Archer limits on official servers?



  • I want to bring up a topic that I’m sure many people have experienced and have had to deal with.
    That topic is archer spam. In game modes like team objective and especially Last team standing, archer spam is the cancer that kills an entire server. For the second time today, I’ve played in a server where over half the enemies team were archers and it is absolutely unplayable. They ruin entire games like this. I’ve noticed many players writing hateful messages in the chat box towards these players because they are spamming the archer class. This even happened in the beta where almost the whole enemy team were archers, and because of the mechanic whereby you are shot by an arrow, your sprint is stopped, you will most likely get shot by more projectiles which was the case. Most of the time, in team objective maps, this leads to your team being stuck in spawn and in LTS this usually means that the whole enemy team will camp somewhere and will just shoot you. You wont be able to get close because you’ll get shot, flinched and then picked off by the few melee they have on their team. This makes the Vanguard class completely unplayable. They are far too easy a target for archers, 1 arrow to the body and that’s 95 damage which is all your HP gone. On certain maps like the Moor, the team with the most archers has a significant advantage. Too many archers ruin the game so I’d like to suggest setting archer limits on your official servers. Limit the class to about 4 or 5 archers per team.It’s better than having a team of 6-8 archers ruin entire servers. Just a suggestion. Let me know what you guys think of it. Otherwise I’ll be forever bound to independent servers with archer limits.



  • I agree with you that you need to put a limit to the number of archers in these mods… but don’t take it off (I’m not saying that you sayed that XD ) I mean archer is pretty impotent class in the game… at least I think like that…



  • Never ever going to happen. People didn’t buy the game to be unable to play a class they want to.

    Takes a long time to unlock the archer so needs to be played a lot.

    Plus when you have high ranks coming in an owning melee its natural for newer players to fall back and just go with archer so they don’t have to deal with high level killing machines up close.



  • @gregcau:

    Never ever going to happen. People didn’t buy the game to be unable to play a class they want to.

    Takes a long time to unlock the archer so needs to be played a lot.

    Plus when you have high ranks coming in an owning melee its natural for newer players to fall back and just go with archer so they don’t have to deal with high level killing machines up close.

    there is a point on what you are saying :) but I mean it can make a team to rage quit from the game witch it is can be worse then some men will play as a knight instead of an archer and will be one next time… ( just my thought)



  • @gregcau:

    Never ever going to happen. People didn’t buy the game to be unable to play a class they want to.

    Takes a long time to unlock the archer so needs to be played a lot.

    Plus when you have high ranks coming in an owning melee its natural for newer players to fall back and just go with archer so they don’t have to deal with high level killing machines up close.

    Yes but the game is horribly balanced with all these bugs an exploits. You have to be at least rank 40+ with a few hundred hours in the game to have any chance of beating some people in this game in a 1v1 duel even once unless you are the luckiest man alive. Once Torn Banner balance this game out, it will be much easier for the new players to play melee and kill experienced players. In the Beta, it already feels much harder to recover from your mistakes which is good. Even with all these exploits that the high level players are using, they still are unable to beat a team full of archers in a pub server. This happens too often to be overlooked. Being exploited to shit is one thing. Being shot by a million arrows before you can even leave your spawn is another. One will be fixed, the other one hasn’t seen any attention.



  • @Harbinger:

    Yes but the game is horribly balanced with all these bugs an exploits. You have to be at least rank 40+ with a few hundred hours in the game to have any chance of beating some people in this game in a 1v1 duel even once unless you are the luckiest man alive. Once Torn Banner balance this game out, it will be much easier for the new players to play melee and kill experienced players. In the Beta, it already feels much harder to recover from your mistakes which is good. Even with all these exploits that the high level players are using, they still are unable to beat a team full of archers in a pub server. This happens too often to be overlooked. Being exploited to shit is one thing. Being shot by a million arrows before you can even leave your spawn is another. One will be fixed, the other one hasn’t seen any attention.

    A high skill ceiling is never a bad thing. If someone puts over 600 hours 800 hours 10000 hours, well its good that they are 100 times better that someone who is 6 hours into the game. Sure there are still some exploits, but for the most part, better players are better because of all the experience.

    The been there done that holds so true for this game. I have about 600 hours in the game, and I know all the ranges and speeds for all the weapons in the game. So sure I have an advantage vs new players and generally won’t lose. But I don’t think it should ever be viewed as a negative if a player invest more time, then their skill cap keeps rising.

    The only saving grace, is more populated servers for only under 20 ranks. Let them learn to swim before diving into the deep end. As far as a team of archers pub stomping, unless they are top shelf archers, it isn’t really a problem for a shield(only last objective on hillside is annoying).



  • Urgh no, not on official servers. Those should be the baseline game.

    L2shield, L2dodge, L2throw, L2terrain, simple as. The game doesn’t come with hard locks on archers, and it is simply YOUR opinion that you don’t like them, that shouldn’t go for EVERYONE.

    Absolutely fine with the ability to tune class limits on private servers though, which we have already.

    Also for the record I don’t primarily play archer, I crossbow now and then but otherwise arse around with many different class / weapon combinations. You can have a shield and JUST use it for the archers if you wish. 3/4 classes are easily capable of dealing with archers. Vanguard takes a bit more work but it’s still do-able.



  • @Harbinger:

    You have to be at least rank 40+ with a few hundred hours in the game to have any chance of beating some people in this game in a 1v1 duel even once unless you are the luckiest man alive.

    I beat Park Ranger once, and it was a lucky blow.

    40+ is more than a few hundred, probably 700+ depending on which modes of play they used to get there.

    Even with balance, bugs and the few exploits they will still dominate at duels purely to better timing, footwork and general skills.

    Thats the nice thing about TO, doesn’t matter how good you are, two or three noobs can still catch you off guard and flinch is a bitch with multiple opponents.

    A large number of archers is annoying, you can always use a shield with zagging or a crossbow to take them out. If you can’t beat them, join them.



  • @BobT36:

    Urgh no, not on official servers. Those should be the baseline game.

    L2shield, L2dodge, L2throw, L2terrain, simple as. The game doesn’t come with hard locks on archers, and it is simply YOUR opinion that you don’t like them, that shouldn’t go for EVERYONE.

    Absolutely fine with the ability to tune class limits on private servers though, which we have already.

    Also for the record I don’t primarily play archer, I crossbow now and then but otherwise arse around with many different class / weapon combinations. You can have a shield and JUST use it for the archers if you wish. 3/4 classes are easily capable of dealing with archers. Vanguard takes a bit more work but it’s still do-able.

    L2Mod nub. You forgot that one!



  • @ChuckingIt:

    L2Mod nub. You forgot that one!

    I meant for official servers, hehe. :P



  • @BobT36:

    L2shield, L2dodge, L2throw, L2terrain, simple as.

    I thought the main concern was your own team’s archer count. :?



  • I dunno about teams with a lot of archers being unbeatable, but I’m all for putting limits on official servers so we end up with less situations like this so my team might actually make it out of the spawn at least once in the entire round.



  • @BobT36:

    Urgh no, not on official servers. Those should be the baseline game.

    L2shield, L2dodge, L2throw, L2terrain, simple as. The game doesn’t come with hard locks on archers, and it is simply YOUR opinion that you don’t like them, that shouldn’t go for EVERYONE.

    Absolutely fine with the ability to tune class limits on private servers though, which we have already.

    Also for the record I don’t primarily play archer, I crossbow now and then but otherwise arse around with many different class / weapon combinations. You can have a shield and JUST use it for the archers if you wish. 3/4 classes are easily capable of dealing with archers. Vanguard takes a bit more work but it’s still do-able.

    This advice works if there are less than 3-4 archers on the opposing team. Archer spam is a huge deal and makes winning TO as the attacker (when defender is the one archer spamming) nearly impossible.

    and as the OP stated, archer spam in LTS is extremely OP especially if you have good melee frontlines to boot. I played on a 64p server as an archer on a LTS game on Arena and me and about 10 other archers were utterly unstoppable. I used the heavy crossbow and went 20-3. Top of the whole team, even over frontline knights and vanguards.



  • @David:

    I dunno about teams with a lot of archers being unbeatable, but I’m all for putting limits on official servers so we end up with less situations like this so my team might actually make it out of the spawn at least once in the entire round.

    I have yet to ever see or be in a situation where we are getting spawn camped by archers.

    Spawn camping happens due to the whole team being pushed back and being funneled by the frontline melee. That’s more effectively the ENTIRE team spawn camping because they are successfully pushing you back constantly.

    If you want to punish the enemy for having too many archers, go mostly melee. Having a melee advantage that you can absolutely wreck the front lines due to outnumbering them, then move to the archers. Smokes also help here in order for the archers to give less support to their front line.

    This is also more of an issue for playing with a competent team, than archers ruining the gameplay experience.



  • I’ve got 800 hours in the game, I know all the ranges and speeds of the weapons too. And I exploit worse than most of the players in this game. I am what I hate. An exploiter. But only because it is the only way to play. I agree with you completely chuck on the fact that players with more experience and play time in the game should be much better yes. But they should win fairly, not using exploits and tactics as they do to go 60-0 k/d ratio in a pub server. That ratio should not be possible to be honest in the time frame of any of the game modes available. I’ve gotten similar ratios like that myself, and while it takes skill to judge the ranges of each attack and determine and predict the movement and placement of my enemies, it really wasn’t that hard to look at the floor to instant overhead stab combo them and kill them in seconds. What you can do in the live version of this game is simply not fair on the lower ranks, who aren’t aware of any ini file edits other players might be using or the different exploitable game mechanics that are being used on them. That is why I think the beta is such an improvement, because it makes you less of an immortal god. You can actually be killed in the beta by lower ranks because you can’t bullshit the game. You can’t just exploit your way out of it in the beta. Don’t get me wrong, a high level player wouldn’t lose to a low level player in 1v1, but at least in public games, the noobs will have a chance of killing experienced players when it’s not a 1v1 situation, instead of experienced high level players being able to take on an entire team by themselves.

    As for learn 2 shield, learn 2 dodge and all that nonsense. Been there, Done that. As I mentioned before, I am simply 1 player against an entire team of archers and few melee. As a vanguard, I have no archer resistance and 1 arrow is 95 damage and all of my HP gone. As a knight, if I use a shield, unless I go pro clanfag mode and set the field of view to 130 like all the pros, I can’t see past the shield very well and the shield limits my combat effectiveness (AKA, my ability to chain combos into people and exploit them like all the pros). And since I’m usually the last person left alive against about 6 archers and a few melee, it doesn’t go down very well. Archer spam is a big issue in LTS but not so much the other game modes. LTS they can just camp and shoot you. Limiting the archer class would help to fix this. 4-5 archers is still 1/4th or more of the teams population which is fair.
    The devs should consider making vanguards a little more archer resistant. Smoke pots don’t help, trust me, they’re my favorite utility and I use them all the time to create distractions but they aren’t really effective enough for the vanguard in terms of archer resistance.

    Fair play though, this thread had accomplished more than I had hoped. Of all people, moderators have responded which is cool. I never expected TB to actually implement the feature discussed in this thread, but I had hoped to hear some opinions on it so I’m happy that this thread has gotten that far. I really must stress my opinion on vanguard though, even with archer spam the other classes are fully playable, but vanguards aren’t. Perhaps lower the damage slightly so that vanguards can regenerate quicker and help their team faster instead of having to find a corner to wait in and regenerate in for a minute (Assuming they’re lucky enough to have even survived after being shot to begin with).



  • Heh just remember us mods have no real influence on the game and don’t make decisions, when we post in things like this, it’s simply our own opinions, not Torn Banner’s. :)

    Anyways I’m all for TUNING things, but not outright limiting them, not for official servers anyways. Archers were a BIG part of medieval warfare after all, and that’s what this game is named. For Private servers well, as much configurability as possible is best!

    I believe Knights with their armour and shields are more than well equipped to deal with archers, that includes dispatching (and dismembering) them when they actually get close. Other archers can simply fire back, Man At arms also have shields, are quick on their feet and can dodge.

    That leaves Vanguards, which I’m happy with Archers being quite a risk for. To me that vulnerability is part of gameplay. (I play a Spear Vanguard slightly more often than other weps). Heck up close a Vanguard can even kill an archer who’s sneaking up behind him and is a powerhouse with offense, therefore I feel they should be vulnerable at range.

    I do however think the smoke pot needs tuning more though, it’s thicker now at least (was really useless at release, and even worse in Alpha), but it should last a lot longer than it does, and also be quicker to throw. Even with two of them it’s not worth it enough to actually use it. It should be an area denial and also an escape item.



  • @Event:

    I played on a 64p server as an archer on a LTS game on Arena and me and about 10 other archers were utterly unstoppable.

    That doesn’t quite seem like a scenario that balancing should be based around.



  • @NoVaLombardia:

    @David:

    I dunno about teams with a lot of archers being unbeatable, but I’m all for putting limits on official servers so we end up with less situations like this so my team might actually make it out of the spawn at least once in the entire round.

    I have yet to ever see or be in a situation where we are getting spawn camped by archers.

    Spawn camping happens due to the whole team being pushed back and being funneled by the frontline melee. That’s more effectively the ENTIRE team spawn camping because they are successfully pushing you back constantly.

    If you want to punish the enemy for having too many archers, go mostly melee. Having a melee advantage that you can absolutely wreck the front lines due to outnumbering them, then move to the archers. Smokes also help here in order for the archers to give less support to their front line.

    This is also more of an issue for playing with a competent team, than archers ruining the gameplay experience.

    I’m talking about having my team consist almost entirely of archers so we easily get pushed back into our spawn on offence. When the other team is mostly archer it’s usually a free victory unless any of them are higher than rank 40.



  • @BobT36:

    I do however think the smoke pot needs tuning more though, it’s thicker now at least (was really useless at release, and even worse in Alpha), but it should last a lot longer than it does, and also be quicker to throw. Even with two of them it’s not worth it enough to actually use it. It should be an area denial and also an escape item.

    Completely depends on the map though, too. I feel as though smokes are already great for maps like dark-forest, and stones-hill throneroom. Also certain spots in citadel.

    On maps like moor, its more difficult to use effectively, and you would often need at least 4 smokes to be able to use smokes effectively on this map.

    Seems as though the duration is fine; perhaps the fade-in time from the start could be faster, and the throwing range.

    The other thing I would like to see with smokes is if there is a temporary blindness if you get directly hit by a smoke pot and the removal of showing “red reticules” in the smoke. People that try to hide behind smoke and bait people that way is usually completely useless, because the enemy can just wave his reticule in the smoke and see a red dot.

    Hell, is a red dot even needed? All it does is show if you’re in range to activate a chase mechanic; remove plx.



  • @AngryDave:

    @Event:

    I played on a 64p server as an archer on a LTS game on Arena and me and about 10 other archers were utterly unstoppable.

    That doesn’t quite seem like a scenario that balancing should be based around.

    Why doesn’t it? Every map in this game is imbalanced in one way or another.
    Some maps aren’t an issue because it requires actual tactic to exploit the imbalances of a particular map, so in public play it isn’t an issue. But there are many maps that are just poorly balanced in favor of Archers and that is why they are so effective.

    Maps like the Moor where there is virtually nowhere to take cover from other than on your side of the map or the edges. This map is archer heaven because if you go through the middle, unless you’re using a shield, you’re just going to get raped by arrows. In most cases, people will try to run around the side of this map and use the large rock next to the lake as cover, but this just funnels you all in to one big group and the archers are more capable of raining down hell on you.

    Maps like Arena where again, there is virtually no cover and enemy archers can just spam and pick you off before you reach them. The time it takes for the remaining survivors of your team to make it to the enemy side of the arena, you will be confronted with almost the entire enemy team who will then finish you off.

    The thing is, these maps are great and fun to play and I wouldn’t want them to be changed. Archers only become an issue on these maps when over half the team occupy the class and camp.


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