The Truth about non feinters



  • Back when I was playing months ago this kind of circle-sprinting and feint spamming was relatively rare. Now every server I go on seems to have half the player base sprinting around like morons LMB-feint-spamming all the freaking time. It not only looks completely fucking silly, but it ruins the actual dynamics of the fights too.

    That’s because when you played there were a bunch of retards spamming m1 and not knowing how to abuse the game’s broken mechanics to their advantage.

    Now most of those people have left and the people STILL PLAYING chivalry are the ones who have learned how to do these things.

    You and other people are months behind the realizations that others made back in November of fucking 2012.



  • @MUSASHI:

    That’s because when you played there were a bunch of retards spamming m1 and not knowing how to abuse the game’s broken mechanics to their advantage.

    Now most of those people have left and the people STILL PLAYING chivalry are the ones who have learned how to do these things.

    You and other people are months behind the realizations that others made back in November of fucking 2012.

    Regardless of whether I’m “months behind” with the realisations (the passive aggression there seems pretty unnecessary), the simple fact is the way the game is played atm with all this whirling about like the Vanguards are high on crack and the constant twitchy chain feinting is just a pretty bullshit state of affairs. Would you agree?

    I feel Chivalry is (still) a very good game at it’s core, but steps simply need to be taken to shift the focus back onto the actual combat (parries, footwork, range, dodging, weapon strengths and weaknesses) and away from this kind of progressive bastardisation of the mechanics that turn it into a cheap face-hugging feint-fest.

    Of course, I imagine there are “pr0s” out there who prefer this kind of “I humped your leg first, hence you die” feint-heavy gameplay.

    But personally I always felt the combat was much more enjoyable when I felt like I was actually fighting my opponent, not just watching a nobleman from the Middle Ages having some kind of seizure before killing me.

    This old vid, which got me into the game, is what I class “real combat”. Note the lack of ridiculous twitching and crack-addled sprint-spinning in every possible direction. 7:30 is particularly demonstrative:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=llnRxtazljg



  • @hermanJnr.:

    things

    Yeah I really hope they try and bring back the whole Hollywood feel they said they were going for. If they could do that without impacting the skill ceiling of the game that would be amazing, though I don’t see it being possible because what puts the ceiling up where it is right now is being able to pull off all the “exploits” in combat.

    One of the stupidest looking things in the game right now imo is how much your upper body moves with the mouse. It can make you look like you’re bending over completely backwards if you look up and you curl up into a ball with your head buried if you crouch and look down.

    The video really does show that you can have skillful combat that still looks entertaining so it could work if the devs tried to make tactics like sprinting around in circles less effective than tactics that actually look like swordfighting.



  • Hermanjnr you make a great point, and I totally agree with you.

    I guess some people enjoy using the cheapest tactics to win. Personally, I’d much rather have a clean match, just like the one you pointed out in that video. That looks like fun to me. I also think it’s important to point out in that video that drags, feints, footwork, a jump attack, and all types of other stuff are used.

    I don’t think TBS does a good enough job in discouraging this kind of behavior.



  • When I’m going 1v1 with some of the regulars on my usual server, we have these long lasting, epic parrying/counter-attack duels. Clashes of steel until someone finally slips up and gets hit. It’s really fun, tense, and fast-paced. Not the kind of thing you get to experience fighting against 99% of the players in this game though. It’s far easier to just feint a few times.

    No point to this post. Just wanted to share that experience. I don’t have a problem fighting against feinters anymore, and I, too, feint when the situation demands.



  • yeah dudeface… they’re called no-feint duels and they are much more rewarding and fun in my opinion. I used to be with everyone else defending feints and such, but i came to the realization with more hours of play the abuse that feints get because of the ability to do such things as i described numerous times earlier in this thread, and many others. Man at arms are the only class that have the ability to dodge and feint. The dodge gives them the ability to to move out of the way of any incoming attack, then if the attack was a feint, they can still parry after the dodge for the real one, or dodge again and still parry. They also have enough speed that when they run out of stamina, they can kite away if they choose to regain it… and then start again with the same maneuvers. Folks that play man at arms as their main duel class will tend to defend feints more because they don’t necesarily have to deal with them… they don’t have to guess because they can get out of the way… and react to the actual attack. that’'s why i called it somewhat of a “get out of jail free card”. Yes they have the disadvantage of being what you call “squishy”. However there are weapons that can also 2 hit knights, making them feel just as squishy. Headshots from the gmace… they do liike 80-90 damage to the head… i tihnk its 80. And when you have a late feinter, and late combo feinter all in the same string of attacks… it’s guesswork but if you guess wrong, you are dead. Mix in the instant lookdown overhands and you have yourself a duel that is just simply not fun whatsoever.

    Skilled players learn to deal with them with range, attakcing when they fieint… and guessing correctly, but in my opinion this game should be skill based, not guess based. Everything should be defendable with skill. Like i said i was in the same boat arguing pro-feints and why they add complexity to attacking, and more combinations in your arsenal… and so on and so forth… but i eventually came to the realization that they don’t take skill… you get free hits on your opponent, and you wouldn’t win half the duels without them. People that are heavy on feints tend to not be able to do a no feint fight, they typically don’t have as good footwork, cant parry as well, can’t time counters as well, don’t drag well… etc .etc. Shara’s video up there a few posts up show how combat should really be… i don’t know how much he feints in that video… but he also mains a Man at arms class, so he doesn’t have to deal with the feints as much if he chooses not to by using dodging as the way out of them.

    Take feints away from “skilled” or “high level” players… and most of them cannot manage to fight against a skilled player that uses no feints. even when i go against a heavy feinter… i can still overcome them with the skills ive mentioned, which is why i lack respect for anyone that does the late feints… and all the little things that become more exploitative than skill based. If the fight is not going their way, and they are low on health or something… they see it as a way to come back from the fight because you can basically get free hits on people form what would be a normal reaction to parry. Doing the drags and mousework take MUCH more skill than just pressing a button. It doesn’t take a genius to even time them or anything like that… so anyone saying feints take a certain level of skill… that level of skill is SO low that any new player that is in the first week of playing can do it and learn it quickly. It also takes no skill to look at the ground and roll your mousewheel down…

    Using drags and such, even the ones mentioned where you trick your opponent with torso movement to make it look like you are going to lookdown over, then dragging it all the way up towards the sky, then bringing it back down to make sure your hit lands and the right time… that takes a much higher level of skill. Also, when a skilled player does a lookdown overhead… they do not hit the ground… they also use mousework to make sure they pull up just before hittnig the ground… so that they can continue to combo their attack, this also takes mousework skill to accomplish.

    None of the above however, whether it be the lookdown to overhead drags… mousedrags with slashes… spped up attacks in the other direction… all of that… IT CAN ALL BE DEFENDED with skill and timing. The late feints… they cannot be defended against with skill, it’s a guessing game and that’s not what this game is meant to be about, or should be about. It took me many hours to realize the direction this game is going, and it needs to change in a way that skill beats maneuvers like this… or have the ability to defend against it… but without knowing how a player attacks… or taking a shot in the dark… you cannot defend against late feints.

    And by saying late feints, i’m talking about ones at the end of windup… the quick feint’s and feints that are out of range and such… those are defendable and easily seen… so don’t mix all feints into the category i am referring to when you think about what i’m talking about. Anyone who argues this does not understand the game as well just yet… veteran players know what i’m talking about… but some disagree because they want to keep that crutch available, but that’s all it is… a crutch.

    The suggestions i made above would effectively change the feinting mechanic in a way that is defendable with skill.



  • @hermanJnr.:

    Well herman, what you have to understand is that the range of your weapon means nothing with feints. At some point you are going to attack and they are going to parry you. They can then close all of the range you have by running forward with any type of attack… and unless you run the other direction every time they try to attack… they close the distance on you. You can’t backpedal faster than they can sprint forward. So what happens is… even if you use a spear… the only way to keep them on their toes is to do feints to maket hem think you will throw an attack. But they close the distance WITH the feint. They come in pretending to attack… but sprint forward while doing so… as long as they are in the danger zone of their attack hitting… they can then feint very late in their windup… and then go for the real attack while the player reacting has the good reaction of parrying. The range on the weapon does not matter whatsoever.

    I can see why you would think that… but the feint is the way to get in close, because when someone looks like they are going to throw an attack, you go on a defensive mostly unless you’re going to guess and call their feint and throw an attack of your own. The normal skilled reaction is to parry when the attack is at the end of the windup AND also in range of hitting you… but this is the time the fient happens… so this is why range doesn’t matter, because they only need to sprint towards you while attacking to close the distance of any weapon that has more range… so range is irrelevant.



  • @clayton-bigsby:

    I didnt’ contratdict myself in the two paragraphs though. For the feint you can’t parry twice during a late feint. For lookdown into upward drag, the drag slows the swing down in cases to where you can react and use additoinal footwork to get the 2nd parry off…. you cant do this with feint.

    You can’t do this with a lookdown switch to drag either… I don’t understand why you think you can. You AREN’T going to get the second parry off if the person dragging has the slightest clue about what he’s doing; same deal with a feinter.

    And i’m not going to respond to the others, i just want to make sure you know i’m not contradicting myself and those were 2 different scenarios, and not the same.

    Puposefully missing attacks involve reaction, and your correct reaction as a defender would be to parry the first attack when it’s about to hit. however you cannot say that the person CANNOT block the second attack from the combo.

    Now look who hasn’t been reading my entire post. I specifically gave examples for weapons like shortsword and daggers (fists work too). Those cannot be blocked on the follow-up after a miss due to their fast combo speed, assuming you attempted to parry the missed attack.

    Also, you say you’ve given me examples of things that cannot be defended against such as feints: no you have not. Everything you have described as a counter argument can be defended against with skill. Drags… ovehand drags, overhand lookdowns… missed combos… all of that can STILL be defended against using skills and reaction…

    Once again, didn’t fully read my post.

    First off, I didn’t say nothing can be defended against. I compared the situations between a LATE FEINT and a SYNONYMOUS FEINT (i.e. lookdown switch to drag, purposefully missed attacks with high combo speed weapons. Those can all be defended against, with footwork. The moment you fall for a switch drag or a missed attack from a high combo speed weapon IS THE EXACT SAME as being feinted. You are GOING TO GET HIT if you stand still, same as a feint. Your option at that point is to avoid the follow-up attack completely, or at least delay the hit long enough to where you can TRADE HITS with them; you are NOT going to get a second parry off. Of course, the difference is using the feint button is the LEAST RISK for the highest reward possible (because it takes the least amount of skill to use).

    I can actually prove that my other examples are synonymous with feinting with data, however, Root King hasn’t been on lately, and I’d be happy to oblige, because I have other video examples from other subjects not related to this I need to address. Once he’s back on and ready to record, I’ll get this going.

    …feints simply cannot at the end of the windup when they are feinted that late because it is no longer based on reaction…

    Read above, the moment you fail a parry due to “other methods of feinting” is the exact same scenario. You parry, and realize you parried too soon or they purposefully missed, you have to try to recover from that mistake by avoiding the next attack completely or delaying it long enough to trade hits.

    Saying “no feint games” or no feint dueling is low skill because parrys and blocks are overpowered… that’s kind of a cop-out. Maybe if you went into a duel and played no feint for a while… you’d realize that it DOES take skill. I used to think the way you do as well… but after putting probably another 400 hours into the game after my first 400 or so… i started realizing the people arguing about feints were right. The people that use feints typically have LESS skill than those who practice not feinting.

    Way to call me out. If you knew anything about me, you know that, while I do feint, I feint very rarely in a duel setting, unless I’m going up against a shield user. I agree that feinting takes less skill than my other tactics that are synonymous, but those tactics do not take that much to learn. To say anything in this game takes a lot of skill to perform is laughable; it’s far too slow paced.

    Anyway, I’m not arguing that feints take skill, or even defending them; I never have been. I’m arguing to show people who claim things to be luck from skill. Nothing in this game is luck, even feints. The only ‘random’ element in this game is latency (and only due to instability). There is no hard coded algorithm that presents a random number and impacts your ability to play the game; everything is controlled by you and your opponents; nothing in between. I do hope you read this paragraph, as it is the most important one here. I tried to capitalize what I thought was important so you don’t miss them in the previous paragraphs, though I’ve probably missed a few things to highlight.



  • I find that if I fall for a lookdown overhead followed into a delayed overhead (very hard to pull off properly by the way) I can just crouch and look up and I will have time to get a second parry off.

    Also you are just arguing the terms “luck” and “randomness” and “probability” but we all know how it works.



  • Feinting is a broken mechanic. The fact that you can feint countless times in a row and attack immediately after a feint are good examples. Feinting with 1 handers is the worst because it’s impossible to tell if they will feint or attack since the weapon speed is so high. These changes would help:

    1. You can no longer feint consecutively (2 times in a row or more)

    2. Add a recovery period after you feint that slowly returns you to the neutral pose instead of immediately.



  • The problem is not how many times you can feint in a row its how late into windup that you’re able to feint from. This is what creates problems.



  • @Dr.Nick:

    I find that if I fall for a lookdown overhead followed into a delayed overhead (very hard to pull off properly by the way) I can just crouch and look up and I will have time to get a second parry off.

    this was exactly one of the things i was saying. If one were to fall for the lookdown portion of the drag… and parry… the atttacker that drags is effectively slowing down his swing with the overhand… so if you as the defender crouch and lean back, you can still get another parry off… or even cause a miss if you use footwork to sidestep the overhand. point was, it’s still defendable and i’m right with you on that.

    I need to record some duels between some non-feinters and I as you did and get the word out there, and show how everything we do is defendable. Then people will be able to visually see it. I know you made a video a while back, but there’s probably more things that we do now that weren’t shown there… i’lll get on making a video right away. I’d especially like to feature mr. Radiant in there ;). Best non-feinter in the game imo



  • In my opinion, since servers can already disable 3rd person and fists (Which are the best IMO - seriously, who disables fists?), then they really should just add an enable/disable feint option.
    Simple enough.

    Also, I agree that the best duel I have ever had was up against another non feinter who was using the same weapon as me, it was fast paced, heart pounding and so satisfying and EXACTLY what I wanted from a melee game. The only downside was that the time it took for us to complete the duel, some players had already completed 3 duels :/



  • that just means you guys were probably pretty evenly matched, but no feint figths do tend to last a lot longer than feint fights… but what fun are the fights that are over in 3 seconds? it’s not really, the winner feels all badass for a second, but it’s not fun… not in duels at least…

    but in duels, time is not a factor… in other game modes it is… and i have no issue with feints existing because the point is… you hvea a time limit, an objective… you need to kill your opponenets quickly and move on. The more time you waste in these game modes… the less time you ahve to complete objective. So when time is i factor, i understand not wanting fights to take too long and therefore bypassing people anyway you can…

    but in duels, far more fun and skillful to have no feint duels… just an opinion i guess, not all will agree… but it’s still intense and fun. People think its a boring set of just attack, parry, attack, parry… but they have much more depth than that.



  • Clayton we spoke about that before, but like I said there, it doesn’t matter if the objective is completed or not in a competitive TO scrim. Each team takes a turn on the attack. Whoever gets the furthest quickest wins. Times are noted for both teams.

    I still stand by my view that team modes wouldn’t even change much without feints, but I’m saying that because even if they did, it doesn’t really matter. Battles can take longer… the only difference is still the most consistently coordinated and better team will win. Probably even moreso than now with one element of luck removed from combat.



  • @The:

    Probably even moreso than now with one element of luck removed from combat.

    This is exactly what annoys me. The competitive community will never grow as long as this mindset stays.

    Well, actually no, that’s wrong. Once more competitive maps are put in (usually by community), and matchmaking is put in, everyone with this mindset will be left behind.



  • It’s abundantly clear that no amount of words will ever dissuade either of us to change opinions on the matter, the only thing that might is video proof. I spoke to Clayton yesterday about trying to get a little TO going without any offensive feints. Who knows, maybe I am wrong and it really would force the game into a slow crawl.

    May is a very busy / exhausting month for me, but early in June I want to get that setup.



  • @The:

    It’s abundantly clear that no amount of words will ever dissuade either of us to change opinions on the matter, the only thing that might is video proof. I spoke to Clayton yesterday about trying to get a little TO going without any offensive feints. Who knows, maybe I am wrong and it really would force the game into a slow crawl.

    May is a very busy / exhausting month for me, but early in June I want to get that setup.

    It won’t slow it down THAT much, but it will slow it down. Feints have much less of an impact in a team setting.



  • Much much less in a team setting, especially TO. Ganging up and target switching are just ridiculously effective in the team setting.



  • ^^ +1


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