than at start), but I do hope TB is really going to change things with time to make combat better and more intuitive.



  • @Holy.Death:

    I agree with the OP - for me increasing number of “skilled” (read: abusing game mechanics) players on server means less fun. If I’d like to play at level where everybody is starring at their feet I’d join a clan or something. I don’t pretend to be “pro” nor want to be. I am regular, average player and the way some game mechanics are being abused is simply turning me off (hits going through shields/parries, speeded up attack, feints, etc.) as it turns more into “who’ll be the best at abusing the game” and I want to part of it. I just want decent, reasonable medieval combat. The game was and sometimes is still fun (although much less than at start), but I do hope TB is really going to change things with time to make combat better and more intuitive.

    So true… :(



  • So when will the next patch come then? I know there’s the beta section, but as far as i’m concerned changes are either in the game or they never happened.


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