An elegant solution for certain exploits



  • Issues in question
    -facehugging
    -lookdown overheads
    -windup finishing behind ones shield/parry
    -mousedragging

    Pommel bash?

    To fix these issues, introduce a mechanic where, if the very first part of person X’s swing hits unguarded flesh, a small knockback is applied to person Y, and Person X’s combo ends. A small or reduced amount of damage might also be applied.

    (Optional: apply also to the very end of one’s swing as well, though this is more for cosmetic reasons ie. it looks quite silly when someone is kill by a sword that no longer has any momentum.)

    What follows is a brief look at how each issue listed might be negated by this small change. I will not go into why these are exploits. I take it if you’ve read this far, you agree that they do the game no favors.

    Facehugging
    A player who is facehugging relies first on the unpredictability of his swings, as well as the fact that the actual distance he has to swing is greatly reduced by proximity – this ties into the other listed exploits directly but for now we will put them to one side. If an attack is wound up whilst actively pushing into another player, the tracers closest to the handle of the weapon will in most cases start close to if not inside of that player. The suggested mechanic would foul a great deal of such swings, bring both players to neutral some distance from each other, and it would do so in a timely fashion.

    Lookdown overheads
    A lookdown overhead exploits a short windup time on some weapon overheads to make a hard-to-block and very damaging overhead strike. If the suggested mechanic were implemented, players would have to start their overhead strike overhead, radical yes I know.

    Windups starting inside other players
    On the third issue, some would deny that this even happens. This, however, is not the case. Windups will finish where they will, and the longer the weapon; the more packed the battlefield is, the more it is wont to happen. This mechanic would introduce a pommel bash-like option that would likely save the lives of more than one adjacent friendly.

    Mousedragging
    On mousedragging, I am actually a fan of this mechanic. I like the fact that one can vary the speed of ones swing, and change the scope of ones swing arc. What the proposed mechanic would do, however, is introduce a punishment for those that use it recklessly – those pushing the boundaries of how long one can delay that horizontal or how fast after a parry one can position their blade inside their foe. I anticipate a slight chilling effect on the extent to which players rely on mousedragging.

    Conclusion
    Obviously there would be exceptions, caveats, and provisors. But I see this as a quick to implement, easy to understand and, most of all, logical way to negate a variety of issues that have hindered mine and others playing experience. That first 0.05 seconds of a strike being as damaging as the last portion – when momentum has been achieved – is ridiculous and it behooves the developers to fix this, not just because of said ridiculousness, but also because it leads to exploits like the ones mentioned here.

    Please share your thoughts and comments. If you disagree that these issues are in need of addressing, please don’t hesitate to enlighten me on the thought processes that led to this conclusion. Please comment even if it is to correct my grammar, punctuation or spelling.

    Thanks!



  • Just as a first thought wouldn’t this ruin the ability to fight around multiple enemies, particularly with a longer weapon. It seems quite likely you wouldn’t be able to start a swing, or if you did then you couldn’t combo due to the swing ending near someone.

    This would also make stabs rather useless for every two hander if you can just run into them before the windup ends to stop the stab, even if stabs are excluded from this change you could still do this to slashes and even overheads of some weapons though it wouldn’t be as easy to pull off.

    I think the effect on dragging is greater than you realize, to the point where it will make dragging impossible all but the slowest of weapons depending on the duration of the swing that is made to bash.



  • @Methos43:

    Issues in question
    Pommel bash?

    your suggestion here takes the reason to use combos away… combos are meant to be able to hit multiple attacks in sequence, and you can go between players… if when it hits someone you get knocked back and it discontinues the combo, that defeats the whole purpose of having combos.

    @Methos43:

    Facehugging
    Lookdown overheads
    Windups starting inside other players

    Going to group these all together because they are all based on the swings windup beginning inside of a player. Lookdown overheads may eventually have a stun if you hit the ground. Why this is good: skilled players will not hit the ground with a lookdown overhand, they will pull up just before hitting the ground to allow them to keep comboing, this still speeds up the attack, but prevents the attack from being stopped from hitting the ground. Requires more skill. Hitting the ground however SHOULD have a punishment which currently is that it discontinues the ability to combo. However, lookdown overs with the instant hit on you, goes back to the facehug issue where certain weapon windups start within your character, and which is why they are deemed “exploitable”. I don’t think getting in your opponents face is a bad thing, but the issue is that weapons in certain cases are EXTREMELY difficult to block, the only one i particularly have an issue with in facehug is lookdown overs. The slashes and such CAN be parried with accurate parries, and i’m fine with that.

    My solution for lookdown overs, and attacks beginning inside of the body, or “hitting with the handle” is to simply have sort of an adaptive parry box. This would require testing… but what if:

    At certain ranges away form players, the normal parry is useable and you have to look toward the tip and direction of the players attack. But if they get real close within facehug range, the parry box either grows or moves inward toward the handle. This is also more realistic because lets face it, if one were to get real close and swordfight, it’s going to be harder to do an overhead swing in close while i’m holding my sword sideways and up to parry it anyhow… i think the parry box should either move in toward the handle, or grow in size in this situation. I think it would be particularly hard to implement and test, but that may be a somewhat relevant solution to those types of things.

    @Methos43:

    Mousedragging

    mouse dragging is not an exploit, and in no way undefendable, glad you like the mechanic. Punishing someone for being good with them is not a good idea for a “solution” to anything except for lowering the skill ceiling to cater to newer players that haven’t learned to time their parries better. Try no-feint duels more often and you will get practice dealing with drags and spotting the characters movements to know when they might be coming.



  • Mousedragging actually IS an exploit. You put your mousespeed all the way up, to bypass the penalty in mousespeed when swinging. Dragging your mouse a little bit is all right I guess, but there are players out there, which hit you nearly instantly. And it looks just awkward, seeing some vanguard with a heavy zweihänder, doing a 360 while swinging. You can even time it, so it is unpredictable. Right now I think it’s a little broken to be honest. I would like to see the speed-penalty being unified for all the mousespeeds.



  • yes, but that’s what i JUST went over… why don’t people read. When those happen, that is one of the lookdown overhands i just talked about. That is A lookdown overhand. That is a lookdown overhand. That is a lookdown overhand. Okay just so everyone may have read this time. There are certain weapons that the lookdown overhead hits damn near instantly with, and some are regardless of facehug range and i don’t like those. But the drags with slashes, and look UP overhand drags are perfectly fine. There is not a slash i’ve come across that i can not block if i time or aim my parry correctly. Even pokes can be dragged and i forgot about those. Even speeding up the slashes are not exploitative. you are probably getting hit by the lookdown overhands… lookdown overhands… lookdown overhands.

    If i am still not clear to you particulars, i don’t mean to sound harsh but you haven’t played the game long enough to fully understand things if you’re still in disagreement or don’t get it. I have like 900 hours in the game… i REALLY like to think i know what i’m talking about at this point… please believe and trust in my experience.

    ok i think you get the point now



  • @clayton-bigsby:

    your suggestion here takes the reason to use combos away… combos are meant to be able to hit multiple attacks in sequence, and you can go between players… if when it hits someone you get knocked back and it discontinues the combo, that defeats the whole purpose of having combos.

    Thanks for the reply! you suggest here that I was implying the removal or negation of the combo mechanic. Not so. The suggested mechanic would simply end the combo sequence if an attack was started to close to a player, but still do a small amount of damage, knockback or stun. Combos would still be perfectly viable, as long as players did not try to take advantage of the OPs listed issues, as they currently do.

    @clayton-bigsby:

    “Your second paragraph”

    ! Going to group these all together because they are all based on the swings windup beginning inside of a player. Lookdown overheads may eventually have a stun if you hit the ground. Why this is good: skilled players will not hit the ground with a lookdown overhand, they will pull up just before hitting the ground to allow them to keep comboing, this still speeds up the attack, but prevents the attack from being stopped from hitting the ground. Requires more skill. Hitting the ground however SHOULD have a punishment which currently is that it discontinues the ability to combo. However, lookdown overs with the instant hit on you, goes back to the facehug issue where certain weapon windups start within your character, and which is why they are deemed “exploitable”. I don’t think getting in your opponents face is a bad thing, but the issue is that weapons in certain cases are EXTREMELY difficult to block, the only one i particularly have an issue with in facehug is lookdown overs. The slashes and such CAN be parried with accurate parries, and i’m fine with that.

    Here you cover the issues of overheads and facehugging. I am a longtime fan of the idea that one should be able to parry the entire length of an attack, from the tip of an attacker’s weapon right down to the hands and arm (with the most definite exception of the flails, for that is what they exist to negate). This could be an effective solution to the facehugging problem, except, as you point out, those attacks that start inside a defender.

    The proposed mechanic would take care of these attacks and, I hypothesise, attacks close to being inside the defender, because these “borderline” attacks would fall within the 0.05 second “foul time” phase. This, I imagine, would have a discouraging effect on “kissing range” tactics in general.

    @clayton-bigsby:

    “Your third paragraph”

    ! My solution for lookdown overs, and attacks beginning inside of the body, or “hitting with the handle” is to simply have sort of an adaptive parry box. This would require testing… but what if:
    !
    ! At certain ranges away form players, the normal parry is useable and you have to look toward the tip and direction of the players attack. But if they get real close within facehug range, the parry box either grows or moves inward toward the handle. This is also more realistic because lets face it, if one were to get real close and swordfight, it’s going to be harder to do an overhead swing in close while i’m holding my sword sideways and up to parry it anyhow… i think the parry box should either move in toward the handle, or grow in size in this situation. I think it would be particularly hard to implement and test, but that may be a somewhat relevant solution to those types of things.

    As i mentioned being able to parry/block the entire attack and not just the tip would preclude the fix you propose here. I think the issue at heart is that there is no penalty for what would, in a real fight, be an untenably close fighting position. That is what the proposed mechanic would introduce; the kind of inability to execute a proper swing that would most likely occur in this situation. Likewise, if one were to manage to get ones swing prepared, but the space in which to execute said swing was simply not available, the small amount of knockback proposed would be the greatest force transfer that might be achieved.

    @clayton-bigsby:

    “your fourth and final paragraph”

    ! mouse dragging is not an exploit, and in no way undefendable, glad you like the mechanic. Punishing someone for being good with them is not a good idea for a “solution” to anything except for lowering the skill ceiling to cater to newer players that haven’t learned to time their parries better. Try no-feint duels more often and you will get practice dealing with drags and spotting the characters movements to know when they might be coming.

    You’ll notice that I specifically said that
    @Methos43:

    What the proposed mechanic would do, however, is introduce a punishment for those that use it recklessly

    As you might imagine, a “good” player would not be reckless. A “good” player would be surgical and accurate, thus avoiding the penalty.

    @clayton-bigsby:

    ! why don’t people read.



  • Take out the fun.

    Yes that’s how you improve the game.



  • i get what you’re saying about the attacks being close and throwing off the combo… at first it sounded like any time i hit someone with my attack, my combo would stop and i’d have to start again. I think that the suggestion you have there would be really buggy and glitchy, and if that were the case and range was involved, someone not in the fight could stand next to you so close that the mechanic would then affect the people fighting even though he’s not in the fight, I could see bugs of that nature happening.

    I also don’t think parrying the entire weapon length is a viable solution, this would make all parries very simple, dragging would be pretty much useless at that point, because you would be able to force parries far too soon by blocking the handle of a weapon, which sometimes already happens. It would only really be effective if the parries adapted, or only the certain weapons that the look down overhands are exploitative with (hatchet, pole-axe, grand mace, zwei, etc, etc…) just had their parry boxes changed to allow blocking the handle on overheads, or the animation could also use a tweak to actually match up with what you are supposed to parry at. I don’t think ALL the parry boxes should be adjusted to include the entire length because then pretty much all weapons would become useless, the skill ceiling would drop to the floor, and the game wouldn’t have as much depth. If the entire length of a sword for example had a parryable area, the tracer would be entirely blue and red throughout, and being able to land any sort of hit on anyone would be next to impossible, without feint spamming like crazy. that would make people that don’t like feinting even more hateful of it.

    Now back to mousedragging… mousedragging is 100% fine with me with the exception of the above mentioned look down overheads particularly with the broken weapons/animations. Not all weapons have a really bad lookdown overhand with instant hit as some do. There should be no punishment for a well executed drag, and the reason counter attacks are able to get closer to you is because they are using better footwork during their parry counters, or timing their counters better. The better timing you have on these counters, the faster your attack is going to come off… this stops counter parry battles from going back and forth back and forth and makes it less of a stamina game waiting for whoever runs out of stamina first. Now the stamina drain can and does happen, no issue with that… .but if you can time you counters faster, you should be the victorious one IMO and i don’t have an issue with dragging at all. It takes skill to pull of a well executed drag against skilled opponents because they are ready for what may come and know how to parry them effectively… making it a punishment to do so would take away from depth and take away from skilled players



  • @clayton-bigsby:

    I think that the suggestion you have there would be really buggy and glitchy, and if that were the case and range was involved, someone not in the fight could stand next to you so close that the mechanic would then affect the people fighting even though he’s not in the fight, I could see bugs of that nature happening.

    In the situation where this hypothetical third person would be affected by the proposed mechanic would already, in the current setup, result in them taking full weapon damage, ostensibly involving them regardless. The situation you describe is not a bug, but a feature.

    @clayton-bigsby:

    dragging would be pretty much useless at that point, because you would be able to force parries far too soon by blocking the handle of a weapon, which sometimes already happens.

    Not if the attacker was at a reasonable distance from his target, which is, in truth, what we are trying to encourage.

    @clayton-bigsby:

    “snip”

    ! It would only really be effective if the parries adapted, or only the certain weapons that the look down overhands are exploitative with (hatchet, pole-axe, grand mace, zwei, etc, etc…) just had their parry boxes changed to allow blocking the handle on overheads, or the animation could also use a tweak to actually match up with what you are supposed to parry at. I don’t think ALL the parry boxes should be adjusted to include the entire length because then pretty much all weapons would become useless, the skill ceiling would drop to the floor, and the game wouldn’t have as much depth. If the entire length of a sword for example had a parryable area, the tracer would be entirely blue and red throughout, and being able to land any sort of hit on anyone would be next to impossible, without feint spamming like crazy. that would make people that don’t like feinting even more hateful of it.

    See above. If the attacker is at the distance that is reasonable for the weapon he is wielding, the proposed mechanic doesn’t come into play. If he or the other party reduces distance between them, the proposed mechanic is triggered and both parties are moved apart via knockback, and combos are ended.

    @clayton-bigsby:

    Now back to mousedragging… mousedragging is 100% fine with me with the exception of the above mentioned look down overheads particularly with the broken weapons/animations. Not all weapons have a really bad lookdown overhand with instant hit as some do. There should be no punishment for a well executed drag

    For the third time I’m not proposing the punishment of “well executed” mousedragging. Merely that the very start and (possibly) the very end of a swing do knockback, instead of full weapon damage.

    @clayton-bigsby:

    “snip, because of illegibility and possible irrelevance”

    ! and the reason counter attacks are able to get closer to you is because they are using better footwork during their parry counters, or timing their counters better. The better timing you have on these counters, the faster your attack is going to come off… this stops counter parry battles from going back and forth back and forth and makes it less of a stamina game waiting for whoever runs out of stamina first. Now the stamina drain can and does happen,
    if you can time you counters faster, you should be the victorious one IMO and i don’t have an issue with dragging at all. It takes skill to pull of a well executed drag against skilled opponents because they are ready for what may come and know how to parry them effectively… making it a punishment to do so would take away from depth and take away from skilled players

    This would add an extra element of skill to mousedragging, not, as you seem to suggest, punish skillful mousedragging. what I’m proposing would raise the “skill floor” of swordplay by making mistimed or reckless slashing slightly less effective, whilst decisively dealing with such issues as overhead instant kills and facehugging.



  • damn, i thought we had a good conversation going. You really are just trying to make the game easier for yourself. I pointed out relevant issues… you’re making things easier for yourself because you can’t defend against it… that is now clear to me. Thread is dead to me now… good day.



  • @clayton-bigsby:

    damn, i thought we had a good conversation going.Thread is dead to me now… good day.

    So did I. Unfortunate you had to bow out early. I plainly stated that

    @Methos43:

    what I’m proposing would raise the “skill floor”

    How that equates to me

    @clayton-bigsby:

    trying to make the game easier for yourself

    is unclear. I will assume that the proposal remains unchallenged.



  • Unchallenged when you fail to explain anything further or make any point beyond referring to your original post, not to mention ignoring other posts.



  • @HammelGammel:

    Mousedragging actually IS an exploit. You put your mousespeed all the way up, to bypass the penalty in mousespeed when swinging. Dragging your mouse a little bit is all right I guess, but there are players out there, which hit you nearly instantly. And it looks just awkward, seeing some vanguard with a heavy zweihänder, doing a 360 while swinging. You can even time it, so it is unpredictable. Right now I think it’s a little broken to be honest. I would like to see the speed-penalty being unified for all the mousespeeds.

    You’re so incredibly wrong that I don’t even know where to begin. The game was designed for the mouse dragging system. Saying it’s an exploit is just… Wow, what is this I don’t even.

    Did you get killed by a quick backwards overhead or something?



  • he may actually be referring to desyncs… when this happens, it looks like the other character is still in windup sometimes then boom you get smacked. This happens with slashes. Other desyncs you don’t even see the other player move, or he’s way out of range and then you get smacked. Not sure what causes them really either because i’ve had it happen on my server at times when everyone has pings in the 50’s or lower.


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