Weapon talk : Daggers



  • Daggers are fast and deadly weapons that are only available for the Archer and Man-at arms class.
    They lack the power to deal any high damage or compete against other larger weapons, though combined with a deadly Archer shot, these weapons can prove to be a pretty strong finisher.

    UPDATED: Corrected damage values

    Broad Dagger

    ! Broad Dagger
    ! Attack style, Damage, Type, Force, Strenght, Windup, Combo, Release, Recovery and W+R+R
    ! Attack1 : 35 Cut F: 10000, 15 = 0.35/0.5/0.4/0.5 = 1.05
    ! Attack2 : 40 Pierce F: 10000, 16 = 0.35/0.5/0.4/0.425 = 1.075
    ! Attack3 : 35 Pierce F: 10000, 15 = 0.3/0.5/0.25/0.45 = 1
    ! Parry Strenght : 7
    ! Reach : 21
    ! Unique : Attack2 underhand stab
    ! Special :

    Hunting Knife

    ! Hunting Knife
    ! Attack style, Damage, Type, Force, Strenght, Windup, Combo, Release, Recovery and W+R+R
    ! Attack1 : 40 Cut F: 10000, 16 = 0.3/0.5/0.25/0.4 = 0.95
    ! Attack2 : 45 Cut F: 10000, 16 = 0.325/0.5/0.3/0.425 = 1.05
    ! Attack3 : 30 Pierce F: 10000, 13 = 0.35/0.5/0.35/0.4 = 1.1
    ! Parry Strenght : 6
    ! Reach : 28
    ! Unique :
    ! Special :

    Thrusting Dagger

    ! Thrusting Dagger
    ! Attack style, Damage, Type, Force, Strenght, Windup, Combo, Release, Recovery and W+R+R
    ! Attack1 : 30 Cut F: 10000, 14 = 0.35/0.5/0.35/0.4 = 1.1
    ! Attack2 : 50 Pierce F: 10000, 15 = 0.325/0.525/0.35/0.425 = 1.1
    ! Attack3 : 45 Pierce F: 10000, 15 = 0.3/0.5/0.25/0.45 = 1
    ! Parry Strenght : 6
    ! Reach : 21
    ! Unique : Attack2 underhand stab
    ! Special :
    Balance discussion.
    In my opinion, I think that daggers are at the moment daggers, and they are suppose to be treated as so, no further buff / nerf is actually required for them. An additional “backstab” damage for the dagger itself may cause it to become slightly useful in the arsenal for the Man-at arms, but for now it serves as a quite fast and dangerous finisher. Quite weak to take on full healthy opponents. Please share your opinions and thoughts about these three daggers.

    Weapon damage value dedicated for the weapon talk threads can be found here:
    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Ami8d_HZmYHsdDRzc1Byb3ItVWNXSFR1SURHN29TZnc#gid=82

    Weapon talk : URL Threads
    http://www.chivalrythegame.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=14535

    Up to date change suggestions:
    Date: Sun Jun 09, 2013 4:55 am

    ! Hunting Knife:
    ! Attack1 Windup 0.3>0.325, Combo 0.5>0.525, Release 0.25>0.3, Recovery 0.4>0.325
    ! Attack2 Base damage 45>50, Windup 0.325>0.375, Combo 0.5>0.55, Release 0.3>0.35, Recovery 0.425>0.4
    ! Attack3 Combo 0.5>0.55, Release 0.35>0.3, Recovery 0.4>0.425
    !
    ! Broad Dagger:
    ! Attack1 Base damage 35>40, Combo 0.5>0.55, Release 0.3>0.325, Recovery 0.4>0.375
    ! Attack2 Windup 0.35>0.375, Combo 0.5>0.55, Release 0.3>0.35, Recovery 0.425>0.4
    ! Attack3 Base damage 35>40 Windup 0.3>0.325, Combo 0.5>0.55, Recovery 0.45>0.425



  • I find them too difficult to block. Their different attack animations have them flipping position in the hand constantly and when you combine this with their high speed the result is a weapon which is extremely difficult to block. They can also use their high speed to “stun-lock” their targets. By that I mean you keep slashing and stabbing them continuously so they can’t block, kick, attack, or step backwards.

    I do not find them enjoyable to fight against and I avoid the people using them like the plague.



  • Considering they are daggers, they seem quite powerful already when in the right hands, taking into consideration how easy it is to get in close.



  • @Goden:

    I find them too difficult to block. Their different attack animations have them flipping position in the hand constantly and when you combine this with their high speed the result is a weapon which is extremely difficult to block. They can also use their high speed to “stun-lock” their targets. By that I mean you keep slashing and stabbing them continuously so they can’t block, kick, attack, or step backwards.

    I do not find them enjoyable to fight against and I avoid the people using them like the plague.

    You can always block though. Against a dagger you generally have to wait, take the next hit, then block if you got caught in an infinite combo string where he is hitting you after your parry goes down every time.



  • I find absolutely no reason to use a dagger over a shortsword.

    The Shortsword is only ‘slightly’ slower, it has longer reach, the combos flow better and are easier to land and it does more damage. Combine this with the awkward parry animation of daggers and well, daggers are just useless next to a shortsword.

    Shortsword:
    Attack style, Damage, Type, Windup, Combo, Release, Recovery and W+R+R.
    Attack1 : 40 Cut = 0.4/0.525/0.35/0.4 = 1.15
    Attack2 : 45 Cut = 0.4/0.525/0.35/0.4 = 1.15
    Attack3 : 50 Pierce = 0.4/0.525/0.3/0.425 = 1.125
    Reach : 25

    So my point is, why even use a dagger at all?



  • I feels as though daggers in general should get bonus damage from the back in order to ever give it viability over cudgel / shortsword



  • Oh god, hoards of backstabbing MAA. Please, no. Anything but that. D:



  • @dudeface:

    Oh god, hoards of backstabbing MAA. Please, no. Anything but that. D:

    More like archers with daggers getting a backstab bonus on top of another backstab bonus.



  • I think the the Backstab bonus needs to apply to the dagger weapon class, instead of the Archer class.

    Currently sabre slashes, cudgels, fists etc. all get the backstab damage bonus, despite that not actually making sense.

    If daggers got backstab damage and other weapons did not then there would be an actual use for them. Currently they are a harder to aim, harder to get in range, harder to use vs groups and deal less damage than the short sword.

    There’s little in the way of reason to use daggers, especially considering that they suffer from a quite extreme parry-nerf which other one-handers do not (35 stamina to parry a two-hander, while the short sword only costs 7 stamina to parry two-handers)

    You only equip a dagger at all if you’re looking for some kind of silly challenge to spice up your game. If you actually want to do well you’ll steer clear of them entirely.

    Their awful range means they fall down as an offensive weapon and their monumental parry cost means the fall down as a defensive weapon.

    The only reason daggers can be effective at all is because people don’t have experience fighting against them, since players nearly never equip them.
    Same reason you can kill some players with fists v weapons - they flat out just don’t know what’s going on. If they did they’d win easily, but they’re inexperienced at fighting against it so they eat fists to the face.

    Against someone who isn’t inexperienced with fighting against daggers they are inferior in every way to short swords and sabres.

    @dudeface:

    Oh god, hoards of backstabbing MAA. Please, no. Anything but that. D:

    That doesn’t seem like it’d be effective at all.

    Even with a Thursting Dagger overhead backstab, the highest damage a dagger can deal, the damage really is still pretty low.
    Would take 3 consecutive backstabs to down a Knight, and only barely. If he turned around even after 2 backstabs he’d survive the third. There are several MaA weapons capable of 3-shotting Knights to the torso.

    These are daggers we’re talking about, their damage is tiny. A dagger backstab still deals less damage than a Hatchet ffs.



  • Dibbz has it spot on.

    Dagger’s as they are, are a novelty item.

    Give daggers the backstab ability, archers as a class don’t need it, they have ranged as their ‘special’ already.

    This gives daggers a purpose in the game. Even with, say double damage for a backstab I would be tempted to take a Shortsword over them, that is how weak they are.



  • @Toll:

    Dibbz has it spot on.

    Dagger’s as they are, are a novelty item.

    Give daggers the backstab ability, archers as a class don’t need it, they have ranged as their ‘special’ already.

    This gives daggers a purpose in the game. Even with, say double damage for a backstab I would be tempted to take a Shortsword over them, that is how weak they are.

    The idea was to probably make the daggers more favourable in the hands for a Man-at arms by giving Daggers a unique weapon class backstab bonus damage.



  • I agree with the backstabbing bonus as a weapon type bonus, whilst allowing the archer to still have it as well. Would make them a better alternative to the shortsword class.

    That being said, the overwhelming effect of daggers really rewards facehug spam, which is simultaneously nice and irritating. I’m not sure of a way to change that, however.



  • Give Daggers some use as an actual weapon and not a facehugging spam machine and a lot of problems will be solved.

    Right now anyone and their mother can just sprint up into your face and just spam RMB and LMB with these things and there isn’t much you can do about it. They are just so fast it doesn’t matter if they miss or you parry. Coupled with awkward animations means you probably won’t block any of it and just get sliced to death.



  • @Toll:

    Give daggers the backstab ability, archers as a class don’t need it, they have ranged as their ‘special’ already.

    Agree, thats the way to go imo. Would make them a viable choice for MAA finally. Shortsword line for them would rarely be used, but I dont see a way to fix that.



  • Personally, I’ve always thought having daggers be super short range, and shit damage wise, just for the sake of being super fast should not have been the way to take daggers, there’s different ways you can deal with balance, not just one. I’d slow them, and up their damage some more, so they are essentially shorter shortswords with some damage variations (thrusting dagger for example having even more stab damage than a shortsword) and not just shittier shortswords on crack.



  • Eh, I’ve generated success* with them both in team games and in dueling, so I’m not sure if they really need any changing. If anything, they just need to be more consistent with their hits (which is supposedly already there in the beta with +20% extra reach), as they seem to whiff attacks at hugging distance. Though I’ve heard some talk about that actually being caused by swinging your arm right through your opponent for no damage, so we’ll see if that fix pans out.

    They’re mostly useful as an overwhelming weapon because of their speed. But they still require quite a bit of skill to deploy effectively, along with some mind games as well. Anyone with a good head on their shoulders may be able to parry the dagger’s quick strikes regardless of their speed, and anyone that isn’t a rookie could easily (and purposefully) out-range** you. Therefore making use of mind games can help you generate success. Things like Mantimidation, for example. Though not necessarily with the dodge. Get close enough to people and they’ll generally either get scared or try to “predict” your next move, and in both cases that means a random parry that you can punish them for. And sometimes if you wait a bit after a strike instead of comboing, you can get a free hit because your opponent was planning to parry your next strike (which you didn’t make).

    *And not by doing nothing but facehug LMB spamming everyone to death, either. I have developed a bit of a technique with them that, while it does involve the use of slashes (which is mockingly questioned by anyone that knows daggers anyway), LMB is by no means my primary attack.

    **This is less of an issue with Archer (at least for me, because I carry a loaded L-XBow to quickdraw any wankers that try to back up from my knife fight), and exploitative MAA (superdodge trumps footwork) though.



  • I am so glad they are buffing the range on daggers. Just 10 minutes ago I was backpedaling away from an archer, and he just could not touch me with the slashes. Not even sprinting away, just backpedaling. Both of our pings were under 70 as well.



  • I agree with Blaine on this one.



  • @Martin:

    Personally, I’ve always thought having daggers be super short range, and shit damage wise, just for the sake of being super fast should not have been the way to take daggers, there’s different ways you can deal with balance, not just one. I’d slow them, and up their damage some more, so they are essentially shorter shortswords with some damage variations (thrusting dagger for example having even more stab damage than a shortsword) and not just shittier shortswords on crack.

    This is brilliant.



  • Broad Dagger:
    Attack1 Base damage 35>40, Windup 0.35>0.375 and Release 0.3>0.35
    Attack2 Base damage 35>45 Windup 0.35>0.4 and Release 0.3>0.375
    Attack3 Windup 0.3>0.35 and Combo 0.5>0.55

    Hunting Knife
    Attack1 Windup 0.3>0.35 and Release 0.25>0.275
    Attack2 Base damage 40>45, Windup 0.325>0.375 and Release 0.3>0.35
    Attack3 Base damage 30>20

    Thrusting Dagger:
    Attack1 Windup 0.35>0.375 and Release 0.35>0.375
    Attack2 Base damage 30>50 and Windup 0.325>0.375 and Release 0.35>0.325
    Attack3 Base damage 45>40, Combo 0.5>0.55, Recovery 0.45>0.375 and Windup 0.3>0.325

    Those changes are Possible if you want to make Dagger weapons a tad more powerful in exchange for speed. I can’t say that I’m too big fan of this idea but lemme hear your opinions folks.


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