Change to flinching system



  • Been discussing in-game/over steam/on the forums with some people about the current state of weapon balance specifically in regards to fast weapons vs. slow weapons. Ignoring all of the other reasons fast weapons come out on top 9 times out of 10 regardless of damage gap, I think flinching in general is an imperfect system right now and needs to be looked at, especially in that it can make it literally impossible to win a fight against a competent player with a very fast weapon like the mace while using a slow weapon like the double axe. The mace player doesn’t even have to trade parries with you - he just has to parry your attacks long enough to get in range, and then he can keep spamming because even if you parry successfully and combo into a swing he’ll still be able to hit you during your windup after his recovery period and then you’re pretty much dead.

    I propose two-handed weapons should flinch on any attack, while one-handed weapons should only flinch on headshots. This would not extend to the knight’s swords when wielded one-handed, however, because they already take a significant decrease in damage when used one-handed. Flinch on headshots forces the player to either swing/stab high and thus gives you the opportunity to duck their attacks, or use an overhead for an assured flinch, which is at the moment by far the easiest attack to avoid. It adds some degree of avoidance to being permanently flinched by a much faster weapon and makes flinching actually require some skill and precision.



  • I agree that there is a problem, though I’m not sure how best to fix it. The DH Axe is the worst, it’s wind up is incredibly long, and thus it is easier to stop an attack by making the Knight flinch, than by parrying. IMO heavy weapons should have a shorter period of time in which they can be stopped with a flinch, because of their heavier weight.



  • Im not sure if I agree with this. I have seen a lot of competent players using 2h weapons successfully against me and I generally use fast weapons. The one thing that I might add for the knight is a faster cooldown for the kick.



  • What about a “flinch block”?



  • I think I could agree with that, I think I said something along those lines in one of my rambling posts.

    The other alternative is a stamina victory for someone in the exchange sequence of MAA attack at point blank, knight parry, knight kick, knight start attack (should have time to land after the kick), MAA parry and move in, MAA attack, knight parry…recycle.

    I think getting interrupted that much though is a price you pay for using a slow weapon. I’m not quite sure if the exchange is as binary as that though.



  • I too think there is a problem, but I’m not sure this is a good solution. It may overshoot a bit, scoring headshots isn’t very easy so for many players 1h’s will just become completely unviable. And it encourages hit-for-a-hit gameplay for twohanders, which isn’t a good thing imo.

    The issue is not, I believe, one handed vs two handed, but MaA vs twohanded. I personally haven’t experienced balance issues with knights or vanguards wielding onehanders. And I think the cause of this problem is that the combination of fast weapons and access to dodging is just too powerful. Dodging is at the root of the problem: without the ability to suddenly leap forward during an enemy’s windup, the reach disadvantage of 1h’s gives 2handers something to work with. But forward leaping increases the effective range of the MaA’s weapon to [weapon reach + dodge distance]. At least this is the case against slow weapons where you can, purely on reflex, respond to a swing windup by dodging in and attacking, completing both these actions before the opponent even managed to fully lift his weapon.

    When wielding a twohander, you simply do not have enough options to fight a class whose weapons are faster and who nullifies your reach advantage that easily through dodging. The only option is to spam thrusts because it’s far more risky for the MaA to leap into those. I think we have to find a way to make the range advantage count more, because right now having a longer weapon doesn’t mean all that much in a fight imo.

    One possibility is to make blocking heavy weapons a lot harder, either by Slash’s suggestion of taking a reduced amount damage and a big hit to stamina (like in AoC), or my suggestion that parrying would become harder against heavier weapons. That way the MaA needs to play more cautiously, he wouldn’t be able to just casually walk into range like he can now.

    Another possibility is to just make dodging available for all classes. MaA would still be best at it: their dodge distance could be longer and/or their dodge could be faster and/or the stamina cost could be lower. For a knight, dodging would cost so much stamina that they won’t use it as casually as MaA, only when an opportunity arises. Twohanders combined with dodging could make for some interesting possiblities. Big con of this suggestion is that it completely upsets balance, of course. It’s essentially starting from scratch again. So it’s unlikely that this will happen, to say the least.

    Perhaps a global speeding up of twohanders would suffice. I find all twohanders to be excruciatingly slow. Only the man-at-arms has the speed of movement and attacking required for me to enjoy the game. So not only might this solve a balance issue, it could also make the game in general more fun.

    edit: another possible solution would be to make kick more responsive and allow it to cancel your own attack, for example, but I don’t know whether I like that idea myself. A kick that’s too responsive would just make facezerking fighting styles completely obsolete. And while facezerking is too powerful atm, I definitely don’t want to kill it completely. I’m a pretty dedicated facehugger myself :P



  • This is a Very good point and i agree



  • @TheNarrator:

    Another possibility is to just make dodging available for all classes. MaA would still be best at it: their dodge distance could be longer and/or their dodge could be faster and/or the stamina cost could be lower. For a knight, dodging would cost so much stamina that they won’t use it as casually as MaA, only when an opportunity arises. Twohanders combined with dodging could make for some interesting possiblities. Big con of this suggestion is that it completely upsets balance, of course. It’s essentially starting from scratch again. So it’s unlikely that this will happen, to say the least.

    Perhaps a global speeding up of twohanders would suffice. I find all twohanders to be excruciatingly slow. Only the man-at-arms has the speed of movement and attacking required for me to enjoy the game. So not only might this solve a balance issue, it could also make the game in general more fun.

    edit: another possible solution would be to make kick more responsive and allow it to cancel your own attack, for example, but I don’t know whether I like that idea myself. A kick that’s too responsive would just make facezerking fighting styles completely obsolete. And while facezerking is too powerful atm, I definitely don’t want to kill it completely. I’m a pretty dedicated facehugger myself :P

    I like the dodge idea, but I think the best thing is just to boost the speed of two handed weapon. They are just way too slow, way too easy to dodge, even a knight can easily dodge a Vanguard’s greatsword.

    And face Hugging is what is plaguing most melee video game. It must be nerfed to the maximum, and make it a viable option only in some very limited case. I don’t want to kill it completely, but I don’t mind cutting it one or two leg.



  • I think speeding up the bigger weapons a bit is the solution to this, also stamina hits for spamming so people won’t just hack at your face.

    And dodging should have a 2 second cooldown so you can’t leap back to avoid a swing and then forward almost instantly to counter, and it should consume a considerable amount of stamina.



  • Apart from a few skilled players using other classes I often see these allegedly disadvantaged knights spamming their slow powerful weapons to victory. Are they really suffering that much?



  • Well, to balance a game you have to take in account the best players playing it, new people don’t use each classes/weapons advantages to their extreme, so even the most overpowered weapon can look underpowered in the hands of a new guy, and the opposite.



  • @akarnir:

    And face Hugging is what is plaguing most melee video game. It must be nerfed to the maximum, and make it a viable option only in some very limited case. I don’t want to kill it completely, but I don’t mind cutting it one or two leg.

    There’s nothing wrong with the concept. In fact I think learning how to facezerk effectively requires quite a bit of skill which makes it a valid playstyle. Facezerking should be a valid fighting style, but the problem with it right now is that it doesn’t seem to have a decent counter. It’s possible to defend yourself against one reliably (parry + kick tends to do the trick), but it’s hard to retaliate reliably when the facehugger makes a mistake, whereas when the twohander makes a mistake, the facehugger is all over him. For such offensive capability, the facezerker has too much defensive capability.



  • I don’t think they should remove the defensive capability of the facezerker/facehugger, but just buff the offensive capability of the twohander, not that much, just as much as it’s needed to make the facehugger concider it twice, and demand more precission and skill to successfuly facehug



  • @TheNarrator:

    @akarnir:

    And face Hugging is what is plaguing most melee video game. It must be nerfed to the maximum, and make it a viable option only in some very limited case. I don’t want to kill it completely, but I don’t mind cutting it one or two leg.

    There’s nothing wrong with the concept. In fact I think learning how to facezerk effectively requires quite a bit of skill which makes it a valid playstyle. Facezerking should be a valid fighting style, but the problem with it right now is that it doesn’t seem to have a decent counter. It’s possible to defend yourself against one reliably (parry + kick tends to do the trick), but it’s hard to retaliate reliably when the facehugger makes a mistake, whereas when the twohander makes a mistake, the facehugger is all over him. For such offensive capability, the facezerker has too much defensive capability.

    I find kick very unreliable ATM. There are some moment where i spam the ‘‘F’’ key against a face huger but not a single kick will come out.
    But anyway, even if i’m wrong and kick is reliable, like you said, it’s hard to retaliate against a face huger. Face Hugging should be way more risky and difficult to pull out. The best way to make it risky is to increase Two-handed weapon speed, so that’s it’s more difficult to dodge, and therefore more difficult to close up on the two-hander.



  • @Plazek:

    Apart from a few skilled players using other classes I often see these allegedly disadvantaged knights spamming their slow powerful weapons to victory. Are they really suffering that much?

    All the good knights I see use the warhammer or mace, with the occasional longsword because its stab is just barely fast enough to be viable. This is mainly a problem with the double axe, greatsword, bardiche, and numerous unreleased weapons. It’ll be especially horrible for the maul, which has a significantly longer windup than even the doubleaxe.

    My other idea was to change the Knight’s “tank” attribute to give him immunity to flinch instead of +50 health, since his armor values already make him significantly tankier without the huge health bonus, and speed up vanguard weapons some. But I’m worried simply making vanguard weapons faster will turn the problem on its head and the greatsword will just become a twice as long, twice as damaging broadsword that everyone uses.

    Also: Kick kinda sucks. It shouldn’t halt your forward momentum completely when you use it. Basically the only way to use kick reliably is to jump-kick, which consumes a lot of stamina and requires very precise timing because kick’s hit area is weird and won’t hit someone if you kick them in the face, only if you hit them below the upper torso.



  • I use the VG greatsword mostly and I can usually get a good k/d with it against non ‘facehuggers’. I typically don’t find the flinching to be too bad as a 2h user. What I do not like is being unable to block reliably against a weapon I cannot see due to the other player being too close (and therefor flinching me repeatedly). I otherwise don’t mind the speed of the 2h. I enjoy the feeling I get when a well timed attack hits with it, I just wish I felt like I did more damage to a knight then having to hit him 5 times compared to his tiny hammers 2hit to kill my VG.

    A suitable fix imo would be that if your arm and not the weapon would hit your target then you flinch yourself. This would force people to stay in weapon length which would stop the ‘facehugging swingers’…

    Another idea would just to have the collision box for movement only around a player be bigger.

    Just a couple ideas to throw out there.



  • @Malekous:

    What I do not like is being unable to block reliably against a weapon I cannot see due to the other player being too close (and therefor flinching me repeatedly).

    ^A million times this^

    Its incredibly frustrating as well when it appears they’re clipping through you, especially when you put up a shield to block, but they noclip through it and kill you. If the shield acted like a barrior, as it should; at least to the person blocking, it should allow you to have space to breath. I find myself constantly putting my shield up only for the clipping thing to happen. On their end they may be getting around my shield, but I literally can’t see anything but the inside of their heads clipping through mine and my shield.



  • I have found one strategy against spammers that works really well especially against maa.
    If I am playing as a knight with a battleaxe/longsword I will side step in the opposite side they are on (so if they are on my right hand side i’ll walk to the left) and then turn my screen while doing a overhand chop with either weapon.
    Usually their swing will miss me and my swing will hit them right on the side of the head and they have no chance to block it at all then finish them off with a stab before they can react. I also find this works well with Vanguard with Spear.

    Its not fool proof but I have definitely chopped enough spammers with it.



  • I agree that fast weapons do have an issue, but not only with MaA. I play archer 90% of the time as does Russian Mafia, both of us use the shortsword as our secondary and i find that both of us can easily out melee any knight or vanguard that we come across, especially if we get one ranged hit off on them. I know from using the longbow that going and stabbing a knight or vanguard to death is much easier than trying to shoot them with the bow, I also understand that it’s not the longbows job to get kills, but using a melee weapon over the ranged weapon as a ranged class shouldn’t be the case, especially when the shorsword stab is able to flinch kicks. One thing to think about would be that kicks are unable to be flinched as well as they interrupt any attack that’s being kicked no matter what stage it’s in.



  • @Vox:

    One thing to think about would be that kicks are unable to be flinched as well as they interrupt any attack that’s being kicked no matter what stage it’s in.

    If by that you mean that your kicks shouldn’t be interrupted even when you take damage, then i’m all for it.

    But I’m going to repeat myself a lot, a simple speed boost for the two handed would just fix everything.


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