The Current Problem With Archers



  • Chivalry: Medieval Warfare… A game with a semi-revolutionary melee combat system, viseral combat and a high skill ceiling! If you are good enough you could chop down waves and waves upon waves of enemy forces. The feeling of badassery overloads you, and you feel like you were one of the Spartans holding the line during the Battle of Thermopyle 480 BC. You realize that this game has achieved something special, something no other game has, you dance through the enemy swings singe handely slaughtering waves upon waves of enemy forces, the chat is being filled with: “omfg this gaime is broken cuz u cant block” or “blok dont do shit”. You feel the urge to respond with “Actually, you just need to aim at the tip of the enemies weapon and it should all be fine.” You have already planned out a counter-response, saying: “Well, you are level 0. I am level 35, you have played the game for 40 minutes, I have played the game for over 357 hours. I am pretty sure that I know the game just a tad better then what you do.” But you resist the urge. Because you have soon reached The Agathian Stuart King Feydrid Kearn. Your goal. And epic battle is about to ensue. Your mind is focused. Your body is ready. All of The Worlds problems drain down from you, you feel as if a great weight has been lifted from your shoulder. The World is at your command. You see the chance, you take it. Your arm rises high, your Norse Sword held firmly in your grip. Stuart King Feydrid Kearn sees it, though his parry is low… Soon you will feel the tremors of your Norse Sword traveling through his flesh, soon you sha… BOOM HEADSHOT HAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHA YOU SUCK. The frustration in you rise. You look at the kill feed. A Heavy Crossbow has fired at your character, and it hit your characters head. You never saw him. You never heard him fire. You never saw his bolt. You never heard his bolt traveling through the air. You are fueled with rage, yet you come to your sense and you just write: “Archers… Why are they even in this game!?”. The response is quick: “dud go pley somthing els if u dont liek chiv”. You try to argue with them: “Well, I do like the game, it is just that certain aspects of it are bad. I complain because I do like it. I want it to become better.” Yet, your words fall on a deaf ear. Someone says “dud lets kik this whiner.” “how do u kickkc”. Another I’ll spirited player answers “i can kick him for you”.

    A kick was iniated by Xxx22sniperXxxXfuckign999666snipezzz666 agaisnt Hejligan. Press Insert to say Ye. Press Delete to say Nay.

    0% Team Damage.
    0 Seconds Idle.
    Hejligan:
    56% YES.
    44% NO.

    Well that was a rather lengthy introduction… Anyway. The main selling point of Chivalry: Medieval Warfare is its melee combat system. It is the reason why the majority has bought it. Yet, there is something that constantly interrupts your melee fights, something that makes you die randomly, something that is hard to dodge even if you are a Man-At-Arms and they are standing perfectly in front of you (I am talking about the angle by the way, not the range). Archers are blatantly breaking the flow of the game without really adding anything to it. Archery is dull, it does not stand out like the rest of the game in terms of quality. Yet it has such a great effect on your gameplay. I am not telling you to remove Archers from the game entirely, but I am strongly suggesting that you should nerf them.

    Accuracy: This is currently one of the main problems of the Archers. The weapons are pinpoint accurate. This greatly encourages sniping players locked in melee combat, one of the times if not the time when players are most vulnerable. Backstabbing is a different matter entirely, you can often hear the backstabber coming even if you don’t spot him, and you can at least defend yourself effectively. It also encourages sniping in general, which is not something good in a game based on melee combat. Also, a bit more projectile drop would be nice, therefore decreasing the ridiculous range that they currently have.

    Projectile Travel Speed: In a skill based game, the ability to defend yourself is crucial. Projectiles currently just travels too fast. It is nearly impossible to notice an incoming arrow in time if it is not being fired from someone who is right infront of you, and even if you see someone fire at you, it is often way too hard to dodge it, therefore, on many classes and equipment combinations, it is nearly impossible to defend yourself against an archer that is firing at you. The projectile speed also makes it way too easy to aim with your ranged weapon, therefore, encouraging sniping, something you don’t want in a game like Chivalry: Medieval Warfare.

    Damage: This is also quite an important issue. If ranged weapons didn’t do such a large amount of damage, the problems above would probably not be as problematic. Archers already has a very easy time aiming, and their range is huge for being a game based around melee combat, so why do they have to do so much damage? Getting sniped while locked in a melee fight would not be such a problem, if it was not for the fact that an Archer do SO. MUCH. DAMAGE, and may I remind you that you can’t defend yourself against Archers while in melee combat because you can neither see them nor hear them, and their projectile speed is ridiculous! Sure, there are ranged weapons that do low amounts of damage, but may I then remind you that pretty much NOBODY uses them. The Shortbow for example, The Shortbow is not underpowered, it is just that pretty much the rest of the ranged weapons are overpowered.

    Projectile Sound And Firing Sound: Sure, this is not a major issue, but it would most certainly help if you could actually hear an incoming arrow (I know that you “can” hear a projectile at the moment, but the sound is extremely low), and perhaps at least hear some low sound from enemy Archers firing in the distance.

    So that is what I think about Archers, currently they take away from the game, because they are basically snipers with sniper rifles in a melee combat game. It is not about how high on the scoreboard the Archer are, it is about how they interrupt the flow of the game. Mount and Blade has it pretty balanced I think, so copying ideas from that game would not be too bad.

    Chivalry: Medieval Warfare is primarily about this: :fenc:. And only secondarily about this: :archb:.



  • I consider myself quite a good archer, but sometimes I miss 12 arrows in a row because they’re to slow or because people move half a meter. Then again I do play with the warbow and the arrows drops a bit more than they do with the crossbows. Not only that, but it takes 2-3 hits to take down a knight which is close to impossible to manage, You might hit twice and then your teammate gets the last hit, or the knight is close enough and feints once and manages to onehit you.

    Well off to the scoreboard (which you said doesn’t matter): How often do you see an archer get in the top 5 during a game? well, sometimes the javelineers manage to get up there, sometimes a skilled bowman does. Crossbowmen might prevail sometimes as well. But most of the time you see a knight or a vanguard running around LMBspamming or something similar. Most archers ends up at the bottom with like 5 kills and 6 deaths, meanwhile the better ones might manage to get around 15-20 kills during around and between 3-15 deaths. Compare that to the melee classes with 10-60 kills depending on their amount of time put into the game, Sure I’ve seen archers get higher score than everyone else, but it’s usually only one or two of them that manage to do so. Being an archer is not as easy as you may think it is.

    Almost forgot the sniping part (well I did but I’ll edit it in :I)
    When I play with the bow I’m probably as close to the enemies as the next guy, it’s easier to land a hit and you have to be ready to switch to your secondary weapon which brings a bit more excitement into the game.

    Side-Note: I do hate crossbowmen as all they do is show their face for 2 secs then they run and hide, which they repeat over and over. There are exceptions obviously.



  • Nowadays I am usually running around with a shield which deflects 60% of the arrows. Even if I don’t see an archer I will zig-zag when moving from one place to another.

    If I am in combat and the archer is not too far I place my opponent between myself and the archer. Regardless I keep moving with my fancy footwork to avoid getting hit.

    Sure a very good archer can be painful, but overall it does not really bother me. If I go archer, which I do on certain objectives my kills are not very high.

    Ultimately if archers really offend you go to an archer restricted or free server.



  • Sorry but the developers said that archers belong in the game because it’s realistic and for no other reasons. Everyone knows realism should take priority over childish things like fun or balance in a video game.



  • They gave server operators the tools to limit or remove archers. Server operators for the most part haven’t done that. So who’s fault is that?
    Maybe you should petition TBS for a few Official class limited servers. They already said that wouldn’t happen but maybe they’ll change their mind.



  • Archers are a necessary evil for gameplay and map balance reasons.



  • @David:

    Sorry but the developers said that archers belong in the game because it’s realistic and for no other reasons. Everyone knows realism should take priority over childish things like fun or balance in a video game.

    I know… I read that post, and it frustrated me greatly.

    The funny part is, if they want it to be realistic, then decrease the damage of bows and decrease the projectile speed of ranged weapons in general! Bolts and arrows are not that fast in real life!



  • A lone archer? No big deal. just sprint of sneak around him and kill him no big deal.

    An archer with an ass-kissing MAA/Knight/VG? Try to take out the archer first or carefully move around such that the enemy is blocking the archer’s path.

    A wall of archers? Well buddy, you’re fucked unless you get your team involved :lol:



  • @Event:

    A lone archer? No big deal. just sprint of sneak around him and kill him no big deal.

    An archer with an ass-kissing MAA/Knight/VG? Try to take out the archer first or carefully move around such that the enemy is blocking the archer’s path.

    A wall of archers? Well buddy, you’re fucked unless you get your team involved :lol:

    A lone Heavy Crossbowman is quite a big deal.



  • @Hejligan:

    @Event:

    A lone archer? No big deal. just sprint of sneak around him and kill him no big deal.

    An archer with an ass-kissing MAA/Knight/VG? Try to take out the archer first or carefully move around such that the enemy is blocking the archer’s path.

    A wall of archers? Well buddy, you’re fucked unless you get your team involved :lol:

    A lone Heavy Crossbowman is quite a big deal.

    yeah their ability to ohk almost anything is a bit of a deal but its not too hard to catch them by surprise on certain maps



  • @Event:

    @Hejligan:

    @Event Horizon:

    A lone archer? No big deal. just sprint of sneak around him and kill him no big deal.

    An archer with an ass-kissing MAA/Knight/VG? Try to take out the archer first or carefully move around such that the enemy is blocking the archer’s path.

    A wall of archers? Well buddy, you’re fucked unless you get your team involved :lol:

    A lone Heavy Crossbowman is quite a big deal.

    yeah their ability to ohk almost anything is a bit of a deal but its not too hard to catch them by surprise on certain maps

    The amount of times they will snipe you is not equal to the amount of times that you will catch them by surprise.



  • @Hejligan:

    they are basically snipers with sniper rifles in a melee combat game. It is not about how high on the scoreboard the Archer are, it is about how they interrupt the flow of the game.

    Chivalry: Medieval Warfare is primarily about this: :fenc:. And only secondarily about this: :archb:.

    +1. couldn’t agree more. had my first go on a sniper free server last night and the game played so much better without them.



  • @veganman:

    @Hejligan:

    they are basically snipers with sniper rifles in a melee combat game. It is not about how high on the scoreboard the Archer are, it is about how they interrupt the flow of the game.

    Chivalry: Medieval Warfare is primarily about this: :fenc:. And only secondarily about this: :archb:.

    +1. couldn’t agree more. had my first go on a sniper free server last night and the game played so much better without them.

    Indeed, the concept of putting in sniper rifles and non-sniper rifles in a melee combat game is laughable silly. Though, as long as their models are of bows and crossbows, they has to be balanced! Right!? No? Well, tell that to the developers and the defenders of archers.



  • That would all be very relevant if we were discussing a melee combat game.



  • @dudeface:

    That would all be very relevant if we were discussing a melee combat game.

    Are you in all honestly saying that Chivalry: Medieval Warfare is not based around melee combat!? It is advertised around its melee combat. 3 out of 4 classes are based on melee combat! One of the main reasons for its praised for its melee combat. The reason most people buy it is because of its melee combat. In fact, in most reviews and review like works, they criticize the Archery as being nothing more than an distraction in comparison to the rest of the game.



  • @dudeface:

    That would all be very relevant if we were discussing a melee combat game.

    http://i.imgur.com/5VZILlw.jpg

    8-)



  • @David:

    http://i.imgur.com/5VZILlw.jpg

    8-)

    Nice.

    Honestly my main issue is how ramped up ranged damage is to melee damage.
    What I mean is, if you think about the ratio Realistic Damage : Game Damage for all weapons you find that all the melee weapons are fairly consistent with one another, and similarly the ranged weapons (archer primaries, throwing axes and throwing knives) are fairly consistent with one another, yet if you compare melee weapons and ranged weapons there’s a fairly significant difference.

    Even if we take ignore the doubled headshot bonus projectiles get and just focus on a typical body shot, why does an arrow from a Warbow hitting an archer in the arm kill, while a Double Axe overhead to an Archer’s arm does not?
    One should be a recoverable injury while the other should leave you with one arm bleeding to death on the ground.

    The ranged weapons are fairly heavily buffed in damage compared to the melee weapons, presumably to make up for some kind of misconception that it’s extremely difficult to land hits and thus there need to be plenty of one-hit-kills and two-hit-kills, even without having to hit the head.

    Archer is by far my least played class, yet I find it easier to top the scoreboards in team objective with Archer than I do with Man At Arms, my main class.
    Sniping enemies, especially other archers, is not difficult, and even if they get in close Archers are not that weak in melee. The secondaries are great for defending yourself, especially since as an archer you know the enemy is going to be the aggressor (they ran all the way over just to deal with you, of course they’re going to have a predictable aggressive fighting style towards you) and it’s not hard to counter this predictable behaviour.

    It is a very easy class to play well after a short amount of practice… much, much less practice than is required to learn basic competence in melee combat.
    It doesn’t take a genius to see why:
    Melee combat is deep and complex, difficult to learn and even more difficult to master.
    Ranged combat just comes down to paying attention, aiming properly and avoiding getting shot yourself. It’s difficult to find much depth other than “what’s the best way to reload/pull back on the bow if another archer is trying to shoot me?” which doesn’t take long to figure out.

    Saying Archer is a hard class because it’s difficult to aim is like saying Vanguard is a hard class because you don’t know when you’re supposed to swing or which direction you’re meant to parry or how to perform a combo. Learn the basic combat mechanics and it is very far from difficult.



  • Huh. I hadn’t seen that quote before.

    I guess we’ll have to get them to remove archers now. Somebody call a lawyer. We have the makings of a class action lawsuit here.



  • It’s not just the quote. Archers contradict a lot of things said on that page when they’re describing the game.



  • Get archers out of duels please.


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