This game is a team game.



  • This game isn’t balanced for duels, and it SHOULDN’T be balanced for duels.

    Each class has a defined role, and together they fill niches needed to complete objectives. It’s like trying to balance Dota / League / HoN, or any arena game for 1v1s; it doesn’t work.

    The game was also advertised as a team game in their official launch trailer in October.

    If you want a balanced duel mode, wait for SDK and make / wait for a duel mod.



  • It might be intended as a team game but it’s more a giant duel game right now. There are little differences between classes and niches compared to any other team game I can think of.



  • @Dr.Nick:

    There are little differences between classes and niches compared to any other team game I can think of.

    But the differences are there. And those differences show on a much greater scale at the highest level of play, where even the smallest advantage for a specific situation gets exploited to the highest degree.



  • As I just said the differences are there but they aren’t really big enough to say the game is a team game defined by roles or classes. The only major exception to this that I can see would be archer but their melee works the same as all the other classes.



  • @Dr.Nick:

    It might be intended as a team game but it’s more a giant duel game right now. There are little differences between classes and niches compared to any other team game I can think of.

    Interesting deffinition of a teamgame…

    The difference in class is no reason to call it a teamgame or not. Actually the decision on what to balance it for does that for me.

    There are mmorpgs out there with huge differences between classes, but they are balanced in regards to 1on1, so in groupfights you will just not see half the classes beeing used.

    In chivalry Id much rather see all the classes beeing used in the multiple teammodes than in the one duel mode.



  • @NoVaLombardia:

    This game isn’t balanced for duels, and it SHOULDN’T be balanced for duels.

    If every class was balanced for duels… wouldn’t that make it balanced for team play?



  • “I want to build a better boat to cross the Atlantic Ocean.
    But if you make a plane wouldn’t you get across too ?”

    Well grecau I enjoy the game being thought around team play and balanced around it. You may think that by doing it your way everybody would be happy but I really think that your way would lead to a path of least resistance for the dev ie. making the classes less unique. And I don’t want that. Also they need to focus on bug fixing instead of balance.
    I hope my ideas got across the English barrier lol



  • @Kelrash:

    “I want to build a better boat to cross the Atlantic Ocean.
    But if you make a plane wouldn’t you get across too ?”

    Well grecau I enjoy the game being thought around team play and balanced around it. You may think that by doing it your way everybody would be happy but I really think that your way would lead to a path of least resistance for the dev ie. making the classes less unique. And I don’t want that. Also they need to focus on bug fixing instead of balance.
    I hope my ideas got across the English barrier lol

    I understand the thought process. And it is quite valid. What makes it a little interesting is that at a high level of play the “support archer” can actually dominate quite well. So they are really not that far off in balance in duels.



  • @gregcau:

    If every class was balanced for duels… wouldn’t that make it balanced for team play?

    I’m very sure it would be balanced. Right now we do not have a single weapon which is balanced in duels and op in team fights. And until I see such a case, I will try to keep improving on 1v1 balance.



  • If I read correctly you’re pointing our the fact that archer should be underpowered in duel ? Changing that class in order to do so would affect the team game mode too and it’s still balancing around duel :)



  • Well yes, the Archer has a special role in duels. He is not a melee class. He has to be worse, but I don’t think there is any need to discuss why ;)



  • @gregcau:

    @NoVaLombardia:

    This game isn’t balanced for duels, and it SHOULDN’T be balanced for duels.

    If every class was balanced for duels… wouldn’t that make it balanced for team play?

    That would make it balanced but in-turn would make it extremely simplified. Your idea on balancing is flawed man. You’re basically asking for the TB to make this a one class game. I see little difference from your logic on balancing the game compared to making this a one class game.
    In reality there are only minor issues with the balancing, what it comes down to is match ups.

    A maa’s role in a TO differs from that of a Knight/archer, do you contest that?
    Rhetorical question, you don’t because that’s the reality of this game with classes. It wasn’t meant for 1v1 or balancing would be a larger issue. It was meant for team play, and all though it may not show as much in low level play (pubs), it certainty stands out in higher end play. Classes have a role, and each class has its favorable match up as well as unfavorable ones.



  • @NinjaCub:

    …role, and each class has its favorable match up as well as unfavorable ones.

    Well we still have some pretty fucked up matchups. Knight against MaA (which gets even worse when the Knight is not using a sword) for example. Or Vg against shield Knight.

    These matchups definitely need some improvement. I think teamfights are much more forgiving for imbalances than 1v1, because in team fights you can overcome pretty much anything with tactics and positioning, which do not exist in 1v1. So I still stand by my argument that this game would be really balanced with all 1v1 setups being balanced. Some weapons will of course always be more useful in a team setting - Spear for example, there is no way around that. But tbh I really like where the Spear is at now. Could maybe use some minor tweaks on the faster stab, but that is nothing urgent.



  • @Falc:

    @NinjaCub:

    …role, and each class has its favorable match up as well as unfavorable ones.

    Well we still have some pretty fucked up matchups. Knight against MaA (which gets even worse when the Knight is not using a sword) for example. Or Vg against shield Knight.

    So I still stand by my argument that this game would be really balanced with all 1v1 setups being balanced.

    To a point I agree but like Nova said, this game wasn’t/isn’t developed around 1v1. You can’t alter individual class roles to make them balanced. Just like you can’t balance all the characters in a moba in 1v1. With that said about mobas 1v1’s are still very common. But that community doesn’t complain that a carry loses to a support (you just pick favorable match ups, you wouldn’t go fists as an archer against a spear, right?), because that carry should beat a support. That is just how it is, granted the longer we focus on this issue we’ll have to dive into more complex issues regarding how a moba is balanced. Their are phases, early game, mid game, and late game. Certain characters depending on farm thrive better at certain phases. So it’s hard to relate the two games exactly, clearly. The issues I was trying to correlate is that their are roles, and i’m not saying the match ups themselves are 100% balanced( hard to accomplish this), but I think for the most part it is alright in competitive play. I just feel most of the complaints regarding classes and balancing issues are derived from the lower end play. The players who have invested time into the game have learned and adapted to the game. The game isn’t suppose to adapt to the player, right?

    I don’t think the game should balance individual classes to favor 1v1s because it wasn’t intended for 1v1. It’s a team game, and classes have roles. Clearly the classes that pertain to their roles could use some balancing but I don’t think that should drastically effect their 1v1 potential, it should focus on the team play.
    I just don’t see the logic in attempting to balance the game for one game mode when it would have a huge impact on another. Which you’ve said is more forgiving, meaning that it isn’t as imba?

    I feel their needs to be balancing, just not with the intention to balance 1v1 situations. Could it be done, yeah. It could, but then we would be eliminating the point of having class roles in the game.



  • @NinjaCub:

    To a point I agree but like Nova said, this game wasn’t/isn’t developed around 1v1. You can’t alter individual class roles to make them balanced.

    I have seen that claim many times now. Until a Dev says “this game is not supposed to be balanced around 1v1” I’m not going to believe it, because I do think that this game would be in a way better (balance wise) state if it was balanced around 1v1.

    I don’t think you can compare a game with 20+ classes, which all have very different skills and combinations thereof, to a game with 4 classes (of which only 3 are melee classes) which all have pretty much only 5 attributes: mobility, hp, damage, attackspeed and reach. You could also maybe include the factor “utility”, because Vgs get no shields and MaA get firepots. Archers are pretty much outside of the melee balance imho. They have to be weaker to make up for the fact that they can kill anyone from afar.



  • @Falc:

    I have seen that claim many times now. Until a Dev says “this game is not supposed to be balanced around 1v1” I’m not going to believe it, because I do think that this game would be in a way better (balance wise) state if it was balanced around 1v1.

    Do you even know that at release there was no duel mode?
    Even now its 1 duel mode vs 5 teammodes, jet you think this game is supposed to be 1on1 as its main focus???

    Do you deny that there are stats that are more useful in teammodes? (For example range or dps)
    Cause its those that makes balancing different in team or duel.



  • @Falc:

    I don’t think you can compare a game with 20+ classes, which all have very different skills and combinations thereof, to a game with 4 classes (of which only 3 are melee classes) which all have pretty much only 5 attributes: mobility, hp, damage, attackspeed and reach. You could also maybe include the factor “utility”, because Vgs get no shields and MaA get firepots. Archers are pretty much outside of the melee balance imho. They have to be weaker to make up for the fact that they can kill anyone from afar.

    4 classes each with a massive amount of different loadout options. The weapons make as much difference to how you play as your class choice does. You’re never going to get a spear vg a fair 1v1 against an MaA.



  • @towe: saying 1v1 balance being off is fine in a game where a duel mode exists and duels are popular does not seem smart from the viewpoint of a Dev ;)

    @nabster: well Spear vs MaA is ok imho. We will see how it goes with the new dodge/no combo feints. And you could always buff the Spear’s 1v1 capabilities by buffing the short stab, as in teamfights it is pretty much long stab only.



  • With spear it’s still better than with brandi q_q



  • @Falc:

    @towe: saying 1v1 balance being off is fine in a game where a duel mode exists and duels are popular does not seem smart from the viewpoint of a Dev ;)

    If you look at the amount of time duel mode gets played compared to the amount of time that FFA, LTS, TO, etc gets played. Duel mode doesn’t really breathe much.

    You could also maybe include the factor “utility”, because Vgs get no shields and MaA get firepots. Archers are pretty much outside of the melee balance imho. They have to be weaker to make up for the fact that they can kill anyone from afar.

    These are big differences. The simple fact that knights are that tanky and have a giant shield is a big class difference. The simple fact that MAA can dodge and use firepots is a big class difference. The simple fact that archers get a consistent powerful ranged advantage is a big class difference. The simple fact that vanguards get the biggest reach in the game and smoke pots is a big class difference.

    I mean hell, if you want to balance it for duel mode, then duel mode has to be a separate entity with its own rules and mechanics. They already took out projectiles for the melee classes, for the most part; and that’s the direction they’d have to aim it, without ruining the MORE POPULAR team modes.


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