A way in which feints CAN be balanced



  • You know how you can never actually tell (at least, I can’t) when someone is feinting because it just looks as if they are going to attack you, but cancel at the very last moment? Well, a way to balance this is to somewhat use a slightly different animation for attacks that are going to be cancelled. Like, don’t actually allow the attack to be cancelled mid-swing or anything, just use a whole new bind that utilizes a different animation or a variation of the corresponding animation, be it a swing, stab or an overhead. Basically, if I click LMB, I should swing, and not be able to cancel it. But, if I plan on cancelling, I hold down Q and press LMB, which would use a faster, more exaggerated swing windup animation that may fool a new player to the game, but someone who has been practicing and able to identify this faster swing/stab/overhead (windup only, obviously the attack doesn’t finish) will know when not to parry it. It still doesn’t remove the startle effect that feinting currently has and also doesn’t completely nerf the feinting aspect of the game, just balances it a bit more.



  • I was actually about to suggest something like this.

    But here, I’ll do you a favor and remove the wall of text.

    ––

    Change suggestion:

    1. Instead of making feint a button that cancels an attack, make it a toggle button. During the “feint” mode, as one might call it, play a slightly different animation for the user’s attack input. This would also go well with the upcoming feint changes, because using this feinting input, you would only be able to feint once per combo.

    2. Because of this new feint mechanic being introduced. There needs to be a way to cancel attacks separately, in order to avoid hitting teammates, etc. This would still take stamina to perform, however there would be a 0.5 second down-time where no actions could be performed.



  • I think we should just wait how the announces feint changes turn out to be:

    Not able to feint at the end of windup
    No feint after feint
    something about combos I dont remember?

    Sounds good to me…



  • Not able to feint at the end of windup

    Apparently the second implementation according to SlyGoat is supposed to allow you to feint at the end of the windup, but if you feint in the last few milliseconds, it will give a long cooldown which allows you to parry during but not attack (supposed to be a dilution instead of outright disallowing feints so they don’t make all the feint-to-parriers unhappy). Personally I think this is a huge mistake, and I haven’t even tried it yet, I just know it, I can see exactly what’s going to happen. There are going to be cases where people WANT to feint near the end of the low-cooldown period, but accidentally go a few milliseconds too far, and be screwed up because of it. The game will force a long cooldown on them when they didn’t want it and the only option then available to them will be to parry. It’s a lot more complex for newer players to grasp, and even some existing long timers because the switch from the low-cooldown feint period to the high-cooldown feint period is totally not discernible especially when the windup period varies among all the different weapons. I’m not having a lot of confidence in the proposed solutions so far, but as with everything, it needs to be tested, just my gut telling me I’m going to have issues with it.



  • @Martin:

    Not able to feint at the end of windup

    Apparently the second implementation according to SlyGoat is supposed to allow you to feint at the end of the windup, but if you feint in the last few milliseconds, it will give a long cooldown which allows you to parry during but not attack (supposed to be a dilution instead of outright disallowing feints so they don’t make all the feint-to-parriers unhappy). Personally I think this is a huge mistake, and I haven’t even tried it yet, I just know it, I can see exactly what’s going to happen. There are going to be cases where people WANT to feint near the end of the low-cooldown period, but accidentally go a few milliseconds too far, and be screwed up because of it. The game will force a long cooldown on them when they didn’t want it and the only option then available to them will be to parry. It’s a lot more complex for newer players to grasp, and even some existing long timers because the switch from the low-cooldown feint period to the high-cooldown feint period is totally not discernible especially when the windup period varies among all the different weapons. I’m not having a lot of confidence in the proposed solutions so far, but as with everything, it needs to be tested, just my gut telling me I’m going to have issues with it.

    Considering also moving the attack grunt noise made when you enter release to play when your attack enters the feint-limited portion of windup instead - to give more reliable feedback to both the attacker and the defender.

    With just outright disabling players from feinting in that end window, the same thing will happen that you’re describing - people messing up the timing and feinting too late - except they won’t be able to feint that attack and be forced to attack instead, which will almost always be worse than simply being forced into a recovery during which you can still parry.



  • It wouldn’t be worse, it’s no different than attempting to pull off a late feint and finding yourself in the release phase and going through with the actual attack. In the case you want the game suddenly takes you off the offensive and puts you on the defensive against the user’s wishes (in the cases I’m talking about) if you’re milliseconds out and we all know offense is highly favoured anyway. I’d much rather my attack simply continue if I’m too late so I can combo-feint parry (which I’m not a fan of, especially in this case as I would have technically made one massive balls up if my attack missed, but at least doesn’t throw the user is disarray). I know I’ve made two contradictory points to my own argument here, but ultimately my point is this, people know that currently if you feint too late, the attack will continue, whereas in the revised proposition you are thrown off the offensive and on the defensive instead and the user won’t know it until that cooldown hits, and yes, sound can help alleviate that problem, but whether or not it is effective enough will be determined in testing. Oh, and I suppose I should say I’m more concerned about the faster weapons than the slower ones due to the percentage of the low-cooldown period being higher, something to think about I suppose.



  • @Martin:

    Not able to feint at the end of windup

    Apparently the second implementation according to SlyGoat is supposed to allow you to feint at the end of the windup, but if you feint in the last few milliseconds, it will give a long cooldown which allows you to parry during but not attack (supposed to be a dilution instead of outright disallowing feints so they don’t make all the feint-to-parriers unhappy). Personally I think this is a huge mistake, and I haven’t even tried it yet, I just know it, I can see exactly what’s going to happen. There are going to be cases where people WANT to feint near the end of the low-cooldown period, but accidentally go a few milliseconds too far, and be screwed up because of it. The game will force a long cooldown on them when they didn’t want it and the only option then available to them will be to parry. It’s a lot more complex for newer players to grasp, and even some existing long timers because the switch from the low-cooldown feint period to the high-cooldown feint period is totally not discernible especially when the windup period varies among all the different weapons. I’m not having a lot of confidence in the proposed solutions so far, but as with everything, it needs to be tested, just my gut telling me I’m going to have issues with it.

    Being punished for feinting? Good.



  • Not exactly, more appropriate to say being punished for not knowing the difference between 0.3 and 0.31 of a windup, as an example.

    I’m just of the opinion an outright no feints/cancelling attacks whatsoever in the last % of windup is better for everyone and less complex. It’s just a dial in on the windup to release transition, something everyone is already accustomed too, and of course the difference being a bit easier to react to. I do however think that allowing feint to parries after a feinted attack is must, as we know you will not being able to feint-attack out of a feinted attack in the proposed solution, and something which I completely agree with too.



  • @NoVaLombardia:

    1. Because of this new feint mechanic being introduced. There needs to be a way to cancel attacks separately, in order to avoid hitting teammates, etc. This would still take stamina to perform, however there would be a 0.5 second down-time where no actions could be performed.

    I’m optimistic that the changes SlyGoat was discussing will work well enough to balance feints, but this suggestion gives me an idea (not sure if it’s a great idea, but it’s an idea)

    Maybe we could have a separate bindable action called “Cancel Attack” or something, that allows us to cancel attacks during windup without using or requiring any stamina, but which puts us into a cooldown state for around 2 or 3 seconds in which we cannot do anything but move (not even parry/block).

    Would be good for cancelling additional queued attacks after our opponent has been killed and no other enemies are nearby, especially when allies are nearby who we don’t want to hit, without wasting stamina. Would also help with the weirdness of one-handed weapons costing more stamina to cancel an attack that isn’t going to hit anything than it costs to swing at thin air like a madman.

    The 2 or 3 seconds of no attacking/parrying/blocking would make sure you couldn’t abuse it to gain the upper hand in a fight. Maybe make the exhausted sound play when it’s used, so that enemies know you’re vulnerable to attack.



  • This is a very interesting suggestion, actually. I like it a lot. Although I also think it’s unlikely to be implemented because producing new animations for all the weapons (not to mention each style of attack for each weapon) just doesn’t seem to be feasible. Maybe there’s an easy way to change the animations though, in that case it would be awesome.



  • @The:

    This is a very interesting suggestion, actually. I like it a lot. Although I also think it’s unlikely to be implemented because producing new animations for all the weapons (not to mention each style of attack for each weapon) just doesn’t seem to be feasible. Maybe there’s an easy way to change the animations though, in that case it would be awesome.

    What I would have in mind for the animations is just a much faster version of each windup, say 4x faster. This would startle the opponent (as feints should) rather than put them under pressure wondering when the person is actually going to feint; mid windup? The start of the windup? The very last second? There’s no real way to know unless there is a way to identify someone who is about to feint their attack.


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