The fail of the flail.



  • The flail well fun to use who doesn’t want to whack someone with a metal ball and chain once in a while. Is the worst weapon of all the knight primaries.

    Problems
    1. It is marketed as being hard to block

    This is untrue on a fundamental level, the flail is no harder to block than any other weapon. If the ball was given a collision check on blocks so the ball could swing around and still deal damage albeit reduced. I’ve heard that the reason the flail is supposed to be unpredictable is that it’s release times and wind up are always the same so you can’t tell if it’s an overhead or swing but when swung the tracers are basically the same as any other over head and swing.

    2. The flail is slower than every other 1 handed knight primary weapon

    Here is a comparison including recovery time.
    Swords:

    SoW |Long Sword |Messer |War Hammer
    OH: 1.6s | OH: 1.60s | OH: 1.65s | OH: 1.7
    Swing: 1.55s |Swing: 1.60s |Swing: 1.55s |Swing: 1.7
    Stab: 1.50s | Stab: 1.45s | Stab: 1.45s | Stab: 1.5

    Flail Heavy Flail Fuckler
    Swing 1.75 Swing 1.9 Stab 1.325
    OH 1.75 Oh 1.9

    Now you may be looking at this thinking “Well… That’s not to much of a difference it must be balanced by having a higher range than some of the other weapons.”

    The flail only has a better range than the war hammer how ever this has its own issue flail wind up.
    The war hammer has a windup of 0.45 seconds for all attacks
    The flail has a wind up of 0.55 seconds
    This may not seem like an issue but it matters with human reaction time only being 0.15 seconds or something.
    War hammer release times are at 0.5 seconds for Swings and OH and 0.4 seconds for stab for a total time of 0.95 seconds OH/Swing and 0.80 for stab
    The flail release times are 0.55 seconds for each 1.10 seconds to launch and release a swing or over head.
    That’s a full .15 seconds slower than the closest weapon it can be compared too. making the safest option when fighting a flail user to just attack all the time. and it just gets worse for the heavy flail.

    3. The fail’s damage
    The flail 3 hits knights on an overhead on every area except legs and 3 hits in the head with swing.
    It’s closest comparison the war hammer 2 hits knights in the head with swing or overhead and 3 hits every where else with a swing or overhead. The closer damage wise would be the heavy flail But even then the heavy flail fails to the war hammer in damage. 2 hitting knights on overhead only and 3 hitting with every other hit location. 3 hitting with a swing every where but the legs, where it is a 4 hitter. All this and still only .1 seconds faster than the maul in wind up and release.

    4. The buckler.
    Now the buckler is the flail’s onlyredeeming factor believe it or not.
    Damage wise it three hits archers in the head and 4 hits every other class any where but the legs. This seems shitty at first until you look at how the buckler attacks. fast faster than the flail by far in wind up release and recovery in the time it takes to laucch 4 shitty buckler attacks you could have only launched 3 easily blockable slow flail attacks.

    Now the problem one with the buckler: Stamina Blocking 4 or 5 attacks and bam no more combos. which will be discussed in the next section.

    Number two is it’s small nothing more here.

    5. Combos
    The flails combo time of 0.65 seconds 0.7 seconds for heavy flail is exactly equal to it’s recovery time making comboing not any faster and not any more unpredictable.

    Solutions

    Solution one; Speed
    Make the flail faster in release and combo.
    It’s a small metal ball attached to a wooden handle with some chain. It is far far lighter than the average sword which is A: Longer B: All metal C: Solid metal(The chain has holes)

    Solution two; Make it hard to block.
    Give the flail an unique hit mechanic since it is a unique weapon Have the flails head be a hit box and a tracer if the attack is blocked if the flail still wraps around and hits them deal partial damage
    It was marketed as hard to block make it like that

    Solution three: New mechanic
    Add weapon disarms and give flails a bonus since the chain can wrap around the hilt
    but alas this would make things even worse since most secondaries are much faster than the flail.

    Solution four: Damage
    Make the flail Gen/(blunt/pierce) allowing it to deal better damage to all classes.
    REASON. Maa can easily dodge out and dodge back in and attack because flail might as well not combo vanguards have a serious range advantage over flails and in most cases the wind up is the same. having it ignore half defense would allow a single it to be devastating.

    Solution five: Uniqueness
    Increase the flails wind up to 0.75 and 0.85 for heavy flail but give it a crossbow like mechanic where you hold the flail spinning. I’ll explain this with an example

    LMB : moves the flail in to wind up and holds in spinning in the air above you(can’t block)
    if input = lMWB then release swing
    elif input = MWB release overhead
    elif input = MWF stab with buckler and lower flail

    This compensates for the slow speed by allowing you to hold attacks mid wind up but punishes you more for missing.

    Regardless of any changes except the generic damage one

    The damage should be increased enough to be comparable to the war hammer and the buckler either replaced or have a stamina drain simIlar to that of a kite shield when wielded by a knight. No sense punishing them 5 fold when a better option is literally always available since the war hammer is Tier 1.

    I’ll fix the grammer and edit this out better later.



  • Yeah, general consensus is that the flail is under powered. Definitely needs a speed/damage buff.

    Also in regards to your spinning idea, check out my thread below (pretty much the same thing) and even then it had already been suggested.



  • Hitting people that get close when the flail is spinning is kind of overpowered, for TO maps the defending players could just all be flail knights spinning the flail around the objectives.

    My thread explains why it’s underpowered for everyone to see especially the devs and mods who hopefully already know the reasons why it’s under power, while your thread just simply states that it’s underpowered.

    Our thread have the same purpose but are not the same. Thanks for the post supporting the spinning sling like mechanic though that is my favorite.



  • Flail sucks and the heavy/light are redundant; and the devs don’t care. This is the aoc devs we’re talking about, where it takes them a quarter century to change anything pertinent.



  • It does suck it takes much much MUCH more skill than the other weapons to use but being player sneaky or attacking when you know you will take it will get you some groan worthy kills.

    My personally favorite.

    This match I was blocking all this maa dodge stabs but he kept trying even though I kept countering with over heads and missing, finally I dinged him in the ass, he didn’t die but the next time he dashed in I did an alt overhead which has slightly more range than regular overheads and head shot him and then again. I took the stab like a bro and then flailed him like a champion, was very satisfying if rare.

    Make no mistake I love the flail, it’s super great getting in that first over head and footworking around the confused guy and seeing that metal ball coming down more and more until they’re no more. Maybe because it’s so hard to get those moments. It’s a shame that it’s so much weaker than the war hammer.



  • i like the idea of swinging it, i’ve seen videos of flail actually being swung in a circle either to the side or overhead, and using it the same way a sling would be used. And even sling archers have different windups they used depending on their style, but the same principle is there. I think as long as it took some skill to do and didnt instantly release, such as listening to the sounds and knowing it will only release when it’s going forward, so if you do it too early, it would have to come around first, etc.

    Another thing i would like to see in lieu of something like this would be… if you HAVE to use the buckler, give the buckler something unique that other shields cant do. I’d like to see the buckler be able to block, then you can counter attack with your flail… as if your shield was your parry, this would make the flail useful just this once change alone i think. And if you had a light shield like the buckler, you would be able to do this, it’s almost like using the back into overhand or whatever combo… except the bash would be your block.



  • After examining the tracers more in depth and since the recent shield fixes (OMG THANK YOU) I can now say that the flail is a viable albeit difficult to use weapon.

    I also believe there might have been a stealth buff with to the regular flail, after using it extensively 20ish hours of nearly pure flailing before patch and getting my ass romped by literally everything on the weapon screens. It feels different some how in a way I can’t put my finger on. Whether its my skill coming out from using a bad weapon and getting better foot work and misdirection(not much feinting less than 1 a fight on average) or just finally being able to block with a shield properly now I can not say but it works.

    I have pseudo won my first round of duels ever with a score of 10-4 using my trusty flail losing the win by a few seconds to someone else also 10-4 I did switch to a Norse sword a few times for those speedy maa’s that like to facehug but even then I’ve managed to beat them to a pulp a few times with the flail.
    #satisfying

    The heavy flail still feels slower than a watching a pot of water boil though.



  • @Sapreaver:

    Hitting people that get close when the flail is spinning is kind of overpowered, for TO maps the defending players could just all be flail knights spinning the flail around the objectives.

    My thread explains why it’s underpowered for everyone to see especially the devs and mods who hopefully already know the reasons why it’s under power, while your thread just simply states that it’s underpowered.

    Our thread have the same purpose but are not the same. Thanks for the post supporting the spinning sling like mechanic though that is my favorite.

    OK, I must point out that it’s hardly a secret that it’s underpowered. I appreciate what you’re trying to explain but it’s been in many, many threads before, this is nothing new.

    I’m not sure if you’re suggesting that all the solutions you suggest should be implemented or just some. I think if they were all implemented then the weapon would be OP, for example if the weapon was more powerful, faster, could disarm, was hard to block and could get around shields then I think everyone would use it.



  • Only one solution each one of those I believe would bring the flail up, doing every one would be overkill hahaha

    The point of this thread is to explain exactly why the flail is under powered as a weapon (slow low damage pretty predictable no parry counts no combo speed boost) and provide potential solutions to the developers on how to bring it up to par with the other weapons. 1 handed knight primaries to be specific.



  • I just had an image in my head of the scene from Gladiator where the burly, buff, gladiator is swinging his flail above his head and then the first prisoner runs into the ring and his head goes splat from the flail.



  • Killing peasants in Stones hill with the flai overhead is fun. Start a game with one bot and go to town :P and than murder the king with the flail…


Log in to reply
 

Looks like your connection to Torn Banner Forums was lost, please wait while we try to reconnect.