I can prove with pen and paper…



  • That feinting ruins the game. Can prove it, to anyone, beyond a shadow of a doubt, with 10 minutes time, a pen, and grid paper.

    These are base weapon stats
    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc … TZnc#gid=1

    =––
    http://25.media.tumblr.com/403b79476500 … 1_1280.jpg

    This is the beginning of a series of diagrams i’m making showing a first attack and block attempt by a player against another player.
    This is with zwei, considered a slow and readable weapon.

    It takes about .200-.250s to perceive and respond to a stimulus by clicking your mouse.

    http://www.humanbenchmark.com/tests/reactiontime/
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mental_chronometry

    The way attacking works, its half attacker ping + half defender ping in favor of the attacker. Hits register based on the attackers packet. Two players with 70 ping have a

    .070s difference in favor of the attacker, plus the .2 gives the attacker at 70 ping between .27s and .32s initiative bonus.

    if you look at the weapon speed data, you look at the timing changes allowable by feint, observe the parry window, and interpret this with an understanding of basic human reaction time and latency issues

    You will see that this combat simply does not work with feints. Not even at face value, this is diagramming a one swing exchange where one player wants to block an attack and the other player wants to hit them. The player that wants to block will be hit. Period, he can do nothing about it.

    his alternative is to play like this

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1jrrx089vdI

    Constant attacking. Refusing to be defensive at any point, because a parry can be bypassed at attacker’s will.

    Make your own diagrams. Try to fit the idea of a skill/reaction based game in with the feint mechanic. Tell me if you can.

    Lets not argue anymore. Lets do this black and white, with diagrams.

    Show me why i’m wrong about feinting and why trying to parry a blow isn’t consistently punished. SHOW ME PLEASE.

    (compare bada’s feint BASED fighting with no feint fighting)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tM7QPjZ1wac

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=23LU8OKRB-I

    And there are better no feint fighters than the people in those vids.



  • Congratulations, JCash, you’ve caught up to everyone who already knows that proper feints can’t be reacted to solely from the visual cues the game gives you.

    Maybe we can move on with the discussion now? Or maybe you can stop repeating the same old tired argument over and over and accept that many people are OK with feints, and many people are very good at fighting consistently despite feints, and many people just want to play the damn game and get better without TBS radically changing the rules every month instead of fixing bugs.

    Maybe you are just a troll, and I have fallen for your cleverly constructed ruse, but in the end your arguments about game balance hold no ground with me.



  • Chivalry combat, right now at this very moment, is so influenced by luck and feintspam as to be useless to someone looking for a skillful reaction time/stat knowledge based game.

    viewtopic.php?f=5&t=12801

    If anyone out there sees this thread, let me tell you about chivalry

    If you’re looking for a dueling game, chivalry is not for you
    If you’re looking for a moddable game, chivalry is not yet for you
    If you’re looking for a game with a thriving competitive scene, chivalry is not for you
    If you’re looking for a casual slasher with a variety of weapons and a heavily luck influenced combat system limiting how good you can get - chivalry is for you.

    If you’re looking for a game where your time invested in learning the mechanics and your superior reaction time will allow you to beat less experienced players with worse reaction time - CHIVALRY IS NOT FOR YOU.

    What was i looking for when i bought chiv? What they advertised the game to be.

    http://www.chivalrythegame.com/blog/about-it

    (A competitive multiplayer FPS).

    Chivalry’s combat system was designed from an interesting mix of First-person Shooter, RPG and Fighting genre game mechanics.

    I do not see dice, poker, a guesswork game, mentioned.

    This offers a variety of playstyles from the calm and accurate counter fighter (think Tristan in King Arthur) to the all out berserker that tries to overwhelm his opponents with repeated strikes (think William Wallace from Braveheart).

    This allows ONE style. The style bada is showing in that video. Constant attacking, parrying is punished.

    _TBS, I hope you will fix your game. I truly do. The game you have made is not the game you set out to make. The system you’ve put in has ruined the ability of this game to support skillful combat, and made the fighting system a joke. You came so close to creating the best melee game of all time, your goal, and then veered sharply to the left for no apparent reason.

    I’m not a casual, i’m not out to make anything easier, im out to make it skill based. I’m here to ask for the removal of luck based die roll mechanics. I’m asking you to create the game you initially set out to._



  • @NabsterHax:

    Maybe you are just a troll, and I have fallen for your cleverly constructed ruse, but in the end your arguments about game balance hold no ground with me.

    Oh please, Get Out.



  • They will be tweaking feints in the next update. We just need to wait and see how well that goes. :)



  • @Matti:

    They will be tweaking feints in the next update. We just need to wait and see how well that goes. :)

    Until then, we will still have to constantly listen to the constant negativity spewed from the same people over and over again. And probably, even after the beta starts materializing into something better, they’ll still find something to spew negativity about.



  • @Matti:

    They will be tweaking feints in the next update. We just need to wait and see how well that goes. :)

    My diagram shows the proposed beta feint changes and the alterations to zwei release time actually. The yellow is the delay for a late feint.

    Entire thing is much more clearly attacker side without the delay + window, still clearly attacker side with it.

    The entire exchange, all exchanges really, are taking place at the attacker’s initiative, look at the bada video again. Its about not conceding the ‘aggressive’ frame to the opponent.

    There is no parity, with feinting, between the attacking and defending frames. Indeed, with the ability to feint on six blows, and people dying in 1-4 hits

    this might as well be re named

    No-Chivalry: Feint warfare

    or No-Skill: Luck based Warfare.

    Not sure which is catchier. And they wont even listen to the few intelligent human beings still in this game, that waste their time on the forums trying to improve it.

    Any playstlye other than constant aggression, is valueless. Because of how feint works and how it continues to work (or not work) in the beta.

    If you put in a luck based mechanic, especially one as powerful as an ‘anti parry button’, it changes the orientation of the game. At high level play suddenly everything becomes about the luck based mechanic, WHICH YOU CAN SEE IN BADA’S VIDEO (s)

    Again, i’m not here to argue. I’m here to have someone do some diagrams and show me how the ability to parry is not consistently undermined with feint. Please do.



  • hundereds of posts, over and over again saying the exact same thing, you dont like feints, gees at least my hot girl pics were topic related.



  • @gregcau:

    hundereds of posts, over and over again saying the exact same thing, you dont like feints, gees at least my hot girl pics were topic related.

    I don’t think my posts are saying the exact same thing. Ive participated in dozens of feint related discussions, and now, we’re coming near the end of it. Showtime, the window for the devs to come to their senses and fix their game is closing.

    There are no intelligent pro feint arguments. Not a single one from a single human being.

    The people advocating for

    not having feint changes are generally in clans - their main drive is improving working with their clannies and, as they’re fairly good now, how dare the boat be rocked.

    Who wants feint nerfd? Every intelligent player that is not a member of a clan.

    We have one side, the anti feint side, using facts. Using diagrams. Using comparisons to the melee systems of other games, using youtube videos, using logic.

    And then we have the pro feint side saying ‘leave the game how it is, random guesswork is fine, how dare this be made skill based? I should be able to bypass any parry by pressing q! I’m the best Q presser in the world!’

    Or even ‘i can read feints’ which, no one has yet to demonstrate. But, was a quite common assertion on this forum, not even a long time ago. Thankfully those idiots, or trolls, were beaten down.

    Idk, which side seems more reasonable? That was rhetorical.

    I’ll say this again, new/bad players do not care about feints, because they’re dying to other things. Misjudging range, missing the timing on a block, MUCH more often than they die due to feints. They also don’t understand the numbers under the system, or how success in that situation was in principle impossible the moment they decided to block.

    Clan players don’t care bout feints, firstly because they all have overly high estimations of themselves.

    ‘i can read feints!’ ‘i’m so skilled at pressing q!’ and due to relying on the q crutch, a lot of them find they do far worse in no feint combat.

    They also have a different set of interests - they have personal ties making them want to play the game. They have friends they play with, they have learning to cooporate together. (part of the difficulty in playing against the same people often is you get used to their patterns/capabilities, possibly giving you the illusion you have some sort of super esp)

    –—

    Who REALLY doesn’t want feints? Anyone who understands the combat mechanics of this game enough to get that you can feint around any block and wants to increase their personal skill.

    So, the majority of people this game wants to attract. Once you realize how shallow feinting makes the combat, and if you are not like me and aware you can go to ffa duel servers and get no feint fights going reliably

    You are going to feel so cheated that you invested all this time in the game and find out it was for nothing with the huge random thread going through the game’s core.

    Ive experienced this game at all levels of play, against all levels of player, using all manner of strategies, weapons, classes. In addition, melee games are pretty much all i enjoy playing and I have experience with the combat mechanics of a variety of them.

    Chivalry is so close to being absolutely perfect. Literally one mechanic and possibly some weapon balance tweaks away.



  • Trying to react to feints is the problem. You have to force your opponent into situations where feinting is the wrong choice. Start your attacks before he does so that you have the speed advantage (or just pick a faster weapon if you can stay in range of the shorter reach), keep at the edge of range and make him respect your ability to hit him with short feints i.e. don’t give the initiative away. Watch his head/shoulders to see if he is favoring one side, then attack on the opposite side, purposely missing or dragging back to the other side if he seems like he is going to block it.

    A powerful tool is a purposeful miss and then a combo feint, but with all that time not spent hitting your opponent, he can easily just stab you while you’re trying this, similarly to how running at an opponent and feinting once or twice leaves you wide open to a simple stab to the face.

    To bait out a real attack from an aggressive opponent, it’s often useful to run to the side, skirting the edge of your range while initiating with an alt slash, or masking the windup of a poke/LMB that you will later turn into him as he chases. If he feints either offensively or simply to keep range as he chases, this turning attack will force him to block or get hit, but since you’re at a decent range, you can react to whatever he does next. If he counters off the parry, you know it can’t be feinted and are safe to sprint into the attack and force the parry for the advantage (since he can purposeful-miss to regain the initiative instead of letting you block) or simply step out of reach and reset the fight.

    Similarly, you can bait out a feint by appearing passive and then throwing out a lookdown overhead or accel-slash. Masking the windup of a poke or overhead, if you can do that, is great for catching someone who thinks you’re easy prey for a feint.

    None of these things are a factor in no-feint fights because you never have to worry about forcing a real attack, baiting a feint by being passive for a second and then attacking, or keeping him at range so that you can re-initiate with a feint if you have stamina advantage. No-feints are just always going to be real attacks, so all you have to worry about is whether or not you can block that attack. I know it’s rewarding to block, but when that’s literally the only thing you have to worry about, it becomes boring quickly. Good mixup drags are the only things that win no-feint fights, or if you’re less experienced at reading movements, jump fakeouts and such can also win you the fight.

    This is all assuming 2Her vs 2Her, 1Her fights are completely different and feinting is more powerful simply because blocking is more difficult, though of course being aggressive and purposeful-miss combos are also more powerful due to lower recovery/combo times.

    TL;DR = Feinting is not luck. If you are standing there expecting to block every attack thrown at you, expect to eat several feints in response. That’s what they are designed for and you will be punished if you just let your opponent have the initiative all the time.



  • With each post you continue to reveal your true agenda. I apologise in advance for the passive-aggressiveness in this post but, quite frankly, I’ve had enough.

    I can play like bada is in the video.

    I can do swing diagrams on my opponents weapon and just put a macro on one of my mouse buttons to execute an optimal series of moves agaisnt my opponent, and generally that will work since I’ll only have to worry about dragging my swings to hit them within proper windows.

    But I don’t like to. I don’t like to be a constant aggressor, and then hit around the enemy blocks by pressing Q.

    “I can play as good as anyone else, but I just don’t want to!”

    If there’s any evidence at all that this is the case then I would absolutely love to see it. But I guess there’s no way you’d go back to dirty feint fighting to prove a point.

    I don’t really no why such an intelligent being like you even argues with clearly inferior minded, terribad scrubs who know nothing about anything. Seems kinda… well, stupid. Oh silly me, I must be missing something that’s really obvious but I’m too stupid to notice.

    We have one side, the anti feint side, using facts. Using diagrams. Using comparisons to the melee systems of other games, using youtube videos, using logic.

    “I made diagrams, comparisons and used some logic in my arguments.”

    Well, fantastic. You’ve put forward a well presented case, and given us all the evidence we need to completely disagree with your conclusion. Thanks.

    Clan players don’t care bout feints, firstly because they all have overly high estimations of themselves.

    ‘i can read feints!’ ‘i’m so skilled at pressing q!’ and due to relying on the q crutch, a lot of them find they do far worse in no feint combat.

    Ahem, allow me to…

    "Feintless players (and intelligent geniuses like JCash himself) care very much about feints. They are all very skilled and know it’s true (but we try hard not to shout about it :D ).

    As you can clearly see, our playstyle requires the fine art of pressing RMB on our mouse to block incoming attacks. Relying on this pure and high skill ability we storm to victory in every fight (except when there are feints and our crutch skill doesn’t work but shhh)."

    The purpose of a debate is to convince the opposition of the validity of your point of view. Who are you appealing to with your posts? Calling everyone who opposes you a scrub is not going to gain you any support with anyone other than those who already agree with you. I’m sure my post won’t add anything useful to the discussion, but it was fun to write, and that’s all I can get out of feint arguments these days.



  • @Daiyuki:

    TL;DR = Feinting is not luck. If you are standing there expecting to block every attack thrown at you, expect to eat several feints in response. That’s what they are designed for and you will be punished if you just let your opponent have the initiative all the time.

    Nothing in your post, means dealing with feint fights is not based around guesswork.

    As i’ve said before, when fights are guesswork based, you develop peripheral strategies to try and deal with the fact that an given parry of yours can be hit around by the opponent pressing q.

    There are a lot of things you can do in order to avoid being a victim of guessing wrongly.

    This does not mean that if you guess wrongly you will not be hit.

    Chivalry is a guessing game, with luck based feint induced variability at its core, and a bunch of peripheral skills modifying the outcome of that guessing.

    You can diagram this stuff.

    You also ignore the ability to throw people off in a no feint fight, and the intermediate position to mine, which is feints nerfd to be in principle readable, making them TRUE TRICK mechanics, and not a GUESS mechanic.

    See, with a trick, there is an ability to SEE THROUGH the trick. With feints, it is a guess, with you using peripheral skills or meta knowledge to make the guessing slightly educated.

    @NabsterHax:

    I don’t really no why such an intelligent being like you even argues with clearly inferior minded, terribad scrubs who know nothing about anything. Seems kinda… well, stupid. Oh silly me, I must be missing something that’s really obvious but I’m too stupid to notice.

    Because I like this game. That is why.

    ! You’re a troll. You admit to being a troll, in your post. You raise no good points, all you do is attempt ad homs and maintain that feints are fine despite all the evidence to the contrary.
    !
    ! I am adding you and your foolish walls of text to my ignore list.
    !
    ! You’re arguing for the sake of arguing, ignoring all points I raise, and barreling ahead with a single line of idiotic ‘point of view’ spam with no facts or rebuttals to back any of it up. You are not debating, you’re trying to appeal to an audience that already holds your point of view, and trying to roll barrels down on me during an uphill battle, as i attempt to alter people’s perceptions of the status quo and provide a glimpse of a better alternative.
    !
    !
    !
    ! > “I can play as good as anyone else, but I just don’t want to!”
    !
    !
    ! Not where i was going with those statements at all. I was making the options explicit, so an empathetic person could think about them, and try to determine what might be the most satisfying. The videos of no feint fighting, the videos of bada’s feint fighting, or a mechanical ‘optimal strategy’ programmed onto a macro button, using feint and automatically executed actions based on assumed optimal play from the opponent. Or something like that.
    !
    ! You fall into a problem a lot of people do. When they identify the most base reason a person could possibly have for including a comment, a peripheral comment to my overall post, they harp on that possible base reason, and that peripheral comment, to the exclusion of everything else.
    !
    ! What a minor thing to attempt and ‘call me out’ on.

    Alternative To Feint

    Now that the nature of feint as a timing devaluing luck based mechanic has been established, I want to talk about what viable feint alternatives are that would maintain a way to parry blows, but also stress reaction time.

    The Delay

    You press q, and rather than feinting during your windup, your character will hold or delay their swing. This can be used once per windup.

    It, along with possible changes to the parry window, would let you modify slightly, in addition to drags/lookdowns, when exactly your blow hit and punish people with poor parry timing. How much is subject to balancing, but imo .1 - .2 seconds would be reasonable.

    [image:gzu47lqr]http://25.media.tumblr.com/4c581541322763400e4b5cbc90b72a71/tumblr_mnaq3w0AIn1r64kp5o1_1280.jpg[/image:gzu47lqr]

    I put some lines in the diagram that just let me think a little better about human reaction time and ping. After every action, it must be considered ‘how long would it take for a human to perceive that’ and ‘how much will an assumed ping (70 both players) throw off the perception’

    This geometric way of understanding exchanges is fairly powerful, and I think if explored a little would lead to people realizing the problems feinting causes to reaction based combat and find a VASTLY SUPERIOR solution to stress reaction time that is in principle readable.



  • There are no intelligent pro feint arguments. Not a single one from a single human being.

    That’s purely subjective when you look at it. People have given countless pro-feint arguments, and the fact that you speak out against it so loud shows your true agenda. Others have adapted, you have not; yet you go on about others wanting buffs and defending their particular play-style when you are doing the exact same thing.

    I rarely feint, ever. Which makes it so much more powerful when I do feint, because nobody expects it. As far as I know, Kiri is in the same boat as me (is that Kiri or Kartani?’ apologies if i mix that up). Somehow people who don’t feint or rarely feint aren’t allowed to have pro-feint arguments? Even though there are completely valid statements shown before you, you dismiss them instantly and call people unintelligent for even showing that as a case.

    I respect people’s views like Radiant. I think they are valid, but of course, a little mis-guided. But hey, people have different views. I don’t go and off him as someone of inferior intelligence because he has different ideals. Just because you don’t agree with someone doesn’t mean their cases aren’t valid.

    EDIT: Since you edited your post, I just caught your feint change suggestion; and that is actually a pretty neat idea. It also might workaround having to put in extra animations as well, keeping it inexpensive; but the other issue might be animation clunkiness. It may look awkward, which is what people are complaining about right now in terms of lookdown overheads and whatnot.



  • Keep fighting the good fight Jcash.



  • @NoVaLombardia:

    Just because you don’t agree with someone doesn’t mean their cases aren’t valid.

    You believe this game should have a guesswork based hit mechanic allowing the bypassing of perfectly timed parries.

    I do not. This is a fundamental value difference, I do not believe luck should play a major determining role in the core combat functions of a competitive or skill based video game.

    Full stop.

    as i said before

    If you’re looking for a casual slasher with a variety of weapons and a heavily luck influenced combat system limiting how good you can get - chivalry is for you.

    If you are looking for

    (A competitive multiplayer FPS).

    …so much depth to the combat that you can become a master swordsman over time.

    The game is skill-based…

    …the best melee combat game ever.”

    http://www.chivalrythegame.com/blog/about-it
    It is not this game, when the core is feinting, a luck based mechanic. I am sorry, it simply is not.



  • There have been plenty of legitimate pro-feint arguments, many talked about before you started your crusade.

    In the end it comes down to personal preference and game design ideals. Many people have argued their case and moved on, and I think it’s understandable that people are tired of arguing for feints when every single time there is someone screaming “dice roll” and completely missing the point.

    I understand your point of view and why you dislike feint. You think luck is bad for any competitive purpose and that it allows low skill players to beat the best. Clearly you lack the ability to understand the pro-feint point of view because your replies to my counter-arguments of these stances have been the same every time and have done nothing to actually refute the points.

    Until you can convince me (not dismiss me) we will have to agree to disagree.



  • @JCash:

    Feinting a luck based mechanic.

    Our core value difference is boiled down to this:

    I think feinting is not a luck-based mechanic.

    You think feinting is a luck-based mechanic.

    We are at an impasse.

    It comes down to game design ideals. The point I bring up constantly is, why is every competitive game based around these same mechanics, only with much faster paced un-reactable timeframes? Why is this game not exempt when every other game is?



  • Well said JCash.

    Allow me to add my tuppence-worth…

    The only reason the BS fantasy-move ‘FEINT’ works is because of the BS fantasy-move ‘FLICK PARRY’.

    I used to sword-fight in real life, still have a bash occasionally, and there is no such thing as ‘feinting’ (the very notion is beyond laughable). Even in BOXING it would be BULLSHIT. But the defence there is “CMW isn’t supposed to be realistic!” Well, if that’s the case, what are we arguing for?! All those who are sick to their back teeth with console arcade DRECK can just leave the building!

    Oh…they already did. All 20K+ of them. The only people left are arcade junkies and a handful of simmers desperately trying to save this game from arcade mediocrity.

    You can’t ‘feint’ somebody in real life, force them to put up a parry that has a duration of a fraction of a second and then fails and leaves the fighter open to a clear strike. IT’S UTTER BULLSHIT!!! It’s arcade DRECK of the worst possible kind. But take the ‘feint’ away and what is left? That’s right…an honest strike that may or may not be successfully parried, depending on the attackee’s SPEED and ACCURACY of parry. And there’s MOAR! The defender may choose to go straight from his parry to a strike, while the attacker’s first strike may be part of a combo. Wow! The complexity of the dynamic is already fucking AWESOME, without the need for the CHEAP-ASS, DYNAMIC-WRECKING, BULLSHIT FEINT!

    Oh, I forgot. It makes combats go on for too long.

    O…M…F…G…!!! SERIOUSLY?! This is a legitimate complaint?! in a SWORDFIGHTING game? What, ya’ll want a fight over in seconds? Errol fucking Flyn must be spinning in his grave, spitting so much contempt he’s pretty much dish-washing his own ass.

    This ain’t no “Epic Swordfighting game”, it’s a game of coin-toss mediocrity. But oh, how simple to fix it. DUMP THE FUCKING FEINT.



  • @NoVaLombardia:

    @JCash:

    Feinting a luck based mechanic.

    Our core value difference is boiled down to this:

    I think feinting is not a luck-based mechanic.

    You think feinting is a luck-based mechanic.

    We are at an impasse.

    It comes down to game design ideals. The point I bring up constantly is, why is every competitive game based around these same mechanics, only with much faster paced un-reactable timeframes? Why is this game not exempt when every other game is?

    You’re missing the fucking point. In a REAL swordfight you cannot ‘feint’ your opponent and cause him to parry such that you then get a free fucking shot at his ass. That mechanic is ARCADE BULLSHIT.

    But if arcade is what you want, go whore Soulblade on a console and give us PC players a shot at having a proper fucking sim.

    I am SO sick to my back teeth with greedy selfish console BRATS thinking they can have it all their way on the PC too. Was a time when the PC was the choice of DEPTH. Then the paddle-bashing console FUCKTARDS polluted the genre with mommie’s money and this is what we get, whining dreck-lovers wanting everything on the PC dumbed down to moron-level too.

    “Wah, wah, I ain’t got the skill, gimme a coin-toss getout!”



  • I agree with the OP.

    +1

    Feints are ruining the game. It could be really funny without them, or at least finally with a proper nerf…

    And all the arguments are completely valid in my opinion. I more and more get the feeling, that many players don’t want to have feints removed, just because it’s their only way to succeed in a fight. If you have ever played a duel without “offensive” feints, you should know how funny it is… if not: At least try it.

    I still see no reason for feints to even be in the game. It’s a swordfighting game, and the swordfighting is replaced by a guess-mechanic, which punishes blocking/parrying(I still don’t get the difference, apologies) heavily.

    And seriously: The argument that fights are too long without feints… IN A SWORDFIGHTING GAME!? On one side you want swordfights, on the other side you want them to be over within seconds… Who is faster at exploiting the game. Sounds really funny…


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