Competitive Map Balance - Too many DNFs



  • Hi there, this could probably go in the balance forum, but I didn’t want it subjected to non-competitive players as this issue doesn’t really affect them.

    In my opinion, the best scrims are those where both teams finish all objectives. You have a clear winner and a good idea of how much they won by, and it’s extremely exciting to watch the timer count down the last seconds needed for the win.

    Unfortunately, I’ve noticed that most scrims finish with one team finishing and the other DNFing (which can be close but often isn’t) or both teams DNFing on the last objective. I think everyone will agree it’s not particularly fun to draw a game, and a game that could be a very close win for one team turns into a complete anti-climax. One team finishing and the other DNFing also isn’t very fun, especially when it’s caused by a particularly stingy timer on the first objective (darkforest, I’m looking at you). One team could finish the objective with a second to spare and go on to recover and complete the whole map. The other team could miss it by one second and lose the entire game there and then.

    The problem stems from certain maps being much more favoured for defence in organised play. The best option, I feel, would be to rebalance the maps for competitive play. Make it easier for the attackers to win (simple spawn timer reductions for attackers would help this), while making sure there is plenty of opportunity for better teams to finish faster.

    I would also like to hear some opinions on the way map timers work. Should time be added for each objective like now (and if so, should they stay the same or be changed for certain maps), or do you think it’s fairer to have a total map time-limit?



  • I think its already like that right now. Any more advantages and the defenders would never win.

    Literally every TO map the attackers get the advantage on all stages except the last one.

    If anything comp needs more maps with objectives that don’t drag out for 10 minutes. While its fun sometimes the scrims last more than an hour…



  • @zombojoe:

    I think its already like that right now. Any more advantages and the defenders would never win.

    Literally every TO map the attackers get the advantage on all stages except the last one.

    If anything comp needs more maps with objectives that don’t drag out for 10 minutes. While its fun sometimes the scrims last more than an hour…

    ?

    Yes, if I hadn’t made it clear enough I was saying that in a competitive scrim that isn’t completely unbalanced the “defenders” should never win. Currently even very balanced teams end up both DNFing the map which is silly. It doesn’t matter how much advantage attackers get, because both sides are played by each team.



  • Hm… it’s not that unbalanced for pub play as it is, though.



  • I guess that’s why he’s talking about competitive balance… just a guess



  • No shit. Point is, it would be bad to change the balance because it would ruin all the pub gaming, which is by far the vast majority of the play.



  • @dudeface:

    No shit. Point is, it would be bad to change the balance because it would ruin all the pub gaming, which is by far the vast majority of the play.

    How hard do you imagine it would be to copy+paste existing maps and edit them to be competitive versions?

    TBS needs to come up with some competitive specific maps and modes, or give us the tools to make them ourselves ASAP.

    I posted in this forum specifically to avoid “but in public…” because it is really not a concern. I mainly wanted opinions from competitive players about their ideal solution to this problem, or if they see it as a problem at all.



  • Bring back Monastery and Shore!!



  • Releasing the map tools would be the best solution.



  • Only if they also release the source files of the original maps which I doubt. I hope so though…



  • @NabsterHax:

    How hard do you imagine it would be to copy+paste existing maps and edit them to be competitive versions?

    What kind of tweaks would be good though? I guess you can always do simple stuff like speeding up carts, reducing the health of doors, etc.



  • @dudeface:

    @NabsterHax:

    How hard do you imagine it would be to copy+paste existing maps and edit them to be competitive versions?

    What kind of tweaks would be good though? I guess you can always do simple stuff like speeding up carts, reducing the health of doors, etc.

    This is why I posted this thread. To generate ideas. I already gave one: overall reduction in attacker spawn timers.

    To get any decent time on an objective currently you need to clear up the defending team and be left with your full force of 5 guys. Anything less than that and you might as well not bother trying to do the objective.

    Perhaps a more dynamic spawn system is needed? Respawn times dependant on how many people are alive, or how many have died from either team in the last few seconds.



  • TBH, the only issue with DNF is with tie-ing, and only on a select few objectives.

    Objectives like the Ram in stoneshill; most teams will get the ram to the wall, at that point its 99% for a while and this is where the tie can easily happen.

    In dark forest, the tie can happen at the sluice gate.

    In Citadel, it would be the first objective, and breaking the doors down objective.

    Any objective that is at a standstill without progression being an option is in danger of that. Otherwise, time frames dictate the victories.

    For the most part, the TO’s are fine; there may need to be a timer tweak here and there; but I’m not really noticing anything jarring atm.



  • @NabsterHax:

    Perhaps a more dynamic spawn system is needed? Respawn times dependant on how many people are alive, or how many have died from either team in the last few seconds.

    Yeah, or even dependent on which stage of the map you are playing. It would be good if this could be changed from within the map, but I recall Kimiko saying (in reply to somebody wanting respawn time to be a server setting) that this was hardcoded in the engine. I scoffed so hard I nearly fell from my chair. I’m sure TBS could expose this setting if they really wanted to, though.



  • @dudeface:

    @NabsterHax:

    Perhaps a more dynamic spawn system is needed? Respawn times dependant on how many people are alive, or how many have died from either team in the last few seconds.

    Yeah, or even dependent on which stage of the map you are playing. It would be good if this could be changed from within the map, but I recall Kimiko saying (in reply to somebody wanting respawn time to be a server setting) that this was hardcoded in the engine. I scoffed so hard I nearly fell from my chair. I’m sure TBS could expose this setting if they really wanted to, though.

    It’s not hardcoded in the engine, it’s just hardcoded in the game, meaning there are currently no configuration files to control it. The Dev team have full control over any and every spawn time they wish.



  • The biggest thing I’d like to see with spawn timers is having defending and attacking spawn timers offset.

    As of now, both teams share the same spawn timer. There would be more strategy in being able to fight for optimal push timings from both sides this way.



  • Each team has a separate timer currently.



  • @Martin:

    Each team has a separate timer currently.

    Might want to check that again. I’m always looking at spawn timers when I play stoneshill, because I use that to time my catapult shots. Every time the enemy team wave spawns, defending team wave spawns with them.



  • @Martin:

    It’s not hardcoded in the engine, it’s just hardcoded in the game, meaning there are currently no configuration files to control it. The Dev team have full control over any and every spawn time they wish.

    Sorry, I expressed that poorly. Didn’t mean it was a global Unreal setting or anything. My scoffing was because they hadn’t put it as a configurable setting to begin with. I like as many settings as possible to be exposed.



  • TB would also need to add a command to make it easy for players to check the servers configurations (something like /serverinfo).


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