Long weapons vs. shields



  • I was playing many duels the last days and have noticed that Vg against shield is the new shield vs shield: boring, monotonous and tedious. Everytime I was up against someone with a shield, I thought…oh god, please not again.

    So why?

    As the guy with the long weapon (namely Vg) which are also very slow, you have to avoid facehugging at all costs. So what does a good Vg do against a shield? Sprint at enemy, bash his shield, sprint away. Rinse ans repeat, everything else gets you killed against pretty much any decent shield Knight.

    But the Knight also can’t do much. He has almost no chance of retaliation, as he cannot counter attack and the Vg is out of his reach before he can hit him. If he tries to hit the Vg without combo-feint-parry he gets hit (if the Vg knows what he is doing).

    What is causing this matchup to be so boring? Sprint and shields. Sprint denies the Knight any attack on the Vg, while a shield denies a Vg even odds in a fight(this is only true against very good shield users, as they can react to the feint-kick combo and thus are much harder to hit than a non shield user, because they are susceptible to feints)

    So what do I suggest to fix this?

    Sprinting circles in combat needs to go. There are multiple other reasons and solutions being discussed in another thread. Parry/block stopping a sprint would already fix this…but would make it very imbalanced for the Vg, who would now get facehugged to death. So kick would need a buff. Kick should be reverted to its old speed (or let’s say something around 0.15 windup) so you cannot react to it. Since you will soon be able to (somewhat) react to feints, this change would then be pretty much necessary anyway, as otherwise shield users would have to fail twice (feint AND kick “reactiontests”) to be hit. (and the best shield players now do not even fail to the current kick) This would also have the benefit of reintroducing a useful interupt (which many players are already requesting).

    So essentially these changes would turn Vg vs Knight with shield from a circle running chicken fighting a coward behind a shield into an intense “in-your-face-fight”. We would also get a fix to pretty much most of the circle sprint shit and reintroduce a useful interupt. Win-win for everyone.



  • I fight against shields with enormous amounts of look-down overheads -__-



  • Or you could switch from your puny 1 hander and pull out something with more range. Hell you can even use Longsword while shielding.

    Extreme range is supposed to counter 1 handers, though its still hard to pull off extreme range against a broad sword.

    I’m going to have to disagree. Vanguards are already weak enough.



  • I don’t do these things as a VG, those things are just stupid (running in circles). Another stupid thing is being able to jump during attacks…at least it looks stupid.

    Instead as a VG i have learn’t to hide my windups by turning away from my target (and looking down a little) so its less obvious what i’m doing, then as my attack releases i turn the attack and attempt find away around the shield. People seem to find this intimidating. If they don’t then i just persist and wear down their stamina and then have them for breakfast.

    Of course in TO you don’t always have this time, but then as often as not i can pummel people from behind when i catch them unawares. SO fair’s fair.



  • @giantyak:

    I don’t do these things as a VG, those things are just stupid (running in circles).

    Well let me tell you, you HAVE to do this against good Knights. Once a good shield Knight has stopped a Vgs sprint and is in his face it is pretty much dead Vg 9 out of 10. Because you can’t get good Knights with the kick. Or jump stabs. Or other stuff like this.



  • @Falc:

    So what does a good Vg do against a shield? Sprint at enemy, bash his shield, sprint away. Rinse ans repeat, everything else gets you killed against pretty much any decent shield Knight.

    Your implying that everyone is playing 100% the same way you are, which is not the case.



  • @CRUSHED:

    Your implying that everyone is playing 100% the same way you are, which is not the case.

    I’m not really implying it, I’m just saying it is the most efficient way. I have tried A LOT of things against shields and i have watched other good Vgs. If you don’t believe me go fight sponge as Vg. Staying in his range will get you obliterated very fast. But that is not surpising….what would you expect when one side has a much slower weapon than the other and cannot use feints (because good players like sponge will not let you kickstun them) with no advantages to make up for that? A Vg has to stay out of facehug range of a shield Knight, otherwise he is dead. There is no denying that.



  • @Falc:

    Sprinting circles in combat needs to go.

    +100
    There is nothing more annoying or ridiculous than the sight of a Vanguard being light as a feather and “kiting” an opponent.



  • @Falc:

    @CRUSHED:

    Your implying that everyone is playing 100% the same way you are, which is not the case.

    I’m not really implying it, I’m just saying it is the most efficient way. I have tried A LOT of things against shields and i have watched other good Vgs. If you don’t believe me go fight sponge as Vg. Staying in his range will get you obliterated very fast. But that is not surpising….what would you expect when one side has a much slower weapon than the other and cannot use feints (because good players like sponge will not let you kickstun them) with no advantages to make up for that? A Vg has to stay out of facehug range of a shield Knight, otherwise he is dead. There is no denying that.

    Greatsword lookdowns are very fast. You can’t say x playstyle is the most efficient way, every time you kite in a duel where its not your last chance to survive, against a very good duelist, you already made a mistake. Kiting is a free hit for anyone that knows what hes doing and doesnt have a super short weapon, and you even say you want kiting removed, lol, clearly you have no idea what your talking about. Theres alot of ways to get around shields, i’m not even going to list them here.

    Also you cant say long weapons vs shields is broken bla bla just because you cant beat one guy. Sponge is the best shield knight in the game and obviously he is extremely hard to beat, if you cant beat him its YOUR fault and not the games fault, because that playstyle he does is by no means OP and unbeatable.



  • @CRUSHED:

    Greatsword lookdowns are very fast.

    Any Knight 1h has the same speed or is faster. And can kill the Vg in 2 hits which the greatsword can’t. Your point?

    @CRUSHED:

    You can’t say x playstyle is the most efficient way, every time you kite in a duel where its not your last chance to survive, against a very good duelist, you already made a mistake.

    It is the most efficient. I’ve tested this playstyle and many others, I have watched the best Vgs what they do in the exact same situation and I have talked to them. You can kite a Knight with a shield quite easily. Works even against great players like sponge. Its the tactic that works best (or lets say the least bad) against him, and I have yet to see a better shield Knight.

    You don’t let a good shield Knight get close as Vg. That is the very situation you try to avoid. Because in close range the Knight has the advantages of attackspeed, damage (2 htk vs 3) and near immunity to feints. The Vg has the advantage in terms of……eh…eh yes he can strafe faster! that is going to totally make up for it.

    @CRUSHED:

    Kiting is a free hit for anyone that knows what hes doing and doesnt have a super short weapon, and you even say you want kiting removed, lol, clearly you have no idea what your talking about.

    It works. If you don’t believe me go fight Nomadz and Meanz from FF with their spears and you will see how well it works. But you pretty much have to do that with spears anyway, as being facehugged with a spear gets you killed so fast.

    @CRUSHED:

    Theres alot of ways to get around shields, i’m not even going to list them here.

    And every single one of them is working against parries too and far inferior to a feint. I’m not saying you can’t get around a shield. Its just that getting around a parry is soooo much easier because of feints and delays. But you know that anyway, so why do I have to tell you?

    @CRUSHED:

    Also you cant say long weapons vs shields is broken bla bla just because you cant beat one guy.

    I never said that anywhere nor is it true.

    @CRUSHED:

    Sponge is the best shield knight in the game and obviously he is extremely hard to beat, if you cant beat him its YOUR fault and not the games fault, because that playstyle he does is by no means OP and unbeatable.

    ….try reading my post and stop imagining stuff I never said.



  • @Falc:

    @CRUSHED:

    Greatsword lookdowns are very fast.

    Any Knight 1h has the same speed or is faster. And can kill the Vg in 2 hits which the greatsword can’t. Your point?

    You said something about vanguards only having slow weapons, yeah.

    @Falc:

    It is the most efficient. I’ve tested this playstyle and many others, I have watched the best Vgs what they do in the exact same situation and I have talked to them. You can kite a Knight with a shield quite easily. Works even against great players like sponge. Its the tactic that works best (or lets say the least bad) against him, and I have yet to see a better shield Knight.

    Wonder what your viewings on “best vanguards” are. Alot of tactics work vs kite shield users. Clearly you don’t know them if you think kiting is the best. Lol.

    @Falc:

    It works. If you don’t believe me go fight Nomadz and Meanz from FF with their spears and you will see how well it works. But you pretty much have to do that with spears anyway, as being facehugged with a spear gets you killed so fast.

    Good guys, fought them a couple of times, tough never had a problem with their kiting, or in general, i cant remember someone beat me with kiting. Same goes with the other players i consider good.



  • The only time I have a hard time against a shield is when the knight is also feint-spamming these ridiculous blunt weapon or SoW stabs. So it’s not really a shield problem, probably.



  • I’m going to respond to OP and noone else… and this is regarding his first post…

    vanguard vs shield knight and vice versa… the problem you are having OP is that you are so linear in your thought process. You assume that everyone plays the same way in your post and that’s just not the case. You need to be a little more creative and use different tactics. I don’t know why people complain so much about a kiting vanguard. I love when they kite because i know exaclty what they are doing, i can eitehr time my attack for when he returns, stay out of range then sprint forward and hit him with my attack. I can CHASE him by sprinting after him, just being ready to block whenever he decides to turn, which you should be ready and watching for etc.

    Also, not all vanguards just run up to shield, hit it and run away. It’s not a bad way to begin to see how the other player will react… but theres plenty of ways to get around shield users. Kicks are very effective, you can land a free hit or at least cause them to drop their shield and sprint around to one of their sides to try and get around it. You can also jump poke over shields, poke around shields, etc. As a vanguard i actually prefer my spear to go against shield users aand not a sword but to each their own. Also, against kiters, a lot of the vanguards will use lmb slash… why not use ducking when appropriate and queue swing and smash them when they do that? If you know what they’re doing… how are you still falling for it llol? So if kiting is your main issue with going against VG with shield… then you basically should have issues with any class, you do realize that knights, archer, maa… they can all kite you too?

    Point is, there are more tactics and things you can do for each class than what you mentioned, you need to change your mind to thinking something like ‘everyone that plays vanguard does this’ because that simply is not true.

    And did you really suggest that the game remove “sprinting in circles”?.. you’re joking right?



  • As a knight with a shield I don’t find that’s the way fights go vs. Vgs with spears/polearms.

    Usually the fight will go something like this; either the VG will face me and keep attacking and I block until I get close enough to attack, they kite around a bit until they realise I won’t follow them, or they’re really good. If they’re really good they will kite a bit but only to hide their wind ups and they try to attack the sides and follow up with a lookdown overhead. They might try a feint-jump-kick as well to get a free hit which may or may not work.

    Actually I think a subtle change to the sprint mechanism might be in order to reduce kiting but not really for the reasons here.



  • @CRUSHED:

    You said something about vanguards only having slow weapons, yeah.

    They are slow. Fastest Vg windup is 0.5. That is the SLOWEST of all Knight 1h weapons.

    @CRUSHED:

    Wonder what your viewings on “best vanguards” are. Alot of tactics work vs kite shield users. Clearly you don’t know them if you think kiting is the best. Lol.

    Clearly you seem to know the “best” tactic against kite shields as Vg. You are already implyimg that the second time now so why don’t you share it? Enlighten me with your omniscience!

    @CRUSHED:

    @Falc:

    It works. If you don’t believe me go fight Nomadz and Meanz from FF with their spears and you will see how well it works. But you pretty much have to do that with spears anyway, as being facehugged with a spear gets you killed so fast.

    Good guys, fought them a couple of times, tough never had a problem with their kiting, or in general, i cant remember someone beat me with kiting. Same goes with the other players i consider good.

    I’m quite sure they would have fared even worse in a closerange fight (that is where you will inevitably land as spear user if you don’t kite). But I’m sure you would also disagree with me here, because you already said kiting is always a mistake. And the power of a spear in close range combat has truly to be feared. No delays, no overheadlookdowns, no combos, slow as hell and takes 3 hits for a Knight!

    I’m by no means saying that kiting is op. It is the only thing a Vg can do sometimes, otherwise its death by facehug.

    @clayton: you really should have read the other posts, most of your points are covered there. Kiting works in this case because of 2 reasons:
    -shields allow no counter attack and have a shield drop time before they can attack
    -Vg weapons are much longer than Knight 1h

    It is not so much that kiting is too strong, the problem is everything else puts the Vg at a severe uphill fight. As long as both are in range, the Vg has only disadvantages (and those are HUGE disadvantages) aside from the very slightly better strafe speed which does not help you at all in 99.99% of the fights. You also have to keep in mind that I’m talking about high level play here, so stuff that works against other players (like jump-stab or feint-kick) does not work here anymore (or far too rarely).


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