Vanguard Two handed Sword Underpowered?



  • Title says it all. It doesn’t do that much damage yet is Terribly slow. It’s probably the slowest weapon in the game, a single bad swing, and the enemy face hug you to death.

    Face Hugging is terribly troublesome, the enemy will just stick to the vanguard and spam attack while running around : making it impossible to land a single kick. And even if you manage to land a kick and knock back your opponent, your weapon is so slow that the enemy has the time to come back at you and finish you off.

    A small speed boost for the sword is definitively needed.

    It also seems all the great sword stats are inferior to the bardiche stats : the bardiche has more reach, more speed, and more attack.
    And most of the time, a vanguard don’t attack at close range with his sword, so the close range advantage of the greatsword over the bardiche is useless.



  • yeah You just look more like a medieval knight, other than the 2 handed sword sucks. The only thing better about the sword is the charge that is more like a swing while the Barbiche is just a trust.
    Barbiche 8/10 2h sword 5/10.



  • The two handed sword is all about combos. You either miss your first attack on purpose to lure them into approaching and then hit them with an overhead, or you lead with a stab since the stab is relatively quick and combo into a slash or overhead.

    If you want a faster twohander, the Claymore should be properly unlockable next week. It’s quite a bit faster but at the same time lower damage and shorter.

    The greatsword is by no means the slowest weapon in the game, however. The Bardiche and Double-Axe are both slower, as well as some other weapons which are still locked. And I’ve no idea where you get that it doesn’t do that much damage - it has a 90 damage overhead, which is only 10 less than the significantly slower Bardiche, and a much stronger stab than the Bardiche. It also has the highest damage sprint attack of any Vanguard weapon except for the Halberd, while also covering a very wide area instead of being a single stab, making it an amazing crowd clearer.

    I’d suggest you attempt to get used to comboing with the greatsword before you suggest it get any significant buffs, because that’s where its true strength lies IMO. I don’t think any other weapon combos its attacks together more quickly.



  • @SlyGoat:

    The greatsword is by no means the slowest weapon in the game, however. The Bardiche and Double-Axe are both slower, as well as some other weapons which are still locked. And I’ve no idea where you get that it doesn’t do that much damage - it has a 90 damage overhead, which is only 10 less than the significantly slower Bardiche, and a much stronger stab than the Bardiche. It also has the highest damage sprint attack of any Vanguard weapon except for the Halberd, while also covering a very wide area instead of being a single stab, making it an amazing crowd clearer.

    False. We made some extensive testing, and the bardiche was the faster weapon by a good margin.
    The Bardiche makes more swing damage and overhead damage. (and look at the stats, they confirm this).

    -Bardiche : Better reach, faster speed, stronger swing, stronger overhead.
    -Sword : stronger thrust.
    Bardiche> Sword.

    You can also combo with the bardiche, and thanks the the stronger swing + faster speed it’s even better than the sword in combo.

    Overall, sword needs an obvious boost. It’s excruciatingly slow, it needs a good boost. And only 3 unlocks are slower, one of them being another two handed sword for the vanguard :3.



  • In my opinion all 2-handers needs a buff, they are slow, large, and because of that its very easy to block them. And 1-handed mace/hammer/hatchet needs a nerf, by the same reason - they are very hard to block.



  • @SlyGoat:

    The two handed sword is all about combos. You either miss your first attack on purpose to lure them into approaching and then hit them with an overhead, or you lead with a stab since the stab is relatively quick and combo into a slash or overhead.

    If you want a faster twohander, the Claymore should be properly unlockable next week. It’s quite a bit faster but at the same time lower damage and shorter.

    The greatsword is by no means the slowest weapon in the game, however. The Bardiche and Double-Axe are both slower, as well as some other weapons which are still locked. And I’ve no idea where you get that it doesn’t do that much damage - it has a 90 damage overhead, which is only 10 less than the significantly slower Bardiche, and a much stronger stab than the Bardiche. It also has the highest damage sprint attack of any Vanguard weapon except for the Halberd, while also covering a very wide area instead of being a single stab, making it an amazing crowd clearer.

    I’d suggest you attempt to get used to comboing with the greatsword before you suggest it get any significant buffs, because that’s where its true strength lies IMO. I don’t think any other weapon combos its attacks together more quickly.

    The part about combos - I’ve spent days trying to get people with combos from the two-handed sword. It just doesn’t work against someone with a one-hander who knows how the game works, because the sword is too slow and obvious. I’ve dueled a lot and tried to work with it, and I could definitely win with it against any opponent but only by abusing the stab. I can beat others by using combos with one-handed weapons and with the bardiche (very hard but it could work) but with the sword it just doesn’t work. I believe you if you say the sword is faster than the bardiche, but this is what I have noticed from testing in the game. No-one was foolish enough to let the slow follow-up swing hit them, no matter how I kept my distance or tried to lure them. Or maybe it is because the attacks are too obvious in comparison to other weapons.

    In regards to Djihad’s post (who ninja’d me :P) - In dueling I would agree two-handed weapons need a buff, but in chaotic combat they take less hits to take people out and speeding them up too much could cause them to become the ultimate spammer’s backstabbing weapon.
    Right now you have a disadvantage as soon as a decent Man At Arms faces you 1 on 1, and I do consider that a flaw. You have to get hits in on the MAA, for every mistake he makes you can get a hit in, but as soon as you make a mistake he can face-hug you and you are most likely to end up dead. That’s why I would consider for instance to give them more speed but less damage.



  • @D.J.I.H.A.D:

    In my opinion all 2-handers needs a buff, they are slow, large, and because of that its very easy to block them. And 1-handed mace/hammer/hatchet needs a nerf, by the same reason - they are very hard to block.

    I find this a very tough issue. I almost exclusively use onehanded weapons and I’d say you’re probably right - in duels (I don’t think onehanded weapons are too hard to defend against though, just 2h ones too easy). I find that MaA (not onehanded weapons in general but very specifically MaA) seems to give you far more options in a one on one fight than any other class, and I sometimes think that MaA is an objectively better class for duels than any other (though I’m not sure about that, I still get beaten by other classes but I’m just not especially good; I just feel that MaA has most potential). At the same time, many players feel that the MaA is very difficult to play in any other situation than a duel. The lower range and damage output of their weapons make them hard to play in group fights and they’re extremely susceptible to archers when they’re unaware of them.

    So the question it boils down to is: what game mode is this game balanced for? If the developers want it to be perfectly balanced for dueling, then perhaps 2h’s in general may eventually need some tinkering with. But most players already feel that the MaA is a bit weak on the battlefield. He has far less margin for error so perhaps it’s justified that he gets some extra options. If the game is supposed to be balanced mainly for the Team Objective mode, then I don’t think 2h’s need to be any stronger or 1h’s any weaker.

    I would personally very much like it if the class balancing was done with dueling in mind: every class/weapon combo should have a roughly equal chance against any other. Because I love dueling. But it’s not my game and I think it’s unlikely that dueling will be the developers’ primary concern.



  • @akarnir:

    False. We made some extensive testing, and the bardiche was the faster weapon by a good margin.
    The Bardiche makes more swing damage and overhead damage. (and look at the stats, they confirm this).

    -Bardiche : Better reach, faster speed, stronger swing, stronger overhead.
    -Sword : stronger thrust.
    Bardiche> Sword.

    You can also combo with the bardiche, and thanks the the stronger swing + faster speed it’s even better than the sword in combo.

    Overall, sword needs an obvious boost. It’s excruciatingly slow, it needs a good boost. And only 3 unlocks are slower, one of them being another two handed sword for the vanguard :3.

    The bardiche is faster to make a single attack, but the sword definitely transitions into a combo faster. To follow through with an overhead is faster with the bardiche, but do a slash -> overhead -> stab combo takes relatively the same total amount of time with both weapons. The premier combo of the greatsword however is stab->swing; the bardiche and greatsword have the same swing damage (80) and the greatsword has far superior stab damage, so the greatsword preforms this combo better. Only the slow and predictable overhead is better on the bardiche.

    But let’s be real here for a second. Slow weapons suck right now in general. The only thing you can realistically do with either the bardiche or the greatsword (or a double axe or longsword for that matter) is spam stab. Greatsword kills vanguard in 2 hits with stab, no headshots required. Bardiche requires 3 stabs with at least one headshot to kill a vanguard with the stab. Even with the stronger overhead, you cannot oneshot a vanguard with it, so best case scenario the bardiche has a 2 hit kill against a vanguard with incredibly slow attacks whereas the greatsword does it with relatively fast pokes. It takes one overhead to kill a man-at-arms with either weapon, but if you don’t feel like risking such a slow attack, again it’s just two stabs to the body with the greatsword while the bardiche takes two headshots or three body hits.

    The only situation where I’d say the bardiche has a strong advantage is against knights because their armor modifiers are silly. Neither one is a fantastic weapon, but that’s more because of the inherent issues with fast weapons vs. slow weapons than anything specific to the greatsword. If you want a really good twohander wait for the claymore; but be prepared to do nothing but stab, because the claymore’s stab is even higher damage than the greatsword’s, and faster. Again, nothing about the weapon specifically, just questionable game mechanics making stabs very strong.



  • @SlyGoat:

    The bardiche is faster to make a single attack, but the sword definitely transitions into a combo faster. To follow through with an overhead is faster with the bardiche, but do a slash -> overhead -> stab combo takes relatively the same total amount of time with both weapons. The premier combo of the greatsword however is stab->swing; the bardiche and greatsword have the same swing damage (80) and the greatsword has far superior stab damage, so the greatsword preforms this combo better. Only the slow and predictable overhead is better on the bardiche.

    But let’s be real here for a second. Slow weapons suck right now in general. The only thing you can realistically do with either the bardiche or the greatsword (or a double axe or longsword for that matter) is spam stab. Greatsword kills vanguard in 2 hits with stab, no headshots required. Bardiche requires 3 stabs with at least one headshot to kill a vanguard with the stab. Even with the stronger overhead, you cannot oneshot a vanguard with it, so best case scenario the bardiche has a 2 hit kill against a vanguard with incredibly slow attacks whereas the greatsword does it with relatively fast pokes. It takes one overhead to kill a man-at-arms with either weapon, but if you don’t feel like risking such a slow attack, again it’s just two stabs to the body with the greatsword while the bardiche takes two headshots or three body hits.

    The only situation where I’d say the bardiche has a strong advantage is against knights because their armor modifiers are silly. Neither one is a fantastic weapon, but that’s more because of the inherent issues with fast weapons vs. slow weapons than anything specific to the greatsword. If you want a really good twohander wait for the claymore; but be prepared to do nothing but stab, because the claymore’s stab is even higher damage than the greatsword’s, and faster. Again, nothing about the weapon specifically, just questionable game mechanics making stabs very strong.

    I can’t find a way to contradict what you wrote because it’s true to a great extend.
    Yet in most fight I made with a friend, the bardiche user often has the upper hand over the great sword (we were a group of 3 and swapped weapons alternatively).
    But I won’t discuss Bardiche vs great sword further.

    The main issue, that you pointed out, is the fact that slow weapons kind of sucks. I’m going to quote what you said because it sums it up :

    But let’s be real here for a second. Slow weapons suck right now in general. The only thing you can realistically do with either the bardiche or the greatsword (or a double axe or longsword for that matter) is spam stab. Greatsword kills vanguard in 2 hits with stab, no headshots required. Bardiche requires 3 stabs with at least one headshot to kill a vanguard with the stab.

    Also
    @Kwal:

    The part about combos - I’ve spent days trying to get people with combos from the two-handed sword. It just doesn’t work against someone with a one-hander who knows how the game works, because the sword is too slow and obvious. I’ve dueled a lot and tried to work with it, and I could definitely win with it against any opponent but only by abusing the stab. I can beat others by using combos with one-handed weapons and with the bardiche (very hard but it could work) but with the sword it just doesn’t work. I believe you if you say the sword is faster than the bardiche, but this is what I have noticed from testing in the game. No-one was foolish enough to let the slow follow-up swing hit them, no matter how I kept my distance or tried to lure them. Or maybe it is because the attacks are too obvious in comparison to other weapons.
    […]
    Right now you have a disadvantage as soon as a decent Man At Arms faces you 1 on 1, and I do consider that a flaw. You have to get hits in on the MAA, for every mistake he makes you can get a hit in, but as soon as you make a mistake he can face-hug you and you are most likely to end up dead. That’s why I would consider for instance to give them more speed but less damage.

    +1, that is exactly what I think.



  • The main issue here, in my humble opinion, is that people are really missing the point of these heavy weapons all together. Not every weapon is a great duel weapon and for some odd reason this duel-elitism persists in these kinds of games :? I know it’s cool looking and all and for some people it’s the “ultimate skill test” but my point is that these weapons (and classes to some extend) aren’t meant for 1 vs. 1 combat. Simply as that.

    A heavy double axe is awesome weapon to have when you can surprise your enemy from the side or from behind. Same goes for spear and long awlpikes in general: It’s not really a 1vs.1 weapon now is it? ;) It’s for teamplay, keeping your opponents at bay, maybe strike your enemy from the side with it.

    This game and it’s gamemodes are for teamplay purposes until they’ll create a Duel -mode. Before that happens, learn to feint, duck and use your skill to kill your opponent, not to mention teamplay! I for one am a anti-duelist and sometimes I really don’t like when people complain about not giving the last guy a chance to duel OR when there’s 6-10 guys in one server and half of the people insist that it’s just going to be 1vs1 duels (thing that is already happening on some EU servers, sad but true).

    PS. Just so you know, I really do suck in duels since I’m a non-heavy, non-melee unit in these games. Last night I think I did 0/14, didn’t get a single kill in within two maps or so (People agreed that it’s just going to be 1vs1 duels on that server). Then the map changed to Arena and I really perked up, telling myself that I have to learn to duel these guys. I ducked, I feinted, did all these clever things… Then sure enough it was almost 14/0 8-)



  • @sadnhappy, there is a difference between more difficult and impossible. I don’t have anything against the fact that its more difficult to win as a vanguard in a 1vs1 fight. I have something against the fact that it’s impossible to win a 1vs1 fight as a vanguard when figthing people that knows how to play.
    Of course, you can still own some noob Men at Arm as a vanguard, but as soon as you encounter an experienced man at arm, you are done, whatever the amount of skills you have.

    It’s like fighting with a toothpick : whatever the amount of skills you have with this toothpick, if you fight someone with a katana, you will loose.

    And that’s where it’s silly, because all you are left to do as a vanguard (spear not included) is to spam sing/thrust in general melee, as most people here have pointed out.



  • @akarnir:

    but as soon as you encounter an experienced man at arm, you are done, whatever the amount of skills you have.

    Thats…extremely questionable.



  • @Logen:

    @akarnir:

    but as soon as you encounter an experienced man at arm, you are done, whatever the amount of skills you have.

    Thats…extremely questionable.

    Can you provide a more contructive answer. Because right now there is a general consensus that bardiche and greatsword sucks, and that vanguards are extremely vulnerable to facehugging. Which means that has soon as you encounter someone who knows how to facehug properly, you are done.



  • @sadnhappy:

    The main issue here, in my humble opinion, is that people are really missing the point of these heavy weapons all together. Not every weapon is a great duel weapon and for some odd reason this duel-elitism persists in these kinds of games :? I know it’s cool looking and all and for some people it’s the “ultimate skill test” but my point is that these weapons (and classes to some extend) aren’t meant for 1 vs. 1 combat. Simply as that.

    A heavy double axe is awesome weapon to have when you can surprise your enemy from the side or from behind. Same goes for spear and long awlpikes in general: It’s not really a 1vs.1 weapon now is it? ;) It’s for teamplay, keeping your opponents at bay, maybe strike your enemy from the side with it.

    This game and it’s gamemodes are for teamplay purposes until they’ll create a Duel -mode. Before that happens, learn to feint, duck and use your skill to kill your opponent, not to mention teamplay! I for one am a anti-duelist and sometimes I really don’t like when people complain about not giving the last guy a chance to duel OR when there’s 6-10 guys in one server and half of the people insist that it’s just going to be 1vs1 duels (thing that is already happening on some EU servers, sad but true).

    PS. Just so you know, I really do suck in duels since I’m a non-heavy, non-melee unit in these games. Last night I think I did 0/14, didn’t get a single kill in within two maps or so (People agreed that it’s just going to be 1vs1 duels on that server). Then the map changed to Arena and I really perked up, telling myself that I have to learn to duel these guys. I ducked, I feinted, did all these clever things… Then sure enough it was almost 14/0 8-)

    I can agree with most of what you said (except, of course, I love dueling and happily turn FFA servers into duel servers when I can), but the question is: do we really want weapons to be this situational? I agree that that’s the case now: the double axe is rather shitty in a duel (although IF you make a mistake against it as a MaA you’re done) but it’s balanced atm because it’s the best weapon in the game if you can catch your opponent by surprise. But is this a good kind of balance? I’m really not so sure. Even when not dueling, I like the idea that individuals can be self-reliant.

    If there’s one thing the developers have stressed during development, it’s that you have to overcome your opponent in order to beat him: the only path to victory is greater skill. So I expect that, if I beat an opponent, I did so because I’m better at the game than him (or got lucky, whatever :P), and not because my class happens to be more viable for one on one combat. While I realise this can never be achieved perfectly, I do think that that promise implies that most class/weapon combo’s need to have some viability in duels. I’m ok with it if some weapons are more support oriented and aren’t very viable in duels (such as the thrusting spear in theory; in practice it’s probably the best dueling weapon available to the vanguard, perhaps even the best VG weapon period), but when we’re talking about entire classes, that’s not ok imho.



  • I question the idea that big slow weapons are better for taking enemies by surprise, unless you can kill them in one hit. Currently one hit kills are mostly confined to Men-at-Arms. You may start the fight with a free hit, but you still have to hit them again with your big slow weapon. I’d also call into question their being better in a big clash than smaller weapons. Presumably you’re thinking because they have huge sweeping attacks, you can hit more enemies; but what’s more likely to happen is you’ll hit several allies, maybe an enemy, and then your attack will be blocked. So you’ll do more damage to your own team if you just run in swinging. Meanwhile a knight with a warhammer or mace can easily focus down single enemies with overheads and overwhelm opponents one at a time with quick and hard to block attacks.



  • I guess really the key things a weapon can bring to bear are damage, length, and speed.

    High damage is supposed to cause more stamina impact on a block I believe. Though really the damage done ultimately comes down to how many hits does it take to kill a person. I don’t know to the extent that the stamina damage is going to help out too much though, as I think the speed and weapon length offer more advantages.

    I think the high damage 1h fast weapons are ultimately problematic, the MAA’s advantage should come from somewhere else. I guess normally a 2h axe could block the MAA, kick him away, then start an overhead. That is probably enough time even if the MAA is rushing you to cross that interrupt threshold so you would blast them even if they hit you.

    From the 3 swords in alpha, I did feel the great sword had the nicest stats, though I did end up using the claymore (which is the faster lower damage one) a lot.

    Still those fast 1h weapons really prompt you to almost have to use thrust 100% of the time.

    Maybe there should be push back on a weapon block relative to the damage it inflicts in addition to the stamina drain.

    Not really sure, I still have a lot to learn about the game to understand whats balanced or fun. I think the sooner people can start competing with one another for ‘srs’ is when you can start having a better picture about balance.



  • This is really odd… I got the opposite reaction to big 2 handed weapons. they seem to dominate the battles to me, I really don’t think they need a buff, it is usually someone flailing there massive weapons around who get the most kills… I’ve tested this myself abit, 99 % of the time I am an archer or man at arms, and i’m pretty good at it too, but one time just to test out a heavy weapon because they seem so powerful I tried a knight with a big axe, and I was beheading people left and right with very little skill, I was just flailing and swinging at people and off went their heads… So I don’t agree that 2 handers need a buff… I haven’t tried the greatsword however maybe that does, but they usually seem fine in a large group battle… When it comes down to a duel just take out your secondary that is what it is there for…



  • Try the 1h hammer. You will do the same but much faster. Having a big sword worth nothing in this game. 1hands do same damage but faster. And of course, most of the time, hitting someone don’t interupt him wich mean that the weapon range is kinda useless :/

    Take the hammer and just rush in hitting everywhere like a mad man. You will decapitate 2-3 guys before beeing killed.



  • @Akheris:

    Try the 1h hammer. You will do the same but much faster. Having a big sword worth nothing in this game. 1hands do same damage but faster. And of course, most of the time, hitting someone don’t interupt him wich mean that the weapon range is kinda useless :/

    Take the hammer and just rush in hitting everywhere like a mad man. You will decapitate 2-3 guys before beeing killed.

    This is true for the 1h hammer, but tbh the hammer feels to strong just like the hatchet did before the nerf…



  • It’s not that hard to duel the one-handers, as long as you manage to keep your distance. But unfortunately, that’s not going to happen most of the time, since the first thing they’ll do is facehug you and keep spamming the attack. Plus the smaller and faster the weapon, the harder its to parry, mace, hammer and - surprisingily - the broad dagger, being number one there - from what I’ve noticed that is. But that’s okay as well. What’s not okay is how easily those same weapons parry the two-hander. I read somewhere that small weapons should take much more stamina to parry a large weapon, but apparently (?!?) it might not be working as intended. Also, since just initiating an attack doesn’t consume stamina (only if you miss), it wouldn’t really matter if they ran out of stamina or not, since they can hit very easily anyway, so maybe it’s really an issue with re-working the stamina mechanics a bit, and also making parrying the large weapons with a smaller one much riskier, forcing the MAA to rely more on dodge.

    One idea would be that small vs. large weapon parrying would have (either / or) a) longer recoil period, b) less than 100% damage mitigation.


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