The Truth about non feinters



  • Gettin’ sick of seeing the same few threads by the same few people complaining about feints. But when you look at it really, look at the weapons they use. Almost all of them use the vangaurd or the knight 2handed swords. What’s special about these swords? They’re really long, really fast, have very fast combos, drag like crazy, and can barely be flinched. Their one real weakness really is feints because feints can trick them and stop them from endlessly combo spamming.

    Without feints, how are slow weapons like poleaxes or non combo weapons like spears even supposed to stop a sword that’s faster and almost as long.

    Come on guys, a game without feints is so one dimensional and boring (this is 3 years of age of chivalry experience talking) that all it ends up is people running in circles like chickens with their heads cut off hoping to be able to land the cheap shot first so they could viciously mash mouse buttons.

    *edit, about the swords, why do you think you see so many vangaurds with them in ffa.



  • I hardly ever play a sword vanguard or knight and choose not to feint in combat and I have never had a problem going up against vanguards and knights who use fast comboing to their advantage. It is very easy to parry and hitting them stops combos almost all the time now. As long as parrying and blocking works when I aim it correctly, i’m not fussed.

    Feinting isn’t much of an issue for me either, because I usually attack them mid feint, it gets easier after you read a particular persons play-style.
    My only issue with feints happens when I have a short reaching weapon and they feint with a long reaching weapon at the last millisecond making me HAVE (You’d be an idiot not to) to parry which lands a hit on me anyway, but that doesn’t happen very often either and I can ALWAYS choose a different weapon to counter with.

    Everyone just needs to get off their high horse about being killed in this game. It happens, It WILL happen again, people just need to stop making excuses when they die.
    “Someone figured out a way to counter my feints! My KDR suffered, I better complain instead of finding another counter.”
    “Someone killed me with a dagger when I was comboing with my greatsword! Fix this injustice.”



  • I’m just annoyed with people arguing to have the game changed “their way, as they don’t like this feature”, instead of leaving it up to the developers to put their own vision into their own game. You don’t see any of the older clans from the competitive side, or Europeans complaining about feints.



  • you don’t know what you’re talking about. opinions vary and are far between. people that make sense with their posts have very good points about feinting. And not everyone wants rid of them. Tactics that non feinters use take skill. Feints do not. thats the main difference. Feints stop people from endlessly combo spamming? how is that? if i was combo spamming and you feint, you’re going to keep getting hit… how does that stop combo spam? Feints have a place, and that’s in team based matches where you need to kill quickly… but not in duels. Nothing that a non feinter does cannot be defended against by knowing how to move and how to parry. Feints however cannot be defended against with skill and is purely a guess. This is the biggest argument here. Of course more people that play vanguard or knight are going to have an issue… with MAA… you have a dodge, it’s a get out of jail free card if you are feinted and you still have a chance to get away… knights and vanguards cannot dodge. Fast comboing as you say… that is available whether you feint or not… so if you mixed in feints… just becomes that much more aggressive.

    Personally, i don’t have an issue with feints being in the game, but you can’t tell me that they take any skill, and the feints that are done at end of windup are in any way judgeable or defendable by skill. If you do… then you don’t know what you’re talking about. People who rely on feint really don’t posess much skill in the gmae, their footwork is worse, their parries are worse… they are not as skilled players overall. Even not feinters don’t have an issue with feinting a lot of them, dealing with them i mean… but they choose not to use it themselves because it makes THEM a bad player overall… and they feel by them using it against someone, it’s a cheap way to get a free hit on them, and if you do it enough in a fight… it can be over in about 3 seconds. The problem people have is that if this is supposed to be a skill based game, with a high skill ceiling… then why are you capable of basically getting free hits on people. Don’t call mousedrags, combo’s etc ‘free hits’ they are not even in the same league. Drags, combos, anything non feinted thrown out there can be perfectly defended against. Feints cannot without knowing player style, and a roll of the dice (guessing).

    I agree that in objective matches, feints are needed, you need to kill quickly, get people out of there and push an objective. But in duels… in 1v1 matchups where you should test your skills against another… getting free hits on people by using something that they cannot physically react to with skill… thats not a measurement of how good you are in my opinion. And that’s the feeling that most non-feinters have. I fight both feint and non feint… and some just only non feint. There are a ton of different trains of thought here so either read more posts… or dont comment on something you don’t understand whatsoever.

    Also, with your poleaxe and spear comment… i can fight without feints with both of these weapons and win, even against a feinter. Do i win ALL of my duels? OF course not… but dueling is dynamic and each fight should be different in some way so no one player is oging to win every duel he goes into… but there are ways to use skill with each weapon and overcome opponents without feinting. There are adjustments to feint that will be tested more… so any of the non-feint people iwll be more than happy to try the system out… but why would you as a player want to rely on something that takes no skill in something that should be a skill based game?



  • Eloquently put Mr Bigsby.

    I don’t need to feint with the poleaxe or spear either. And while i find it hard, i don’t need to use feint with the polehammer either. By sticking with it i have found ways to be more clever and successful with the weapon.
    Such as looking down and facing away from my opponent so as to hide my weapon whilst i am performing a thrust. It makes it harder for the enemy to detect what i’m doing if they can’t see me telescoping my attack for soooo long as per what happens with the polehammer.

    There are ways.



  • ! @clayton-bigsby:
    !
    !
    ! > you don’t know what you’re talking about. opinions vary and are far between. people that make sense with their posts have very good points about feinting. And not everyone wants rid of them. Tactics that non feinters use take skill. Feints do not. thats the main difference. Feints stop people from endlessly combo spamming? how is that? if i was combo spamming and you feint, you’re going to keep getting hit… how does that stop combo spam? Feints have a place, and that’s in team based matches where you need to kill quickly… but not in duels. Nothing that a non feinter does cannot be defended against by knowing how to move and how to parry. Feints however cannot be defended against with skill and is purely a guess. This is the biggest argument here. Of course more people that play vanguard or knight are going to have an issue… with MAA… you have a dodge, it’s a get out of jail free card if you are feinted and you still have a chance to get away… knights and vanguards cannot dodge. Fast comboing as you say… that is available whether you feint or not… so if you mixed in feints… just becomes that much more aggressive.
    ! >
    ! > Personally, i don’t have an issue with feints being in the game, but you can’t tell me that they take any skill, and the feints that are done at end of windup are in any way judgeable or defendable by skill. If you do… then you don’t know what you’re talking about. People who rely on feint really don’t posess much skill in the gmae, their footwork is worse, their parries are worse… they are not as skilled players overall. Even not feinters don’t have an issue with feinting a lot of them, dealing with them i mean… but they choose not to use it themselves because it makes THEM a bad player overall… and they feel by them using it against someone, it’s a cheap way to get a free hit on them, and if you do it enough in a fight… it can be over in about 3 seconds. The problem people have is that if this is supposed to be a skill based game, with a high skill ceiling… then why are you capable of basically getting free hits on people. Don’t call mousedrags, combo’s etc ‘free hits’ they are not even in the same league. Drags, combos, anything non feinted thrown out there can be perfectly defended against. Feints cannot without knowing player style, and a roll of the dice (guessing).
    ! >
    ! > I agree that in objective matches, feints are needed, you need to kill quickly, get people out of there and push an objective. But in duels… in 1v1 matchups where you should test your skills against another… getting free hits on people by using something that they cannot physically react to with skill… thats not a measurement of how good you are in my opinion. And that’s the feeling that most non-feinters have. I fight both feint and non feint… and some just only non feint. There are a ton of different trains of thought here so either read more posts… or dont comment on something you don’t understand whatsoever.
    ! >
    ! > Also, with your poleaxe and spear comment… i can fight without feints with both of these weapons and win, even against a feinter. Do i win ALL of my duels? OF course not… but dueling is dynamic and each fight should be different in some way so no one player is oging to win every duel he goes into… but there are ways to use skill with each weapon and overcome opponents without feinting. There are adjustments to feint that will be tested more… so any of the non-feint people iwll be more than happy to try the system out… but why would you as a player want to rely on something that takes no skill in something that should be a skill based game?
    !
    !

    That was indeed well spoken. No need to speak further.



  • The way this game is balanced, it needs feint. I don’t have a serious problem with feints, I’d rather have no feint IF IT WAS BALANCED, but as of now I don’t have a serious problem with it. What I do have a problem with though are feint spammers and people who time their feints perfectly so it’s mathematically impossible to block them (both of which are due to be fixed in the next patch).



  • My experience has been that the weapons ARE balanced without feinting. Sure, it helps open a hole but I can do the same with intentional misses into combos, positioning and body movement.

    Feinting is a great game mechanic when everyone has low pings to the server. I’ll repeat that. It’s just great for LAN or low-ping play. Feints can certainly be anticipated and blocked against, even by large weapons.
    But when you have 150+ ping players using feints, it is pretty much a crapshoot.

    Regardless, all I’ve ever said is that server operators should have the option to disable feinting. That was shouted down because everyone is apparently afraid that they might actually do it.



  • I have to disagree with the notion that feinting requires no skill. It’s not a simple cure-all for a player with low skill, and if not done properly, it leaves you wide open to people with more experience. The most important aspect of feinting is timing.

    Timing is a skill, not luck. If you look at most successful athletes, they have incredible anticipation and timing (especially boxers/mixed martial artists whose sports closely resemble the combat in Chivalry – If you don’t believe me, go watch some Anderson Silva highlights). These are not luck. If you know how to time feints – both offensively and defensively – that’s skill. I think by saying that feinting requires no skill is just a confession that you lack ability when playing defense. Being able to read, time, and block your opponent’s attacks is just as important as having good footwork on the offensive.

    If you know what to watch for, feints are seen from a mile away. And generally, players with no feinting skill throw them from way too far away, making their intentions clear as day.

    I do agree that people rely on them too heavily, but skilled players add them to their arsenal instead of totally abandoning them entirely. They round out a skillful player’s attacking options.



  • please don’t tell me i lack skill on defense with your two posts on this forum. Please just don’t even go there… you know nothing. If you read my post, i specifically say unless they are easy feints (far away in range, quick feints… etc…) it’s late feints that you cannot read and if you think you can… come duel in interitus duels and we will all show you and we’ll see how good your “defense” is against them. Don’t talk to me like you know even slightly about what you’re talking about. And please read entire posts and comprehend them before responding if you are going to call someone out.

    And this whole “skilled players” thing… i’m starting to thing people think they are a part of “skilled players” when they are two weeks into the game and have like 100 or so hours… you’re not. Lets get that straight right now.

    The last line is the only thing i can agree with, skilled players add to their arsenal with them as do i on occasions… but I on one hand attempt to feint as little as possible or not at all because if you duel often enough, you’ll realize how little skill it takes to kill an opponent, especially if you take into account very powerful weapons that 2 hit knights and can one-hit KO any other class.



  • Slower weapons have massive dragging potential. It’s not a playstyle I prefer, I drag but I prefer faster acceleration, but that’s personal preference.

    Both are very, very powerful fighting techniques, doesn’t matter what weapon you use. Anything can be effective without feints, provided you are skilled too. While the spear might be slightly off for a 1v1, it still works decently because you can drag the stab a bit, and it’s fast.

    It still perplexes me beyond reason that some players prefer a mechanic that infuses luck into combat. It doesn’t necessarily turn the entire fight into a cointoss, but there is more luck than without feints, without any doubt. This lowers the skill ceiling substantially.

    I’ve posted an example of this point before I believe, but it’s worth saying again.

    Take the best feinting duelist. Put him up against an average-ish feinting duelist. Have them duel 10 times. In those 10 duels, the average player has a fair chance of winning at least 1 time.

    Now, do the same with the best non-feinter, and an average non-feinter. The difference here is that even after 100 duels my money is on the best non-feinter never to lose once.

    Much, much higher skill ceiling.

    @BillDoor:

    My experience has been that the weapons ARE balanced without feinting. Sure, it helps open a hole but I can do the same with intentional misses into combos, positioning and body movement.

    Feinting is a great game mechanic when everyone has low pings to the server. I’ll repeat that. It’s just great for LAN or low-ping play. Feints can certainly be anticipated and blocked against, even by large weapons.
    But when you have 150+ ping players using feints, it is pretty much a crapshoot.

    Regardless, all I’ve ever said is that server operators should have the option to disable feinting. That was shouted down because everyone is apparently afraid that they might actually do it.

    Could people stop propagating this? It’s entirely false. Even with 30 ms ping or below, a properly executed feint as it stands now is 100% impossible to react to. You can anticipate them sometimes, especially if you fight the same player often, but that has nothing to do with ping nor does it balance anything out because for the most part it’s still guess-work.



  • Seriously Clayton, no reason to get defensive. I never said I’m all that skilled – I’m not but I really like Chivalry – and number of posts on a forum in no way indicate ability.

    I wish you could respond to my post with some actual thoughts instead of just bashing me.

    Yes, it doesn’t take a ton of skill to kill an opponent, but that’s what I think makes the game fun. Skill wins out most of the time, but everyone is dangerous. You can’t take any duel or any opponent lightly. You need focus and skill to succeed every time.

    I think it’s kind of a cop-out to say that feinting takes ‘no skill’ or it’s ‘cheap’. Even in my limited playtime, I can still beat most feinters once I figure out that is their strategy. The reason for this is that is the only tactic they use… one feint, wait for the block, then attack.

    People in general – in any game – go for the strategy that helps them get the easiest win. It sucks for people who want to play the game in a purer sense, one that requires skill. It’s like playing any Call of Duty game… Skill rarely prevails cause you don’t need it to win.

    I totally agree with The Radiant, I think that people who solely rely on feints all seem about the same, whether they are good at it or totally new to the tactic.



  • It’s as simple as this.

    Chivalry has a timing based defensive mechanic and no other way of deflecting and blocking attacks.

    This means that a feinter can put you into a locked state where you can no longer input any commands. That’s why feinting is dumb as shit and makes no sense.

    There are fighting games with Chivalry’s parry mechanic on top of a held block.

    Street Fighter Alpha 3 Karin has a time based parry that could allow you to get frame advantage if your opponent doesn’t air recover. It also serves as an offensive-defensive option when your guard meter is low.(Something that Chivalry needs) The difference is your opponent has to commit to an attack and cannot cancel once its thrown out. So when you’re anticipating something like that the burden is on you.

    Whereas in Chivalry even if I predict a feint how am I going to predict the 2nd or even third? (Because they don’t have to commit to any real action) In a lot of situations pressing your parry button is a death knell.

    Street Fighter 3rd Strike has a brilliant parry system…why can’t Chivalry learn from games that were designed by people with brains?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bbc9NIiOzBs



  • Feint need a nerf, especially when the animation just doesnt make sense because of it!
    Drag too, need a nerf, especially the combo + stab drag with vanguard…perhaps it’s not consider skill to use feint, but someone that block a feinter is skilled I guess so



  • That’s a good point Musashi.

    I wish kicks were a little bit quicker, then you could throw a kick out when you saw a feint and knock the other person out of the animation.

    What other mechanic could you put in to make feints less effective or require more ability to use?



  • @clayton-bigsby:

    … with MAA… you have a dodge, it’s a get out of jail free card if you are feinted and you still have a chance to get away…

    You can’t dodge during a parry. So, not QUITE a jail free card, but you get my point. (But you can dodge during a block; wtb consistency.

    @clayton-bigsby:

    Don’t call mousedrags, combo’s etc ‘free hits’ they are not even in the same league. Drags, combos, anything non feinted thrown out there can be perfectly defended against. Feints cannot without knowing player style, and a roll of the dice (guessing).

    Just wanted to point something out. Lookdown overheads suffer from the same deal as feints. Sure, it takes more skill to use, but is very easy to master. You can be looking down, and the opponent will think its an instant hit incoming, then all of a sudden look all the way up for a drag.

    Also, guesswork is not a dice roll; they are mindgames. The more consistent player will always win in the end. A dice roll is a random occurance by which players have no control over. The players here have full control over what happens.

    Just wanted to point out some flaws in the argument.



  • @NoVaLombardia:

    @clayton-bigsby:

    … with MAA… you have a dodge, it’s a get out of jail free card if you are feinted and you still have a chance to get away…

    You can’t dodge during a parry. So, not QUITE a jail free card, but you get my point. (But you can dodge during a block; wtb consistency.

    ME -no… you don’t dodge during a parry. You dodge first… and if they feinted during you dodge, you can THEN parry after your dodge is complete for the real attack… or you can even dodge again or to the side for another feint or attack… and then parry after that. When MAA see an attack incoming that is in range and can potentially hit htem, they dodge out of the way first, not parry first. If they parry first this is because they are out of stamina… and this is why managing stamina as MAA is the most crucial in playing the MAA class. You know this because you main MAA right? i even know tihs. Your initial dodge is your get out of jail free card becasue you can then still parry AFTER dodging, or even double dodge.

    @clayton-bigsby:

    Don’t call mousedrags, combo’s etc ‘free hits’ they are not even in the same league. Drags, combos, anything non feinted thrown out there can be perfectly defended against. Feints cannot without knowing player style, and a roll of the dice (guessing).

    Just wanted to point something out. Lookdown overheads suffer from the same deal as feints. Sure, it takes more skill to use, but is very easy to master. You can be looking down, and the opponent will think its an instant hit incoming, then all of a sudden look all the way up for a drag.

    ME- lookdown overhands do not take much skill, you look down and attack… There is trickery that can be involved, but then again, if you wait for the strike, you can parry it with good patience and timing… if you fall for it… there was no danger to them just looking down, good players wait for a windup first… not just a torso movement. And also, an “instant” lookdown overhand shouldn’t exist in the first place in the game so i have a problem with that even happening in the first place… noone should have to expect an INSTANT overhand incoming. Take the bearded axes lookdown overhand for example… that should not be do-able in the first place, so taking “instant hits” into account should not even be part of the argument, because i have a problem with “instant hits” existing in the first place.

    Also, guesswork is not a dice roll; they are mindgames. The more consistent player will always win in the end. A dice roll is a random occurance by which players have no control over. The players here have full control over what happens.

    Just wanted to point out some flaws in the argument.

    ME -you didn’t point out any flaws in my argument, you just misinterpreted them. Guesswork IS a dice roll. how is a GUESS… not a diceroll? its the same thing in two different wordings. To the defender, you don’t know what they are going to do… so you have no control over them, only yourself and what YOU do… so your choice is based on a guess on what the other player will do when it comes to fenits… you cannot react to late feints man… just plain and simple. You just either have to know player styles and expect heavy feinters to combo feint after hitting you… possibly feint the first atack to get the first attack which then goes into a combo feint, or guess whether after they hit if they will just continue to combo rather than feint which typically you would (which makes combo feinting effective in the first place)… how is all of this reaction or skill based? its GUESSWORK…

    this is how late feints work… and i’ll explain the skill portion again and the non skill portion.

    In a chivlary duel for example… you dont know what the other guy is going to do or what’s in his head. Is he going to take initiative for the first attack? Or is he going to run in and then back off keeping range waiting for you to swing… you don’t know. This portion of the duel you can watch and react to… you can see his intention after a certain point and one will eventually start the duel.

    If they are to come in for an attack, a skilled player knows the windup times and waits for a release. If they feint out of range… or too early with a quick feint… you don’t have to react to that yet. Lets use a baseball swing to make it somewhat visual.

    Take a chivalry swing as a baseball swing… when someone begins to windup their swing… they can either continue or feint it… Same with a baseball player, he can check swing (feint) or “break the wrist” attack. A skilled player will wait for the breaking of the wrist, or what would be the release as far as what the animation shows you, and sometimes the character grunts and you can go off of that to be defensive. However… the way the feints are set up… the attacker can “break the wrist” and he should then HAVE TO FOLLOW through with the attack. However… the way the game works… you can break the wrist… to where a skillled players only correct reaction is to parry it, however after breaking the wrist to where the attack should release… the attacker can then feint his attack at this point. This is a late feint, his animation already broke the wrist, and he should be following through with an attack. this is not so currently in the game. THERE IS NO WAY TO REACT TO A LATE FEINT. You can use range sure and foot work to back off. An aggressive attacker will use the late feint to close the distance and be within range for an attack… these are effective feints. but they are effective because the defender simply cannot react to them in any way.

    You say you can look down or look up to fake people out… thats perfectly fine… a skilled player will not fall for a torso movement, he waits for an attack windup before even considering a parry first.

    In this way… late feints are IMPOSSIBLE to judge, other than taking a wild guess at whether the player is going to do it or not. It’s… a … guess…

    there are typical combinations that you can latch onto, but any good feinter will change up his combos… to where it STAYS guesswork and never is too predictable. He feints once, he wont feint the next one, or he can keep feinting… or then he may do multiple feints instead of one… the list goes on… point is you cannot react to tihs with skill. So while its simple to run up, start an attack wait till end of windup to force a parry, then attack again takes no skill… it’s just guesswork on the defenders part because he CANNNOT skillfully defend against it.

    Skill in this game would be to know every weapon, it’s timings. This game is all about timing and disrupting timing. But late feints throw timing out the window. Heres my reasoning here: say you know a weapons windup is 2 seconds… a skilled player could then know that during a windup, the player COULD feint… so he waits for the 2 second windup, from there, he KNOWS he should parry and a feint is not coming because the attacker would not be able to feint any longer because his 2 second window is up… then PARRY. The defender could then ; say he went on the attack first… he could go ok attack parry… 1 - 2 … ok parry now. Or if he sees the feint during the 1-2 count… keep waiting at that point for the 2 second window he has to feint… and then parry the real attack. Currently, the attacker can feint after the windup period should be over, and even sometimes after the release has already happend… which is why after someone misses a swing being out of range and sees an attacker doing his own attack… the attacker can still feint to parry. This is bogus, and takes the opportunity to use any form of skill or knowledge of the game out of the window.

    Why do you think that players that just started playing the game, can still take on level 40+'s with feints? because the late feints are simply a guess that the defender has to take.

    That’s my reasoning… arguments? Please still tell me that feints are skill based… please keep telling me that.

    Now the adjustments that are experimental… they go in the right direction to where you WOULD be able to defend aginst the feints with skill by reducing the window at least to the correct windup-release time so that you can know the timings of the weapons attack… currently in the game, you cannot do this.

    My thoughts are that anything in the game should be defendable in some way. Mousedrags, torso movement… all of that stuff CAN be defended against if skilled… late feints… CANNOT

    I SHOULD ALSO NOTE (AGAIN) : These scenarios are for 1v1 dueling only. As i’ve stated before… i have no issue with feints in team based matchups say for example TO. Team objective and especially in competetive need these feints because… you need to take out players quickly, and can’t be going back and forth for long periods of time because you will get attacked by other players. You need to take peoeple out quickly and efficiently and feints are the best way at doing so. You need to get them out of the picture and move on so your team can push the objective. These arguments are mainly for 1v1 duels, where in duels the object is to show more skill than the opponent and beat them one versus one. But, if you have these mechanics that are not implemented correctly available, where it becomes a guessing game more than a matchup of skill… i don’t agree with it.



  • You screwed up some of the quoting, so rather than figuring that out im just gonna type stuff out.

    I understand you dodge first before parrying. Dodge is not a get out of jail free card though; just involves a different playstyle. MAA’s force people to feint far less, and instead the guess work is guessing which way they are going to dodge (forward, backwards, or sideways). Yet you don’t consider this a dice roll? (Either way it isn’t.)

    ––
    Addressing the lookdown : feint argument.

    If you see an enemy winding up a lookdown overhead on you, your first instinct is, “It’s a lookdown overhead, quick, parry!” The thing is though, just like waiting until the last moment to feint, the aggressor can wait til the last moment to look up, and is basically the same situation as dealing with a feint. The difference is that theres slightly more skill involved with the overhead thing (not by much).


    Addressing the guess : luck argument.

    A guess can be educated. A guess can made based on previous information. Mindgames are based on ‘guessing’ and also tricking the opponent to think what you WANT them to think. Rock, paper, scissor is the simplest form of this game, however, here’s the kicker; there is no luck.

    How can I say there is no luck in a game of Rock, Paper, Scissor you ask? The players control every aspect of the game. There is no outside force that forces an event to happen based on an omnipotent, unbiased, outcome. Your actions are not controlled by a random occurance, and is, instead controlled by you and your opponent only.

    Statistics, if concluded that rock, paper, scissor is in fact a pure dice roll, would show close 1/3 win rates for all players at all skill levels. I guarantee you this will NEVER be the case, unless you only tally equally skilled players. A coin flip over a long period of time, will in fact show outcomes close to 50%.

    Fighting games are built around this concept, but only offer many more options. There are plenty of games out there that are MUCH faster paced than chivalry. Nobody reacts, they guess. But what happens? The most consistent players still win… ALWAYS. That’s also why people play BEST OF X. Sure, a random fluke can happen… RARELY… I myself have gotten beat by a rank 0 once at rank 40+ but it pretty much never happens. Rank 15’s and under aren’t even under the issue of feint to win mechanics. They’re more of, hey, they just keep attacking and I fell for it.

    You can learn a lot from an opponent by his footwork alone. I play alot of new duel mode servers alot, where there are plenty of lowbie players. If you’re good (which I know you are), you will go 10-0 in 95% of the maps. There are enough ways to deal with feints than just waiting to block their attack.



  • @Peglegkickboxer:

    Gettin’ sick of seeing the same few threads by the same few people complaining about feints. But when you look at it really, look at the weapons they use. Almost all of them use the vangaurd or the knight 2handed swords. What’s special about these swords? They’re really long, really fast, have very fast combos, drag like crazy, and can barely be flinched. Their one real weakness really is feints because feints can trick them and stop them from endlessly combo spamming.

    I would just like to note that my favorite weapons are the Maul and Messer so there goes your argument about fast weapons ;)



  • @NoVaLombardia:

    ––
    Addressing the lookdown : feint argument.

    If you see an enemy winding up a lookdown overhead on you, your first instinct is, “It’s a lookdown overhead, quick, parry!” The thing is though, just like waiting until the last moment to feint, the aggressor can wait til the last moment to look up, and is basically the same situation as dealing with a feint. The difference is that theres slightly more skill involved with the overhead thing (not by much).

    The difference is a properly executed feint is 100% impossible to react to by any human being on Earth, whereas even a perfectly performed fake lookdown to overhead drag is possible, albeit quite difficult, to react to… for most weapons. Some with very quick lookdowns by long-release times like the bardiche are basically like feints, but in general it’s possible to react to them. And as you say, they take a bit more skill to perform, especially to do it really really well (Which is required to even approach the level of a feint).

    ––
    Addressing the guess : luck argument.

    A guess can be educated. A guess can made based on previous information. Mindgames are based on ‘guessing’ and also tricking the opponent to think what you WANT them to think. Rock, paper, scissor is the simplest form of this game, however, here’s the kicker; there is no luck.

    How can I say there is no luck in a game of Rock, Paper, Scissor you ask? The players control every aspect of the game. There is no outside force that forces an event to happen based on an omnipotent, unbiased, outcome. Your actions are not controlled by a random occurance, and is, instead controlled by you and your opponent only.

    You control your actions, and using your senses and brain power you can analyze light from your monitor to determine patterns in the specific shape your enemy represents. Over the course of many fights a good player will have determined certain… consistencies of his opponent that he can capitalize on. Now, a good player will do his best to randomize when he uses these feints. Can someone truly be random? Who knows, but we can be damn close; close enough that it doesn’t work the way you describe.

    There is luck because you are not in possession of all the variables. You cannot know exactly what your opponent will do, only make an educated guess as you say. Even an educated guess is still just that, a guess. A decision made without all variables is a guess, and a guess depends partially on luck.

    Statistics, if concluded that rock, paper, scissor is in fact a pure dice roll, would show close 1/3 win rates for all players at all skill levels. I guarantee you this will NEVER be the case, unless you only tally equally skilled players. A coin flip over a long period of time, will in fact show outcomes close to 50%.

    In feint duels, this is due to mastery of footwork as well as feint to parry. Due to these elements, feint duels do require a degree of skill, so a great feint player will still consistently beat an average player far more than he loses. The difference, as I stated before, is how high the skill ceiling is in this setup. It’s quite a bit lower than without feints, because even though some skill is involved in trying to predict your opponent, using good footwork and proper feint to parries; it doesn’t compare to the more direct combat without feints.

    Fighting games are built around this concept, but only offer many more options. There are plenty of games out there that are MUCH faster paced than chivalry. Nobody reacts, they guess. But what happens? The most consistent players still win… ALWAYS. That’s also why people play BEST OF X. Sure, a random fluke can happen… RARELY… I myself have gotten beat by a rank 0 once at rank 40+ but it pretty much never happens. Rank 15’s and under aren’t even under the issue of feint to win mechanics. They’re more of, hey, they just keep attacking and I fell for it.

    I rarely play fighting games so it’s harder to comment on them, I don’t know detailed nature of their fighting system to say why this would be the case. But I question how high the skill ceiling could be with guesswork involved. Without a doubt it’s lower than when mechanical, direct skill is necessary. When both offensive and defensive skill is required to win the game takes on a whole new level.

    You can learn a lot from an opponent by his footwork alone. I play alot of new duel mode servers alot, where there are plenty of lowbie players. If you’re good (which I know you are), you will go 10-0 in 95% of the maps. There are enough ways to deal with feints than just waiting to block their attack.

    The only reason this is the case is average feinters don’t hold them for very long and rarely have good parry counters to instil tension. Fighting them, feints or not, is very rarely ever intense. They’re too slow. Yet, all an average player has to do to stand a chance against the best feinter is to start to hold his feints until later in the windup. That’s it. Keep attacking, feint properly here and there, and he’ll have a shot against even the best player in the game. That’s ridiculous.


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