[Archers] An Honest dicussion…



  • If many of you had not played Age of Chivalry (AOC) before Chivalry then you sadly have no idea how dialed in archer were class wise. With most of this discussion I will leave out Pebble throwers as that is mere novelty and Javelins because over the years they were the least dialed in class in the game and they deserve their own thread.

    AOC Archer History:
    In AOC archers were equally annoying as they are in Chiv, however, they were very well balanced yet required a greater level of skill to master. They were THE ranged class. Period. They were valueable as a major support class for doing objectives. The highly skilled archers were amazing. Crossbows could one hit any class at short range while skilled xbow players could actually get range kills with it, and long bows would take 2 -3 hits at a greater range. Their armor were limited as well as their melee but their running speed was fast enough to out run everything but maybe a MAA. There were no crosshairs. The aiming was used like in real life, with the tip of the arrow or in the case of the Xbow there was an aiming upright. Archers were easily one hit by 1/3 of the classes, mostly heavy weapons. Archers could melee successfully IF they had managed to sink in an arrow or two but to parry a heavy weapon they would lost stam and health from a heavy weapon.
    **
    Forward to Chivalry:**
    With the addition of different types of long bows, cross bows and arrow tips there had to be some understandable changes to how the archer was played and the effects of these weapons. Most of these changes are dead on even with the pebble slingers.

    Currently this class is out of balance and requires less skill than it did in AOC. What makes this class out of balance? It is 3 fold. One is the cross hairs and the camera angle in first person. Two is the back stab bonus and three is the melee capabilities.

    The crosshair along with 3rd person really crippled this game as far as skill level. Yes I know you can turn it off but sadly too many have become totally dependent upon it. But what makes it worse is the camera angle of the archer so that the tip is by no means a means of aiming so turning off the crosshair makes it almost unplayable. Thus bad game design. This sadly is true with all player views with all weapons.

    To test this, simple go up to a wall in first person and find your max range of your stab. Do not move but hit P and change your perspective and stab again and repeat. What you will see is that with every different perspective view, the stab hits at a different locations per perspective.

    Overall, just bad camera angles. This applies to the archer in that it requires minimal skill and just a little practice. Also because of the bad camera angles, it is hard to tell if the archer is actually aiming at you. How many times have you approaced an archer and because of the direction of the player model, you think you have him by suprise only to watch the arrow fly out of the bow at a really weird angle and hit your? I am not talking about an archer that turns and hits you, I am talking about the arrows coming out of the bow almost perpendicular to where he is pointing and hitting you.

    The Back Stab Bonus, sorry but this is lame, along with most of the “special” abilities. Lets not even talk about how much the Vanguard lunge is a complete failure. I would remove this as well. The archer by default is a special ability, that of killing at range. It doesn’t require an additional bonus. It should be common sense that if an archer shoots you in the back, it would be just as devistating if they hit you in the front unless you are wearing a shield on your back.

    Lastly, Archer Melee, This is my biggest bone of contention as far as out of balance. The major difference between AOC and Chiv is that archers do not fear any class at melee because any semi skilled archer can melee 2v1 and 3 v 1 more effectively than any class. They move faster, parry faster and attack faster than most classes. Their only disadvantage is low armor.

    Considering that they can 1 shot every class at range is quite powerful enough. Archers should be punished if they fail in shooting accurately. In other words they have the entire map to shoot and kill the enemy usually hidden behind barricades and up on walls not reachable by their enemy, but IF they fail in sinking an arrow into an enemy, the enemy should not suffer being spammed to death by an archer. Archers should pay the price of failure at range and should either run away to gain distance, take damage when parring heavy weapons and or be one hit by more classes.

    This was true in AOC and it forced archers to gain more skills in…… wait for it… Archery! AKA the name Archers! Archers are currently ranged MAAs. Where is the balance?

    In conclusion, I feel that the back stab damage (and the stupid Van Lunge) should be removed. Archers should take additional health damage while successfully parring against slow heavy weapons and more classes should be able to 1 hit archers with a stab to the face or an successful overhead. This will change how archers are played and require more skill to play the archers and keep them were they belong, as a ranged class that can melee if absolutely have too. Another side effect is that this will become a specialized class and there will be less servers having to put archer limits and thus less teams with nothing but archers.



  • I really don’t like the idea of archers working like a long-ranged sniper class. It’s already heavily encouraged that archers try and stay away from melee combat and reducing their effectiveness at close range is just going to encourage archer players to stand back away from the fighting even further. They don’t have many advantages in close range. Any other class will typically beat at archer in a melee fight unless there is a major skill difference.

    In all honestly I think including bows and crossbows in this game was a bad idea. The way the developers describe the game as being about fast paced melee combat just completely is just completely contradicted by the play-style of archers, which almost feels like the anti-melee class. Ideally I think the class should be converted into a more skirmisher role with more throwing weapons, but we all know that isn’t going to happen so what I think should be done that seems pretty reasonable is that ranged weapons get damage falloff at long range so sniping is a less effective tactic and it brings archers somewhat closer to the actual fighting.



  • I would like to see the crosshair be removed.



  • @HammelGammel:

    I would like to see the crosshair be removed.

    I second this.



  • I don’t agree with the crosshair being removed, I would never hit anything.

    I agree with the backstab being removed - because it makes no sense, why should an archer get a bonus from hitting behind but a vanguard should not?

    Most of the time archers get charged down and fight from the front.

    If you want backstab damage create a thief class (which would not fit into the game).



  • @gregcau:

    I don’t agree with the crosshair being removed, I would never hit anything.

    They could align the arrow so, that the tip of it points to the right place, like in AoC. There it worked just perfectly, but was never too easy.



  • @HammelGammel:

    @gregcau:

    I don’t agree with the crosshair being removed, I would never hit anything.

    They could align the arrow so, that the tip of it points to the right place, like in AoC. There it worked just perfectly, but was never too easy.

    ok sure, but then then whats the difference, you have a crosshair with a different user interface.



  • (For context note that my main class is javelineer.)

    Did something change while I wasn’t looking because there is NO backstab bonus on ranged attacks; there is no numerical benefit for shooting someone in the back or the front. The backstab bonus helps give archers a functional purpose if they are forced into the melee brawl and especially makes javelins a more effective class since they will be spending such a large amount of time up close.

    I also think it’s too much to ask for more weapons to OHK, as well. Here’s a list of weapons that can do that:

    Archer: Longbow, Warbox, Crossbow, Heavy Crossbow, Javelin, Short Spear, Heavy Javelin
    Vangaurd: Greatsword, Claymore, Zweihander, Bardiche, Brandistock
    Knight: Longsword, Messer, Maul, Double Axe, Grand Mace

    Do you really need more? I think it’s challenging enough that I have to hit a vanguard three times with the heavy javelin, and it takes upwards of six shortsword hits to kill a knight sometimes. Both of these classes have the capability to OHK the archer as well.

    If you want to make the archer class harder to play you can’t just go about nerfing every aspect of the class. You should also note that there is a whole tree of weapons that encourage close combat and the changes you suggest would drive the javelins further into the ground despite the initial challenge already present.



  • @dilbadil:

    (For context note that my main class is javelineer.)

    Do you really need more? I think it’s challenging enough that I have to hit a vanguard three times with the heavy javelin

    Well I suspect javelineer is not your main… Heavy javelin almost kills a vanguard with one torso hit (90 dmg).

    I think all javelineers agree the class requires love - not in damage but in peripherals - better visibility with buckler shield, only prevent throwing javs in a row - dont prevent switching/blocking, add cooler overhead attack etc.



  • @gregcau:

    @dilbadil:

    (For context note that my main class is javelineer.)

    Do you really need more? I think it’s challenging enough that I have to hit a vanguard three times with the heavy javelin

    Well I suspect javelineer is not your main… Heavy javelin almost kills a vanguard with one torso hit (90 dmg).

    I think all javelineers agree the class requires love - not in damage but in peripherals - better visibility with buckler shield, only prevent throwing javs in a row - dont prevent switching/blocking, add cooler overhead attack etc.

    That’s msot of it yeah. Damage is perfectly fine. 1st jav oneshoots an archer in torso and so on.
    3rd jav oneshoots a maa in torso. 2nd jav has great speed and range.
    Damage is perfect. Only the heavy could use a slight buff in speed and range.
    Just a slight one.
    Buckler is shitty, we all know it. Recovery from throwing a jav shouldnt include blocking. Its bullshit. Huge punishment for jav’ers. Ammo could be +1 but I cant complain.
    And finally, you should be able to switch to secondary without the crappy buckler, by pressing one button. Not 2.



  • @dilbadil:

    (For context note that my main class is javelineer.)

    Did something change while I wasn’t looking because there is NO backstab bonus on ranged attacks; there is no numerical benefit for shooting someone in the back or the front. The backstab bonus helps give archers a functional purpose if they are forced into the melee brawl and especially makes javelins a more effective class since they will be spending such a large amount of time up close.

    I also think it’s too much to ask for more weapons to OHK, as well. Here’s a list of weapons that can do that:

    Archer: Longbow, Warbox, Crossbow, Heavy Crossbow, Javelin, Short Spear, Heavy Javelin
    Vangaurd: Greatsword, Claymore, Zweihander, Bardiche, Brandistock
    Knight: Longsword, Messer, Maul, Double Axe, Grand Mace

    Do you really need more? I think it’s challenging enough that I have to hit a vanguard three times with the heavy javelin, and it takes upwards of six shortsword hits to kill a knight sometimes. Both of these classes have the capability to OHK the archer as well.

    If you want to make the archer class harder to play you can’t just go about nerfing every aspect of the class. You should also note that there is a whole tree of weapons that encourage close combat and the changes you suggest would drive the javelins further into the ground despite the initial challenge already present.

    I think you are missing the point. While those weapons “CAN” theoretically one hit an archer, it is rare and it has to be under the exact perfect circumstances. I think the number of weapons that can consistently one hit archers is actually 3. The double axe, maul, maybe the Znoobhander. Even the Halberd can do it, rarely, but only from behind or blind sided and while using the shitty lunge while the archer is shooting.

    YES archers should be more challenging and have a higher skill level. Archers by definition are a ranges class. There is nothing wrong with having a sniper class IF they are easy to kill at close range. The only reason why there are throwing axes and knives in this game was so that knights and vanguards could kill fleeing archers but sadly they have been misused against everything else.

    While some may say that killing archers are currently easy, they either haven’t played against a good archer or they only play heavy classes and tend to one shot them. Most of my skilled clan mate archers can take on 2v1 and 3v1 and win regardless of the classes against them due to the speed of their attacks and unlimited parry any weapons without damage.

    The point about the crosshairs is that of the camera angles and actual hit locations between perspectives. This has two effects, one is it makes it so much easier to just put your cross hair on your target making arching a lower skill level class and two, from the enemy’s point of view, hard to tell if the archer is actually aiming at you. Truly knowing if an archer is aiming at you allows you to dodge arrows better as well as flank an archer without being hit by an arrow launching perpendicular to the bow.

    In AOC, the camera angle of the bow, made the bow visually block a small portion of the screen. You were forced to aim using the tip of the arrow, like in real life and then adjust windage and elevation accordingly to your moving target. In Chiv that is minimalised to where all you have to do is line up the crosshair.



  • @trickshot:

    @gregcau:

    @dilbadil:

    (For context note that my main class is javelineer.)

    Do you really need more? I think it’s challenging enough that I have to hit a vanguard three times with the heavy javelin

    Well I suspect javelineer is not your main… Heavy javelin almost kills a vanguard with one torso hit (90 dmg).

    I think all javelineers agree the class requires love - not in damage but in peripherals - better visibility with buckler shield, only prevent throwing javs in a row - dont prevent switching/blocking, add cooler overhead attack etc.

    That’s msot of it yeah. Damage is perfectly fine. 1st jav oneshoots an archer in torso and so on.
    3rd jav oneshoots a maa in torso. 2nd jav has great speed and range.
    Damage is perfect. Only the heavy could use a slight buff in speed and range.
    Just a slight one.
    Buckler is shitty, we all know it. Recovery from throwing a jav shouldnt include blocking. Its bullshit. Huge punishment for jav’ers. Ammo could be +1 but I cant complain.
    And finally, you should be able to switch to secondary without the crappy buckler, by pressing one button. Not 2.

    This is why I left Javelins out of this discussion as they could use their own thread as much does not apply to these guys since they are really a mid range, melee class. The history of their development in AOC to Chiv has it’s own ups and downs and really deserves it’s own discussion thread.



  • Shortsword needs adjusting, Cudgel might be a bit harder to use once the feint fixes are implemented (last second feints on that weapon being incredibly confusing) Archer can be an incredibly powerful class when played right in melee, but you get minced against competant people as one mistake means the end for you.



  • @gregcau:

    Well I suspect javelineer is not your main… Heavy javelin almost kills a vanguard with one torso hit (90 dmg).

    I think all javelineers agree the class requires love - not in damage but in peripherals - better visibility with buckler shield, only prevent throwing javs in a row - dont prevent switching/blocking, add cooler overhead attack etc.

    The heavy javelin is my most used weapon, actually. And it’s 95 or so damage so that a shield bash can be a possible follow-up. I’m also talking about the stab, not the throw. It is possible to kill with two hits to the chest, but the weapon comes in at an arc and your quite likely to hit the arm instead during a fight. For the most part you should expect to kill in three hits.

    @Retsnom:

    I think you are missing the point. While those weapons “CAN” theoretically one hit an archer, it is rare and it has to be under the exact perfect circumstances. I think the number of weapons that can consistently one hit archers is actually 3. The double axe, maul, maybe the Znoobhander. Even the Halberd can do it, rarely, but only from behind or blind sided and while using the shitty lunge while the archer is shooting.

    Maul, Zweihander, and the Greatsword are all capable of one hitting an archer with a slash. The zweihander is my most loathed weapon because it can kill with a slash to the arm and any fight against it is nail biting. All of the other melee weapons are just overheads to the head, I believe,

    @Retsnom:

    YES archers should be more challenging and have a higher skill level. Archers by definition are a ranges class.

    And I’m trying to say that there’s a population of archers that operate in much closer quarters that your proposed changes would cause quite a bit of grief for.

    @Retsnom:

    The point about the crosshairs is that of the camera angles and actual hit locations between perspectives. This has two effects, one is it makes it so much easier to just put your cross hair on your target making arching a lower skill level class and two, from the enemy’s point of view, hard to tell if the archer is actually aiming at you. Truly knowing if an archer is aiming at you allows you to dodge arrows better as well as flank an archer without being hit by an arrow launching perpendicular to the bow.

    I wouldn’t exactly call this balancing but more so just ironing out kinks in the game. Granted, fixes like these have been on the backburner for a while but yes, it’d be nice to see this fixed in game.

    @Retsnom:

    In AOC, the camera angle of the bow, made the bow visually block a small portion of the screen. You were forced to aim using the tip of the arrow, like in real life and then adjust windage and elevation accordingly to your moving target. In Chiv that is minimalised to where all you have to do is line up the crosshair.

    Not to be persnickety, but some archers will just tape a dot onto their monitor if they want to be that serious.It’s hard to implement immersive aspects like this in an online multiplayer game where the objective is to win. If this was Skyrim, for example, I’d be all for it.



  • @gregcau:

    Well I suspect javelineer is not your main… Heavy javelin almost kills a vanguard with one torso hit (90 dmg).

    The heavy javelin is my most used weapon, actually. And it’s 95 or so damage so that a shield bash can be a possible follow-up. I’m also talking about the stab, not the throw. It is possible to kill with two hits to the chest, but the weapon comes in at an arc and your quite likely to hit the arm instead during a fight. For the most part you should expect to kill in three hits.

    @Retsnom:

    I think you are missing the point. While those weapons “CAN” theoretically one hit an archer, it is rare and it has to be under the exact perfect circumstances.

    Maul, Zweihander, and the Greatsword are all capable of one hitting an archer with a slash. The zweihander is my most loathed weapon because it can kill with a slash to the arm and any fight against it is nail biting. All of the other melee weapons are just overheads to the head, I believe,

    @Retsnom:

    YES archers should be more challenging and have a higher skill level. Archers by definition are a ranges class.

    And I’m trying to say that there’s a population of archers that operate in much closer quarters that your proposed changes would cause quite a bit of grief for.

    @Retsnom:

    The point about the crosshairs is that of the camera angles and actual hit locations between perspectives.

    I wouldn’t exactly call this balancing but more so just ironing out kinks in the game. Granted, fixes like these have been on the backburner for a while but yes, it’d be nice to see this fixed in game.

    @Retsnom:

    In AOC, the camera angle of the bow, made the bow visually block a small portion of the screen.

    Not to be persnickety, but some archers will just tape a dot onto their monitor if they want to be that serious.It’s hard to implement immersive aspects like this in an online multiplayer game where the objective is to win. If this was Skyrim, for example, I’d be all for it.



  • Putting melee aside for a moment because I could go on all day why the ranged melee weapons need slowing down, here’s what I desperately want to see happen:

    Rework of arrow types, so that:

    • No more Bodkins 2 shotting Knights with Torso only hits
    • No more Broadheads one hitting other archers
    • The difference between ammo types being projectile speed, range and ammo count only

    Bodkins should not be 2 hitting the slowest class without needing to be more careful with their aim, and the whole one shotting other Archers with Bows is ludicrous (without headshots, one hit headshots as in AoC is perfectly fine for Bows), it should be reserved for Crossbows and the heavier Javelins only - weapons that require you to either be closer, or have immobile and long reloads. If this was done, we might actually see weapons other than the Warbow among the competitive Archers.

    But if it was truly up to me, I’d not only do the above, but remove Crosshairs and bring back the more immersive and more fun Age of Chivalry style aiming, it could even make a nice little Archery focused content update which fixes Javelins too to make them more fun as well (more ammo, further range, slower idle to aim, better animations etc).



  • @dilbadil:

    @gregcau:

    Well I suspect javelineer is not your main… Heavy javelin almost kills a vanguard with one torso hit (90 dmg).

    The heavy javelin is my most used weapon, actually. And it’s 95 or so damage so that a shield bash can be a possible follow-up. I’m also talking about the stab, not the throw. It is possible to kill with two hits to the chest, but the weapon comes in at an arc and your quite likely to hit the arm instead during a fight. For the most part you should expect to kill in three hits.

    Well there has to be some balance. The essense of the javelineer is the short range thrown javelin. I would not expect melee to have the same damage.



  • ^ Actually I really like where the javelins are in terms of damage right now. It’s just OP saying that it should be easier to one shot archers is where I get concerned. Like you said, better peripherals would be nice. Better buckler, no repeating reload animation if you get hit, things like that. The numbers themselves are in a nice place, I think.



  • What I would love to see:

    No backstab bonus
    Buckler blocking less view (on all classes)
    beeing able to hold shortbow up for aiming longer than longbow and longbow longer than warbow

    other than that i dont know the class enough, but it should be harder to block after a javelin throw than after a stab otherwise why not simply throw even when in melee?



  • @Martin:

    (more ammo, further range, slower idle to aim, better animations etc).

    I don’t think it would be a good idea to change javelins like this. They’re meant for people who prefer getting closer as an archer and increasing their range and ammo would just make them more like bows.

    If they fixed the bugs related to javelins then it would pretty much leave them working fine without the need for any balance changes. Fix picking up your thrown javelins so they don’t disappear most of the time, make it so that the reload animation doesn’t get interrupted by being hit so you don’t get stunlocked and adjust the viewmodel of the buckler and javelins would be perfect.


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