Let the scene grow



  • I believe that any clan who has more than 8-10 (competitive) members is damaging the scene because we need alot of more active, competitive clans if this game is to go anywhere. Playing the same few clans over and over in an endless circle becomes kind of pointless, and it makes it really hard for less good clans to get anywhere because you have 2-3 really good clans that everyone wants to join, 2-3 average clans and perhaps 4-8 shit clans (most of them not very active) and as in any competitive game (which we want to believe that this game is) you can see those tiers as divisions. Clans tend to stick to their division, with the exception of the rare game where one feels they’re ready to step up or just throw out their feelers. So the scene is even smaller than it might seem if you look only on the clan count.

    Another problem with competitive clans that has alot of members is that they usually have a set of prefered players, those are the ones who are constantly improving and gaining real experience through scriming, while the rest are stuck improving their individual dueling skills (something that really don’t go far if you’re lacking scrim experience and teamplay. I would even say that 500 hours of dueling is worth less than 20 hours of real scrims) and pubstomping, the later something that would only grant a major improvement to a complete beginner. So like 60-80% of the current competitive scene are players who are mostly useless and 100% replaceable to their clans because the clans have the structure and management of communities but the mindset of a competitive team. I know incredibly good players from both NA and EU who has nowhere to turn because they don’t want to join a clan only to never get to play. They don’t start their own clans because they are afraid of turning into farm clans to the really big “topteams” who snatches all the good players they can get their hand on.

    The fault lies to 90% in the big “pro” clans who seem to believe that what makes the best clan is to have the clan with the highest amount of players with the most individual awesomeness; simple fact though: 30 awesome players won’t make you better in a 5v5 or whatever so stop the endless fucking recruitment circle, kick your redundant competitive members and let the scene grow. Killing competition by endless recruitment rather than facing said competition in scrims and tournaments is the most carebear aproach I could think of, intended or not.

    And also, to make this perfectly clear: Inter-clan training sessions are useless compared to real scrims. Scrims in fact, IS a way of training and a much better one. You should never be afraid to lose a scrim, they are the type of matches where you experiment, try out new tactics, team setups and so on and where you will notice when you’ve found something that works that you can bring to cups and tournaments. And it is also where you will see how other clans are developing in terms of gameplay and strategies. So the next time you’re thinking of having a training session, get a god damn scrim instead so we can get some activity in this game.

    In case anyone cares, I have 14 years behind me in competitive online gaming. I’ve seen this happen before countless of times in countless of games, it can only lead to one thing: a small shity game with a hardcore community of like 2 super big rival clans and 3-4 smaller ones refusing to admit the game is dead while the rest of the community has moved on to more popular games where something is actually happening. Chivalry is a fun game, even with the current bugs and glitches and shit. It is fun and fitting to play in competitive as well but if you want it to survive you gotta let the scene grow as I said earlier. This game will never be no league of legends or counter-strike 1.5/1.6, but it has potential enough to be a very active game with a decent-sized scene if we give it a chance.

    If anyone knows who I am you probably knew I used to play in RK (or still think I do so), however I left recently and started my own 5-man clan called Broken Banner. Alot of the reasons having to do with what I mentioned above and other than that some more personal issues. We’ve played 5-6 scrims or something in only 2 days now and I can say it’s the most fun and relaxing experience I’ve had in months in this game.

    Everyone is entitled to their values and opinions but hopefully I gave some of you something to think about. Perhaps at least some of you agree.



  • Very true. We really need more clans… and I know that this “recruiting more than you need” is true for IO…



  • Made an account to reply to this. You bring up some really good points, and I agree with you. There need to be more clans in this game, definitely. The lack of competition leaves people asking the same people for scrims over and over, which becomes a bore in the long run because it might as well just be inter-clan training since you begin to understand how other people play and develop tactics to counter that.

    However, I think you may be missing the point in that Chivalry, despite common knowledge, is not a competitive game. It is far from a competitive game. There are far too many bugs for this to be a competitive game. We (in clans) spend far too much time worrying about how the other team might occasionally ghost swing, or attack and parry at the same time, or whatever, whether it be intentional or not. A competitive game needs to be free of these things for it to really take off. For example - I never actually played Starcraft II, but think of it like this - Imagine the zerglings in SCII had double, or triple the health of what they have now. Certain players may boycott the use of zerglings in matches, but there will still be people using it because it’s an overpowered/bugged tactic. The same thing applies to chivalry - It needs to be completely balanced. Now, without bashing on Torn Banner - because I still really love the game for what it is, despite the shit that comes with it - I’ll move on.

    Outside of us ‘competetive’ players who play in ‘clans’ and form together to get some decent-level competetive scrims going, everyone has to understand that there is a whole other variety of players in the game. The entire ‘public player’ (or ‘pub’) scene, exists, and they don’t play the game to aspire to join a clan. The average pub player doesn’t wake up in the morning and say “Boy, today is gonna be the day that I join a clan and start to become famous!” or whatever… They simply load up the game and start LMBing the shit out of things in a TO game because it’s FUN to swing a sword around in public. That’s the simplicity of the game, and that’s what it was originally based around. It’s only AFTER you become better than average through pub play that you really begin to notice the amount of bugs that can kill this game off, and that’s why there is an abundance of new players constantly playing the game and that is also why that there are a lack of clan-less, high-rank, high-skilled players. They get tired of the shit and move on to another game, hindering the creation process of new clans due to the simple fact that there aren’t enough people to do so.

    Sure, yeah, in time, if the right fixes get put in place, Chivalry could develop a seriously great competitive scene which might develop into one of those Starcraft II-esque conventions where people show the damn thing on TV and everyone gets paid to play it or some shit, but right now, it’s not. It’s a fading dream because of the balance that needs to be applied to chivalry and also the public player scene which exists to just play the game for fun, albeit other things.



  • In reply to vaeka above, you are right. But I still have my hopes up that most glitches and exploits will be fixed, and as I said this game is no league of legends or anything but it still has a gameplay that would support competitive play and many are interested in it.

    If I wasn’t hoping that the devs will improve the current state of the game I wouldn’t be playing at all today.

    So yeah, in my eyes chivalry is a competitive game even with the glitches, people just have to have the balls to call them out when being used (like I did in a scrim yesterday for example) instead of being afraid of causing drama by calling the other clan exploiters.

    Edit:

    And the most obvious exploits today that completely ruin matches are maa superdodges and the counterattack parry where you’re basically invulnerable during the first half of the counterstrike, its completely balance changing and it’s not something anyone does by mistake. If people use these above glitches, tell them to stop, record it and put it on youtube. Do SOMETHING instead of just sit there quiet because you don’t want drama between your clans.



  • I definitely agree about large clans that will ruin the competitive scene for the game, however there ARE other factors that are a much bigger issue as to why this game’s population isn’t booming.

    Faucheur clan made a mistake of over recruiting, and we realized it a bit too late, however we resolved the main issue of it. Inhouse scrims are useless, but only if you are mixing up your teams for ‘fairness’. If you have separate teams within the clans, it benefits both teams. A team is supposed to play with the same people regularly to grow their synergy between each other; as long as that happens, in-houses are definitely beneficial to all parties. You give experience to the lower level teams in the clan and help them grow at the same time, including your own. Not to mention, you don’t have to worry about inter-clan drama when signing up for tournaments and deciding which people to take for the team.

    @kywild:

    And the most obvious exploits today that completely ruin matches are maa superdodges and the counterattack parry where you’re basically invulnerable during the first half of the counterstrike, its completely balance changing…

    Look. I know I am a MAA, however I am an advocate for the super-dodge for legit reasons. It’s definitely not balance tipping in any way. The only clan that is opposed to using it in the NA side is LG, and I respect those rules; in no way means was I dependant on it and I still do very well in those scrims without it. The super dodge is another option for MAA, and like any game, we should be striving for as many options as possible. Video coming soon.

    I’ve also played as other classes against other super-dodgers (I don’t just play MAA obviously), and is by no means impossible to deal with, or even hard to. Super-dodgers aren’t really any more of a threat than a regular maa, as long as you are aware of the mechanic, and are willing to learn how to defend against one (keep in mind, defense; attacking one is still the same, because super-dodge can only be used offensively during an attack, so only ONE iteration to learn). Knights are still by far the most OP in team situations. This is why you always see 4 knights in 8v8 TO.

    As for the invincibility during a counterattack, I am not aware of that or how it works. A video would be grand. However, to compare invincibility to a little extra distance on a dodge (which can only be used in ONE interation of the dodge) is extreme. Obviously invincibility is a huge balance issue.



  • @NoVaLombardia:

    I definitely agree about large clans that will ruin the competitive scene for the game, however there ARE other factors that are a much bigger issue as to why this game’s population isn’t booming.

    Faucheur clan made a mistake of over recruiting, and we realized it a bit too late, however we resolved the main issue of it. Inhouse scrims are useless, but only if you are mixing up your teams for ‘fairness’. If you have separate teams within the clans, it benefits both teams. A team is supposed to play with the same people regularly to grow their synergy between each other; as long as that happens, in-houses are definitely beneficial to all parties. You give experience to the lower level teams in the clan and help them grow at the same time, including your own. Not to mention, you don’t have to worry about inter-clan drama when signing up for tournaments and deciding which people to take for the team.

    @kywild:

    And the most obvious exploits today that completely ruin matches are maa superdodges and the counterattack parry where you’re basically invulnerable during the first half of the counterstrike, its completely balance changing…

    Look. I know I am a MAA, however I am an advocate for the super-dodge for legit reasons. It’s definitely not balance tipping in any way. The only clan that is opposed to using it in the NA side is LG, and I respect those rules; in no way means was I dependant on it and I still do very well in those scrims without it. The super dodge is another option for MAA, and like any game, we should be striving for as many options as possible. Video coming soon.

    I’ve also played as other classes against other super-dodgers (I don’t just play MAA obviously), and is by no means impossible to deal with, or even hard to. Super-dodgers aren’t really any more of a threat than a regular maa, as long as you are aware of the mechanic, and are willing to learn how to defend against one (keep in mind, defense; attacking one is still the same, because super-dodge can only be used offensively during an attack, so only ONE iteration to learn). Knights are still by far the most OP in team situations. This is why you always see 4 knights in 8v8 TO.

    As for the invincibility during a counterattack, I am not aware of that or how it works. A video would be grand. However, to compare invincibility to a little extra distance on a dodge (which can only be used in ONE interation of the dodge) is extreme. Obviously invincibility is a huge balance issue.

    Yeah MAA superdodge is nowhere near the counterattack parry glitch, I can agree on that. It’s just that through some neat keybinds, the maa superdodge can be quite insane. If done manually it’s not too bad, as you described it.



  • Well, anything with neat keybinds is insane. You should see the way our guy, SiN, uses his poleaxe. He uses some sweet ass mouse-macro timing to blend and hide his animations really well. He does them manually as well though, as most people do.

    Macros are only really useful in very specific situations. I don’t use any myself, but golly i wish i had a mouse that could ;)



  • Although I don’t play in the competitive scene, I’m a big fan of it, and I watch every scrim I can find with interest. That said, I really do hope the scene grows, and have hoped for some months, but I haven’t seen much expansion. I’ll support it either way though.

    Even though your post mostly addresses concerns only clan members have to think about, I can completely see how your statements about (paraphrasing) member hoarding, and lack of variety in clans of similar skill level can affect the scenes long term growth.

    The problem I see with all the best players being under the same banners is, who’s training the new guys? And the lower skilled teams just starting out in the scene? Sure the new clan’s, or makeshift teams, with less experienced members could become “farm clans” as KY put it, and get their ass kicked until they learn a thing or two, but is this the best way to develop a team, or develop a system of progression and growth?

    Basically, I think there should be almost a mentorship program. I think KY has the right idea forming a small elite team of similar skilled guys that can play together regularly, but I also think that instead of top clans hoarding the best members as subs or extras, they should take on the mid, or lower skilled guys instead. Mentor them up, teach them about the effective tactics, setups, teamplay, and what exploits actually are and how to recognise, report and avoid them. how long do you think it would take for almost anybody to reach a high skill level with the right training and directions?

    Right now, it feels like the best way to join a good team is to log a couple hundred hours of FFA duel, discover the magic of a combo feint, till you can drop a few of the good guys in a clan and catch their notice. Not many people have the spare time to do all that, or even the desire for that matter.

    But if we want the scene the grow, we gotta keep inviting the new guys into it right?

    To sum up my point, I just think the larger, high skilled clans should encourage their other guys to branch out, start new teams like KY did, but remain friends. Share a TS, whatever. You can still play together, scrim each other to practice, etc. But I also think that until they start inviting new blood to take part in the scene, and get experience alongside the best players, or we’ll just see the same names in the cup finals.

    Either way, I support everybody playing in every Chivalry clan, and I wish you all the best of luck in the future.



  • Honestly until all the dodgy exploits and unbalanced weapons are fixed its not going to grow.

    There are a lot of very good non-clan players who just play for fun but who do not have a clan to exchange exploits with.

    Once there is a level playing field where everyone has the same information I would see good players joining clans. Right now it is a little intimidating because clan members have the details on how to easily bypass a block (for example).



  • @Higher:

    Although I don’t play in the competitive scene, I’m a big fan of it, and I watch every scrim I can find with interest. That said, I really do hope the scene grows, and have hoped for some months, but I haven’t seen much expansion. I’ll support it either way though.

    Even though your post mostly addresses concerns only clan members have to think about, I can completely see how your statements about (paraphrasing) member hoarding, and lack of variety in clans of similar skill level can affect the scenes long term growth.

    The problem I see with all the best players being under the same banners is, who’s training the new guys? And the lower skilled teams just starting out in the scene? Sure the new clan’s, or makeshift teams, with less experienced members could become “farm clans” as KY put it, and get their ass kicked until they learn a thing or two, but is this the best way to develop a team, or develop a system of progression and growth?

    Basically, I think there should be almost a mentorship program. I think KY has the right idea forming a small elite team of similar skilled guys that can play together regularly, but I also think that instead of top clans hoarding the best members as subs or extras, they should take on the mid, or lower skilled guys instead. Mentor them up, teach them about the effective tactics, setups, teamplay, and what exploits actually are and how to recognise, report and avoid them. how long do you think it would take for almost anybody to reach a high skill level with the right training and directions?

    Right now, it feels like the best way to join a good team is to log a couple hundred hours of FFA duel, discover the magic of a combo feint, till you can drop a few of the good guys in a clan and catch their notice. Not many people have the spare time to do all that, or even the desire for that matter.

    But if we want the scene the grow, we gotta keep inviting the new guys into it right?

    To sum up my point, I just think the larger, high skilled clans should encourage their other guys to branch out, start new teams like KY did, but remain friends. Share a TS, whatever. You can still play together, scrim each other to practice, etc. But I also think that until they start inviting new blood to take part in the scene, and get experience alongside the best players, or we’ll just see the same names in the cup finals.

    Either way, I support everybody playing in every Chivalry clan, and I wish you all the best of luck in the future.

    I agree on many points you brought up. It’s definately hard on new players at times and it would be nice if there was a way to ease them into the competitive scene.



  • @NoVaLombardia:

    Well, anything with neat keybinds is insane. You should see the way our guy, SiN, uses his poleaxe. He uses some sweet ass mouse-macro timing to blend and hide his animations really well. He does them manually as well though, as most people do.

    Macros are only really useful in very specific situations. I don’t use any myself, but golly i wish i had a mouse that could ;)

    Yeah, its a bit shity, you can for example really easy make a dodge bind so you can dodge while running even tho the game don’t normally allows you to do this.



  • Thank god this game isn’t anything similar to LoL…

    About the super-dodge exploit, i’ve actually tested it with Nal and i’ve found it actually skips a segment of animation and practically teleports the user that extra distance you see. Not only that but the hit tracers you can make with the super-dodge exploit is quite frankly insane. No idea what that counter-attack invincibility thingy is.



  • @gregcau:

    Honestly until all the dodgy exploits and unbalanced weapons are fixed [the community] is not going to grow.

    Incorrect. More advertising (other than just steam and word of internet mouth), matchmaking, CONTENT (especially user generated), and better interfaces is what attracts more players to stay; the diamond is already here, it just needs to be cut.

    Once there is a level playing field where everyone has the same information I would see good players joining clans. Right now it is a little intimidating because clan members have the details on how to easily bypass a block (for example).

    The majority of the pubs complain about these things and don’t make any effort to work on their own ability. The information is out there, there are videos, tactics, tons of information out there on youtube, especially HEXEN’s stuff. The only concern is giving it the easiest possible access by directly associating it to the game’s website.

    Bypassing a block is not some secret that nobody wants to let out. It has been shown; in fact, it is INTUITIVE. Your first instinct when fighting someone (especially with a shield), is to not attack their block; how is that not intuitive? A person can then find their own way the best way for THEM to solve this problem.

    Yeah, its a bit shity, you can for example really easy make a dodge bind so you can dodge while running even tho the game don’t normally allows you to do this.

    You can do this without the macro. The macro just makes it happen with the least amount of error possible. The other issue with perfect macros is accounting for latency, which can screw you over more times than not; this is what SiN tells me at least, since I have no experience with this, but it definitely makes sense.



  • @NoVaLombardia:

    You can do this without the macro. The macro just makes it happen with the least amount of error possible. The other issue with perfect macros is accounting for latency, which can screw you over more times than not; this is what SiN tells me at least, since I have no experience with this, but it definitely makes sense.

    Well, as I said some things, like allowing dodges while running is 100% perfect because it’s 100% clientbased as well as many other things in chivalry. There only thing afaik that takes a roundtrip to the server is stamina and hp. Even things like stuned/dazed states are clientside, the server just tells the player he got dazed but if the player for example is speedhacking he gets out of it in a milisecond. Right now there is a shit ton of evil things you can do with simple console commands and binds, unfortunately. Hopefully many players are like me and want to stay clean so that they still can kill shit when/if the game is fixed, but it still sucks that so many players go their way to do these things only to get a false sense of accomplishment =/



  • @kywild:

    Hopefully many players are like me and want to stay clean so that they still can kill shit when/if the game is fixed, but it still sucks that so many players go their way to do these things only to get a false sense of accomplishment =/

    The good players always adapt to any circumstance.



  • @NoVaLombardia:

    Once there is a level playing field where everyone has the same information I would see good players joining clans. Right now it is a little intimidating because clan members have the details on how to easily bypass a block (for example).

    The majority of the pubs complain about these things and don’t make any effort to work on their own ability. The information is out there, there are videos, tactics, tons of information out there on youtube, especially HEXEN’s stuff. The only concern is giving it the easiest possible access by directly associating it to the game’s website.

    Bypassing a block is not some secret that nobody wants to let out. It has been shown; in fact, it is INTUITIVE. Your first instinct when fighting someone (especially with a shield), is to not attack their block; how is that not intuitive? A person can then find their own way the best way for THEM to solve this problem.

    You miss the point, I’ve seen on twitch clans accidentally let out clan secrets as to how exploit.

    Back in the day as one example it was the queued alt attack which showed to the defender attack on one side while the attacker is actually attacking on the other side.

    Its those kind of exploits which at the time were not common knowledge that clans would share amongst their own members allowing them to destroy opponents.

    I believe that is now fixed so that is what I am talking about when it comes to a level playing field.



  • its hard to play competitively with so many bugs and exploits imo

    once those are fixed and we can make our own maps I can see this being pretty competitive, right now its just scratching the surface.



  • Its one thing having a competitive scene with a point and shoot game but this is much more complex.

    Competitive scene is not where the money is anyway. There is what 100 people that play competively?

    Hardly a good business model.

    They need to evolve the game to appeal to a larger market.



  • @gregcau:

    You miss the point, I’ve seen on twitch clans accidentally let out clan secrets as to how exploit.

    Back in the day as one example it was the queued alt attack which showed to the defender attack on one side while the attacker is actually attacking on the other side.

    Its those kind of exploits which at the time were not common knowledge that clans would share amongst their own members allowing them to destroy opponents.

    I believe that is now fixed so that is what I am talking about when it comes to a level playing field.

    When we discovered it, we shared it on youtube, because our post about it got deleted. We were furious that this was in the game. When game breaking bugs like this are in the game, especially for this long, as much exposure as possible is needed in order to get it hotfixed the next day.

    I was especially furious when the method of dealing with the problem was to suppress as much information on it as possible; the devs themself did this, and thus made me distrust them as a player. When we discovered it in our clan, we informed everyone inside the clan to be aware of it, and by any means necessary, not abuse it.

    Since information was being suppressed in these forums, we decided to take matters in our own hands with the video that demonstrates it, and showing it to as many people as possible. Any server we joined we told people to watch the video and we said "Ever wonder the real reason your blocks aren’t working? Here’s why! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dkMQpNz_A_0

    We discovered it the day before that was posted on youtube. Being secretive about ANY feature in a game is toxic to the community, whether it is a bug, or a neat mechanic that can be exploited. Bugs need to be exposed, not suppressed, because it will force a hotfix if it’s game breaking enough. Tactics and mechanic demonstrations only bolster the information that is available to everyone, boosting the competitive scene to more players. Of course, that alone, is not enough.

    While I wouldn’t be surprised if there are clans that keep this information to themselves, I shudder when I think that these same people who want this game to strive do so many toxic things to the game and its community.

    @zombo:

    its hard to play competitively with so many bugs and exploits imo

    The bigger issue is the huge disconnect between competitive level play and pub play. Matchmaking is a bridge to connect those gaps. That’s the real issue. The other issue is map tools to make maps that are more suited for the competitive level and will help matchmaking even further.

    Good interfaces are also key. People need access to information easily and quickly, there needs to be a direct connection in order to access all of the community information regarding guides, strategies, mechanics, etc. FROM INSIDE THE GAME. Server browsing, matchmaking, and information need to be accessed; the accessibility is one of the main issues that needs to be addressed.

    I wish I had the opportunity to work on that. I would do anything to bolster this game’s community and competitive play (i’m a designer and animator, so hint hint TB, shameless plug).



  • @NoVaLombardia:

    @kywild:

    Hopefully many players are like me and want to stay clean so that they still can kill shit when/if the game is fixed, but it still sucks that so many players go their way to do these things only to get a false sense of accomplishment =/

    The good players always adapt to any circumstance.

    According to some I am one of the better knights in EU, and I don’t rely on filthy exploits just because my opponents does if that is what you mean by adapting.

    The MAA superdodge for example does give advantage (otherwies noone would be using it) and it’s not intented, so where do you draw the line of what is acceptable and what is not? A few patches ago you could start the game with -benchmark and get the ultimate speedhack. Does that mean I can use it because it’s in the game? 1 patch ago there was a testparry command in console that you could bind together with attack making you block and attack at the same time (looking only like a block to everyone else, and at the same time performing very fast and invisible attack). Again, would it have been cool if people used it since it was in the game? Oh and ghostswings, you know the one everyone was always saying they didn’t do on purpose? Well, 95% of them did. But since it was just about timing your counters to reproduce it, i guess it’s fine its not cheating at all. After all, it was in the game. I also figured out how to reproduce idleflinch 100% of the time before the content patch was released, I wish now that I abused instead of leting it go, seeing how its fine to use whatever the fuck you want in this game as long as you’re not directly hacking the client.

    There is no way to say where to draw the line, so either you cut the bullshit or you allow EVERYTHING. I know you can’t expect others to do this on pubs and shit, but in scrims/tournaments/whatever just make rules, if someone breaks them then fuck em don’t play them ever again, ban them from your tournaments etc. But people are being such pussies because some glitches favor them and some don’t so they rather just shut their mouth so they can keep abusing their favorite bug in the game. Just stop using them, it’s bad enough with the balancing of weapons atm where every single 1v1 is basically two people stabing eachother with flanged mace or hws.

    ANd yea… i know ppl complain there’s no recording ability in chiv and blabla, but seriously just get open broadcaster or something even with a shit computer you can record at some rediculous resolution like 480p and still get a good view of what is happening if someone should break the rules.


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