Weapon talk : One-handed maces



  • Maces are the blunt varation of the weapons that are only available as Primaries for Man-at arms, and Secondaries for Knight. They are at medium speed, but has a very high-damage, very useful for taking out high armoured opponents, though may prove to be a tad useless against a very mobile opponent such as Archers & Man-at arms

    Flanged Mace

    ! Flanged Mace
    ! Attack style, Damage, Type, Force, Strenght, Windup, Combo, Release, Recovery, W+R+R and Force.
    ! Attack1 : 64 Blunt F: 20000, 23 = 0.4/0.625/0.4/0.55 = 1.35
    ! Attack2 : 65 Blunt F: 20000, 24 = 0.45/0.6/0.4/0.5 = 1.35
    ! Attack3 : 30 Blunt F: 22500, 15 = 0.35/0.625/0.35/0.5 = 1.2
    ! Parry Strenght : 11
    ! Reach : 26
    ! Unique :
    ! Special :

    Morning Star

    ! Morning Star
    ! Attack style, Damage, Type, Force, Strenght, Windup, Combo, Release, Recovery, W+R+R
    ! Attack1 : 60 PierceBlunt F: 20500, 22 = 0.45/0.7/0.4/0.6 = 1.45
    ! Attack2 : 70 PierceBlunt F: 22500, 25 = 0.5/0.7/0.4/0.65 = 1.55
    ! Attack3 : 40 PierceBlunt F: 22500, 18 = 0.4/0.6/0.4/0.5 = 1.3
    ! Parry Strenght : 11
    ! Reach : 34
    ! Unique :
    ! Special : 2 HTK bodyshot on Vanguards

    Holy Water Sprinkler

    ! Holy Water Sprinkler
    ! Attack style, Damage, Type, Force, Strenght, Windup, Combo, Release, Recovery, W+R+R and Force.
    ! Attack1 : 55 PierceBlunt F: 22500, 20 = 0.35/0.6/0.35/0.5 = 1.25
    ! Attack2 : 60 PierceBlunt F: 22500, 22 = 0.375/0.5/0.35/0.5 = 1.225
    ! Attack3 : 45 PierceBlunt F: 22500, 18 = 0.35/0.7/0.45/0.4 = 1.2
    ! Parry Strenght : 10
    ! Reach : 24
    ! Unique :
    ! Special :
    Balance discussion.
    Flanged Mace could need a slightly damage adjust on either Vertical or Horizontal attack.
    Also Flanged Mace’s Attack3 type needs to change from Blunt>Pierce due to the noticable pointy edge on the weapon model. Then Holy Water Sprinkler will truely become the “Stab” mace. Also never understood the concept with having the Mace stabs being so fast, maybe Holy Water Sprinkler should be excused for that, though Flanged Mace and Morning Star looks pretty heavy to stab so successfully as they do, please share your opinions and thoughts.

    Weapon damage value dedicated for the weapon talk threads can be found here:
    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Ami8d_HZmYHsdDRzc1Byb3ItVWNXSFR1SURHN29TZnc#gid=82

    Weapon talk : URL Threads
    http://www.chivalrythegame.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=14535

    Up to date change suggestions:
    Date: Thu Jun 06, 2013 12:39 am

    ! Flanged Mace:
    ! Attack3 Windup 0.3>0.375 and Release 0.35>0.4.
    !
    ! Holy Water Sprinkler:
    ! Attack3 Windup 0.3>0.35 and Recovery 0.4>0.45



  • Morning Star’s only saving grace vs the Dane Axe is its stab, so taking that away would make the weapon effectively useless. If you compare Dane vs MS, the Dane wins in every single category (windup, combo, recovery, damage, release) and the only weak part is its stab, which still isn’t terrible.

    If the maces do get stab changes, the MS either needs a damage buff or a speed buff. It already has very slightly higher damage vs Knights I believe, but upping that by maybe 5 points per attack would make it a reliable Knight Killer while the Dane Axe would remain the “all-around” answer if facing mixes of every class.

    Flanged Mace is overall just good and HWS’s stab is so fast that you can just purposely miss and then hit them with another one during their parry recovery. Therefore, a recovery time increase is needed because it literally becomes unblockable if someone does that, especially since you can’t just attack them between strikes unless maybe you alt slash with a hatchet.



  • These fucking mace stabs. I also cannot grasp why they are so fast.



  • @dudeface:

    These fucking mace stabs. I also cannot grasp why they are so fast.

    I guess it’s to counteract their low damage. No one would bother using them if they were super slow.



  • Without a fast stab the flanged mace would have only one decent attack: slash. Overhead is slower and does the same damage (although is very slightly faster at comboing and recovery).

    However I think it’s getting nerfed anyway, are the times listed in the OP the Beta times because the stab differs from what’s listed in the spreadsheet.



  • Anyone know why HWS has such slow combo times?



  • @RushSecond:

    Anyone know why HWS has such slow combo times?

    Probably because its poke is ridiculously strong.



  • @RushSecond:

    Anyone know why HWS has such slow combo times?

    After reading the numbers, it appears they have given fast weapons a short windup, though a longer combo-windup to not make it too fast. For example:

    Hatchet:
    Attack2 : 70 CutBlunt = 0.35/0.65/0.4/0.5 = 1.25

    Dane Axe:
    Attack2 : 75 CutBlunt = 0.4/0.625/0.5/0.5 = 1.4

    Those also applies for Holy Water Sprinkler and Morning Star.

    It isn’t much, but its faster.



  • The slow combo time on the Holy Water is one of its main problems.

    It encourages you to only use it for stab-spam cheese, since if you try to combo into overheads and such it loses all of its speed and becomes as slow as a Morning Star but with less range and damage.

    Very poorly designed stats on that weapon.



  • Dont forget that the morningstar can easily ( two torso OH ) kill vanguards. Maybe it’s damage should be a bit lower to only allow it to 2 hits vanguard with one or two hit to the head.



  • Can I just get a clarification as to why the numbers for the flanged mace stab in the OP are different to the spreadsheet?



  • @dnotol:

    Dont forget that the morningstar can easily ( two torso OH ) kill vanguards. Maybe it’s damage should be a bit lower to only allow it to 2 hits vanguard with one or two hit to the head.

    Oh god please no. It needs more damage if anything.

    It’s already the least effective of the Maces due to it being by far the slowest MaA weapon in the game, and its damage is lower than that of an Axe.

    Try using it yourself against a skilled opponent. It’s so risky to use for very little pay off, especially against MaA, Archers and Knights, and since the overhead is the slowest attack you’ll often need to stab/slash anyway, in which case kiss goodbye to your reliable Vanguard 2-shot.

    There’s a reason you don’t see it in competitive play (except maybe for MarkedOne, but he’s kinda crazy and has admitted himself that there isn’t really any reason to use it other than for style and to mess with people’s heads since it’s so underused)

    @Dr:

    Can I just get a clarification as to why the numbers for the flanged mace stab in the OP are different to the spreadsheet?

    Looks like a typo from the copy-pasting of lines to quickly format the data.

    Attack3 : 30 Blunt = 0.45/0.625/0.35/0.5 = 1.15

    The actual windup is 0.3. The total is correctly calculated.



  • @Dibbz:

    …except maybe for MarkedOne, but he’s kinda crazy and has admitted himself…

    We got ourselves a winner signiture here :)

    By the way Dibbz, Dnotol is in our guild too in case you didn’t know. So we play a lot together.

    I would gladly support the nerf if proposed by other people than our guild or the people who I play often, especially vanguards. They obviously can’t see how I am at a disadvantage fighting other maas and how its underused because they see me using it constantly.



  • Morning Star is fine,imho.



  • With alt swing windups being slightly increased in the beta, I think maces will lose a bit of their potency, especially their stab. Although yes it is fast, on its own it is easy to react to, the problem is if someone gets up close, the potential attacks he can use are varied, from different angles, you have to process which kind of attack it is first which eats up those precious brain resources.

    If I knew someone would only stab me with the flanged mace, I’d likely be able to parry 100% of incoming attacks, but with all options including the current model for alt swings, that number is much lower.

    That said, I think the holy sprinker could get a stab windup increase, maybe 0.05 just to test it out first. It is just a bit too fast even on its own, especially for the damage it does.



  • @The:

    With alt swing windups being slightly increased in the beta, I think maces will lose a bit of their potency, especially their stab.

    Can you please elaborate on this argument?



  • I’ve been hoping to get the mace tree to be a bit more distinct from the axe tree, the only current differences being small amounts of speed, and slightly different pokes. Making the mace tree actually effective against the Van and Knight class is also a goal.

    So what I did was slow them down a bit, and increased the damage.
    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/lv? … =drive_web



  • @MarkedOne:

    @The:

    With alt swing windups being slightly increased in the beta, I think maces will lose a bit of their potency, especially their stab.

    Can you please elaborate on this argument?

    I did right after that statement. :P

    If alt swings are a bit less of a concern, it free’s up mental faculties and increases your ability to react a bit faster in determining what kind of attack it will be.

    The reason I get hit by mace stabs is I have to determine if it’s a stab first. If I knew it would always be a stab, it would never hit. It’s speed + uncertainty of if it will be used, or if it will be a slower or differently angled attack.



  • @The:

    I did right after that statement. :P

    If alt swings are a bit less of a concern, it free’s up mental faculties and increases your ability to react a bit faster in determining what kind of attack it will be.

    The reason I get hit by mace stabs is I have to determine if it’s a stab first. If I knew it would always be a stab, it would never hit. It’s speed + uncertainty of if it will be used, or if it will be a slower or differently angled attack.

    You will still need that brain capacity, because you will always need to think about if you parry now (which you have to when a stab is coming) or if you wait, because you are expecting a feint. Parrying late is really not an option with these stabs. These stabs synergize so well with feints. Way too much imho. And I still fail to see why they would have to come at maximum speed (0.3 windup on a very short release…you can’t get faster than that in this game).



  • Try using it yourself against a skilled opponent. It’s so risky to use for very little pay off, especially against MaA, Archers and Knights, and since the overhead is the slowest attack you’ll often need to stab/slash anyway, in which case kiss goodbye to your reliable Vanguard 2-shot.

    That’s why I only talked about Morningstar vs Vanguard.
    It’s annoying enough that the vanguard, suposedly a high armored class, can get two shot by most weapons. Two hitting a vanguard should be the reward for a good aim ( especially with 1h ) It should not be taken as granted imho.


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