Shieldbash with Shove Held, Kick if Not



  • Hi guys, something that’s always irritated me is how Shieldbash currently works.

    When I’m moving around and being mobile, I usually prefer to use Kick, as I can gauge the timings, range, knockback and everything else a lot better with it. When I’m playing defensively, I like bash. However this usually means putting AWAY my shield more than I’d like.

    I’ve always thought it would make more sense to have the “Shove” button KICK if Shield is DOWN, and Shield Bash if you have your Shield UP. Since I believe you can already bash with the shield up, the only functional change is that if you have it down, kick instead!

    Keep the animations and everything the same of course, but this would also sort of separate functionality in that Kick is a knockback, shieldbash is a quick interrupt. You could still do both with that same button, just you’d have the choice over which one you used (when using a shield).

    I feel this would not only feel smoother and more logical, but also give a bit extra choice in combat, being that kick is a “low” attack, and Shieldbash is a “high” one. When using that “Shove” button you could decide there and then which type you wanted to use to throw your enemy off, rather than being restricted because you have a shield equipped.

    I hate having to put AWAY my shield in order to boot someone in the face. Using a shield should not stop me using my feet! If anything it should give more defensive options, not just swap one.

    Revision Based on Patch 2 Change to Kick:
    @Patch:

    Kick reworked slightly: tapping and releasing kick will perform a quick shove that only knocks back and dazes, while holding the key down will result in the same kick speed as current, with the ability to stun enemies who are actively blocking with a shield.

    Bearing in mind the Patch 2 Change above. I’d now propose instead, (with a shield out, but not raised) tapping Shove does a Kick, holding it does a Shieldbash (whack version).

    Tapping shove with shield raised does the whack / slap version. Holding it with shield raise does the shield thrust / charge version.



  • I like this idea. There would need to be a difference between shieldbash and kick (more damage/stun instead of knockback but costs a lot of stamina) to differentiate. This would make shields a more viable option and give them some strategic value, while also compensating for weaknesses like being slow to attack/prone to stuns if kicked while blocking. I usually play as Knight in TO and I pick kite shield 90% of the time over throwing axes. I only use it to rush archers and block projectiles, then put it away when I get into combat, but if shieldbash had some advantage over kicking, like the same knockback as a kick but 10 or 15 damage instead of 5, I’d be more likely to keep it out and play very aggressively with it. This is balanced by the fact that you have to be actively blocking in order to execute it, thus leaving you open to free kickstuns.



  • I find it very annoying not to be able to use the superior kick when having a shield equipped.



  • A few disagree. Can anyone provide an opposing viewpoint on this for perspective?

    The only thing I could think of is that it’s giving people more choice, but since this is used defensively anyways, that should be exactly what picking up a shield is about heh…



  • I like the shield bash, it feels quicker and less immobilizing. Personally all the kicks need to be buffed slightly though. Try kicking as a vanguard compared to a maa or archer, lol!

    I think shield bash also has a further reach than kick, though I need to test that. But it sure damn feels that way.



  • @NoVaLombardia:

    I like the shield bash, it feels quicker and less immobilizing. Personally all the kicks need to be buffed slightly though. Try kicking as a vanguard compared to a maa or archer, lol!

    I think shield bash also has a further reach than kick, though I need to test that. But it sure damn feels that way.

    This proposal is to allow use of both with a shield equipped, not remove the bash.

    (Bash would be executed by raising your shield, then pressing the Shove button, which you can do already. The only change would be to have it Kick when your shield is down).

    I always feel the enemy can see my bash coming much easier, a kick is a bit harder since it comes from below, and has quite a long reach heh.



  • But the issue is, since I like my shield bash more, I don’t want to have to be forced to do your input you are suggesting.

    The solution to that is make it an option in the input tab to inverse button command for this action, like the way you can turn off double tapping, etc.



  • I am all for this suggestion.

    But the issue is, since I like my shield bash more, I don’t want to have to be forced to do your input you are suggesting.

    Why is this problematic to hold your shield up and instantly press kick button…?



  • I guess there’s the slight delay of actually raising the shield before being able to do it. Rather than what he can do now to execute a bash, which is just straight-up pressing the button.

    Not sure of a way round that though, other than using the ALT modifier maybe? Standard “Shove” does a Kick. ALT + Kick does a Bash. (If shield equipped, and shield is lowered. If shield is raised, it bashed regardless of whether ALT modifier is pressed or not).



  • I think there’s already a proposal for an ALT-kick which switches between the current kick (slow, does a bit of damage and stuns shield users) and the old kick (quick, does no damage, doesn’t stun but can flinch and pushes enemies away). I don’t know if TB are seriously considering it though (I hope they are).

    I agree with the suggested mechanic in the OP.



  • Any further comments before I pitch it to the devs? Results seem to be much in favour so far.

    It will likely be lower priority though.



  • I like the idea. Contextual shoving would feel like a nice bit of thoughtful polish animation.

    I always liked kicking more, feels more playful to boot someone as opposed to whapping them with your shield.

    The only time shield bash is really necessary over kick is when you want to shove while enemy projectile weaponry is aimed at you, in which case you’d be hold the shield up anyway at the time of shoving so I can’t see how there’d be any issues associated with this change.

    'Course I’d like this even more if this was accompanied by a buff to kicking…. say let us move forwards slightly more so we don’t have to make out with the target before stopping to initiate the kick, or maybe even make it so kick doesn’t flat out not work if there’s even a slight elevation difference between the kicker and the kickee. ;)



  • The problem is if you are facing a non-shield user then a kick will not stun them.

    So if you want to stun them you would have to raise your shield first, telegraphing that the shield bash is coming.

    That would make shield bash useless.



  • Shield bash is functionally identical to kick… shield-bash does not stun non-shield-users.

    The only advantage shield-bashing confers is blocking projectiles to the front for the duration of the bash, which you would be raising your shield for anyway to begin with.

    What are you talking about?



  • @Dibbz:

    Shield bash is functionally identical to kick… shield-bash does not stun non-shield-users.

    huh, as a knight with a kite shield I always get a free hit after a shield-bash. I guess I thought it was a stun.



  • Shield bash and kick currently operate in the exact same way (same code, different animations). You kick/shield bash someone with or without a shield, you stun them for 1.1 seconds. You kick/shield bash someone with their shield held up, you stun them for 1.2 seconds. This hasn’t changed since it was made this way in CU1.



  • @gregcau:

    @Dibbz:

    Shield bash is functionally identical to kick… shield-bash does not stun non-shield-users.

    huh, as a knight with a kite shield I always get a free hit after a shield-bash. I guess I thought it was a stun.

    Yeah, I often see people get easy hits after a shove. It’s basically down to the opponent foolishly thinking they can respond to being shoved by immediately attacking, even though they should know better after so many hours of playing.

    If you shove someone you can get the first attack in when you both recover from the shove, but regardless of how fast your weapon is they will be able to parry/block before your windup is done.

    –--------

    Also, kinda off topic, but whenever I’m fighting someone who’s against a ledge and I want to shove them off, I find that if they have a shield it’s almost impossible to shove them off, since the stunned animation for being shoved with your shield raised only moves you back a small step whilst you remain rooted to the ground, whereas the default shove sends you flying backwards.

    This means that if you’ve got a shield and your opponent really wants to kick you off the edge for the purpose of laughs then if you hold down RMB you’ll be virtually impossible to knock off, since they have to waste their entire stamina bar repeatedly kicking you just to move you the distance a single kick normally would.

    I dunno how this would be solved, but it is frustrating when my entire goal is to see how many people I can knock off before someone figures out I’m not actually trying to fight and kills me, and this one knight with a shield is just anchored to the ground refusing to stop blocking. :P



  • i still want to headbutt people to be honest. I actually like shield bash better than kick personally though. I just don’t typically use shields.



  • Revision Based on Patch 2 Change to Kick:
    @Patch:

    Kick reworked slightly: tapping and releasing kick will perform a quick shove that only knocks back and dazes, while holding the key down will result in the same kick speed as current, with the ability to stun enemies who are actively blocking with a shield.

    Bearing in mind the Patch 2 Change above. I’d now propose instead, (with a shield out, but not raised) tapping Shove does a Kick, holding it does a Shieldbash (whack version).

    Tapping shove with shield raised does the whack / slap version. Holding it with shield raise does the shield thrust / charge version.


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