Weapon talk : One-handed axes



  • One-handed axes are only available as Primaries for Man-at arms, whilst being the Vanguards secondary, seems to be roughly overused by most Man-at arms out there, and always a weapon of choice for the Vanguard secondary. One-handed axes are fast and has a reasonable high damage, though it lacks the stab power.

    Hatchet

    ! Hatchet
    ! Attack style, Damage, Type, Force, Strenght, Windup, Combo, Release, Recovery, W+R+R.
    ! Attack1 : 65 CutBlunt F: 20000, 20 = 0.3/0.625/0.45/0.5 = 1.35
    ! Attack2 : 70 CutBlunt F: 20000, 21 = 0.35/0.65/0.4/0.5 = 1.25
    ! Attack3 : 30 Blunt F: 22500, 10 = 0.35/0.65/0.3/0.5 = 1.15
    ! Parry Strenght : 10
    ! Reach : 18
    ! Unique :
    ! Special :

    War Axe

    ! War Axe
    ! Attack style, Damage, Type, Force, Strenght, Windup, Combo, Release, Recovery and W+R+R
    ! Attack1 : 70 CutBlunt F: 20000, 22 = 0.4/0.6/0.45/0.5 = 1.35
    ! Attack2 : 78 CutBlunt F: 20000, 23 = 0.45/0.6/0.4/0.5 = 1.35
    ! Attack3 : 30 Pierce F: 22500, 15 = 0.35/0.6/0.35/0.5 = 1.2
    ! Parry Strenght : 11
    ! Reach : 23
    ! Unique : Attack3 type Pierce
    ! Special :

    Dane Axe

    ! Dane Axe
    ! Attack style, Damage, Type, Force, Strenght, Windup, Combo, Release, Recovery, W+R+R
    ! Attack1 : 60 CutBlunt F: 22500, 19 = 0.45/0.625/0.5/0.5 = 1.45
    ! Attack2 : 75 CutBlunt F: 25000, 23 = 0.45/0.625/0.5/0.5 = 1.45
    ! Attack3 : 25 Blunt F: 22500, 10 = 0.35/0.625/0.35/0.5 = 1.2
    ! Parry Strenght : 11
    ! Reach : 31
    ! Unique :
    ! Special :
    Balance discussion.
    It appears that the Hatchet is prefered due to its guard-breaking high speed, whilst Dane Axe has the reach and damage. War Axe clearly falls out of favour despite the fact it has the stab damage bonus. What I suggest needs to be changed is:

    Hatchet Attack1 65>60 and Attack2 70>65, the hatchet is fairly fast at the moment, and therefore I believe it should be slightly weaker because of that fact. lowering those value to that damage, might take away its ultimate ability to three HTK a Knight.

    Dane Axe needs a damage nerf on Attack2, possibly change it from 75>70, to make War Axe more favourable with its current damage.

    War Axe In other hand can keep its current stats, though the Attack3 Base damage should be raised from 30>45 to make the pointy edge on the War Axe actually matter!

    Please share your opinions and thoughts.

    Weapon damage value dedicated for the weapon talk threads can be found here:
    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Ami8d_HZmYHsdDRzc1Byb3ItVWNXSFR1SURHN29TZnc#gid=82

    Weapon talk : URL Threads
    http://www.chivalrythegame.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=14535

    Up to date change suggestions:
    Date: Thu Jun 06, 2013 12:35 am

    ! Hatchet:
    ! Attack1 base damage 65>60
    ! Attack3 Windup 0.3>0.35 and Release 0.3>0.35
    !
    ! War Axe:
    ! Attack3 base damage 30>40, Windup 0.3>0.4 and Release 0.3>0.375
    !
    ! Dane Axe:
    ! Attack1 Combo 0.625>0.65 and Release 0.5>0.4
    ! Attack2 Windup 0.4>0.45, Combo 0.625>0.65 and Release 0.5>0.45
    ! Attack3 Windup 0.35>0.375 and Combo 0.625>0.65



  • In my opinion it’d be a speed nerf required for the Dane Axe… I mean 0.4 overhead windup compared to the War Axe’s 0.45 is a bit too fast, considering the Dane Axe is the heaviest one handed axe.

    The War Axe gaining a decent stab would do wonders for making it a viable alternative. Right now most players consider the Hatchet and Dane Axe the only serious choices, but with a decent stab the War Axe could find its place as being a good flexible option.

    As with the Mace-type weapons the axe stabs need to be slowed down to more reasonable windup speeds… maybe 0.35 windup on the Hatchet, 0.375 on the War Axe and 0.4 on the Dane Axe?



  • I also think Dane 0.4 windup is too fast. Damage is fine imho. Windup should really be 0.45.

    I also don’t think you want to nerf the hatchet. With properly blockable attacks(IF we get these…) the hatchet would be fine imho.

    Also do not make the mistake of underestimating the usefulness of the Dane Axe stab. That stab is worth its weight in gold. Super fast long range attack that you can use to gain the advantage? Damn any Bardiche user would kill for a comparable stab. Didn’t hit the head with 2 overheads on that Vg? Np super fast stab comes to save the day ;)
    Do not underestimate that stab. I cannot repeat it often enough.

    If you want to improve the War Axe stab that much, then you need to nerf its speed. We really don’t need another Holy Water stab. Something like 0.425 windup for the stab would then be appropriate.



  • Main problem is the War Axe’s stab is it’s the least useful stab out of all the axes, despite it being the only axe that looks capable of stabbing.

    The Hatchet’s stab is faster and just as strong, making it better for both finishers and interrupts, while the Dane Axe’s stab is negligibly weaker but has the same speed and significantly more range, making it better for interrupts.

    30->45 like Wulfy suggested might be a bit too much, since that’d let you 3-stab Vanguards like the HWS, but I think 30->40 would be good, with a windup of 0.35->0.375.



  • @Dibbz:

    30->45 might be a bit much, but I think 30->40 would be good, with a windup of 0.35->0.375.

    Could work.

    @Dibbz:

    Main problem is the War Axe’s stab is the least useful out of all the axes, despite it being the only axe that looks capable of stabbing.

    Well that is Tb logic. There are weapons which are made for stabbing which are very bad at it (Greatsword comes to mind, stab windup of 0.7…that is the same speed as the Spear…)and then there are heavy weights on a stick (can’t even imagine a stiff weapon which would be harder to stab) whose stabs are up there with the most useful attacks in the game.



  • I have been researching about how much Dane is used on both EU and NA recently by talking to players, to show the fact that it causes an inbalance among the whole maa arsenal. From what I gathered from competitive players and also my experience on competitive scene (8 months), dane axe is the go to weapon for both scenes. Dane is used around 80% on EU which is confirmed by every person I have talked in EU. This usage around %80 on EU also proves that it has some balance issues.

    On the other hand, the situation is not as worse on NA. Dane is still the most used weapon but hatcet is also used commonly. I can’t give any percentages here because I am an EU player.

    I will gather more about this to back it more strongly. But this just shows that dane distrupts the balance on all the maa arsenal.



  • @MarkedOne:

    Dane is still the most used weapon but hathcet is also used commonly.

    Hatchet is only seen more because I made it popular ;)

    But you still see plenty more broadsword and dane-axe users instead. There’s probably just like 3 more hatchet users you ever see nowadays.

    Wolfy’s suggestion for hatchet would still allow them to 3 shot knights, only with less ease. I think 2 overheads and a horizontal would be needed (haven’t done any true calculations)?

    The dane axe’s horizontal is pretty bad and is mostly used for overheads only.

    This is part of the reason I would agree to the dev’s beta suggestion of giving war-axe overhead damage from 78 -> 80. Overhead to knight head would do 50 damage, opening up the possibility of 2 shotting knights, WITHOUT synergizing with any other weapon. The short range makes it very difficult to pull off, as well as you’re almost never going to be in a 1v1 situation to be able to do this consistently. Even with this change, dane axe will still most likely be the most desirable.

    But there’s the rub as well, the axes are meant to be knight killers, as well as maces. The axes are supposed to suffer range for faster speed, whereas the maces are opposite. The question is, how can we balance these without making both weapon classes the same? I also justify the war-axe damage buff because range is so dominate in team games.

    But also, keep in mind – just because something is unpopular, doesn’t mean it is weak. Look at holy-water for example.



  • I mostly see Dane Axe (ab-)users running around, followed by the Hatchet.

    Dane combines great range with ridiculous damage and a fucked up overhead that hits you with the tip of the weapon and causes alot of damage.

    Hatchet is weaker and shorter but very fast.

    To be honest the War Axe seems most balanced to me from those 1h Axes which might be the cause of its very low usage.
    I myself use it mostly as secondary for Vanguard and I’m totally happy with it.

    Also allowing MAA to 2 hit Knigts is imo just plain bullshit and makes Knights useless. Why would I play a class that’s slower than any other and can be 2 hit by a weapon that’s twice as fast as theirs?
    MAA would need to be 1 hit kills then to get a bit of balance in but I don’t really see a point of using 2h weapons anymore when 1h weapons get the job done faster and probably even easier (speaking here about normal servers with mixed ranks, from low to high. Having more issues killing ppl using 2h, than with 1h weapons).



  • @NoVaLombardia:

    Hatchet is only seen more because I made it popular

    Keep it up then, for more variety. Do you have some players mainly using morning?

    Also, does this post tell me that dane is more dominant in NA than I expressed Nova?



  • @MarkedOne:

    @NoVaLombardia:

    Hatchet is only seen more because I made it popular

    Keep it up then, for more variety. Do you have some players mainly using morning?

    Also, does this post tell me that dane is more dominant in NA than I expressed Nova?

    I think I’ve only seen one or two morning star users. One holy-water user. The most used is Dane Axe and Broadsword.



  • I’ve already gone through the possible changes with the retarded Mace stabs, now I think I can carefully come with suggestions how to alter Axe stabs to a reasonable speed.

    Hatchet:
    Windup 0.3>0.35 and Release 0.3>0.35 (0.35/0.65/0.35/0.5 = 1.2)

    War Axe:
    Windup 0.3>0.4 and Release 0.3>0.375(0.4/0.6/0.375/0.5 = 1.275)

    Dane Axe:
    Windup 0.35>0.375 ( 0.375/0.625/0.0.35/0.5 = 1.225)

    I decided to give War Axe a slower speed due to the fact that its Attack3 has a higher base damage than Hatchet and Dane axe, also a type Pierce instead of Blunt.

    Edited:
    Help from: MarkedOne



  • Update with suggestions.

    Hatchet:
    Attack1 base damage 65>60
    Attack3 Windup 0.3>0.35 and Release 0.3>0.35

    War Axe:
    Attack3 base damage 30>40, Windup 0.3>0.4 and Release 0.3>0.375

    Dane Axe:
    Attack1 Combo 0.625>0.65 and Release 0.5>0.4
    Attack2 Windup 0.4>0.45, Combo 0.625>0.65 and Release 0.5>0.45
    Attack3 Windup 0.35>0.375 and Combo 0.625>0.65

    Spreadsheet for these changes
    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Ami8d_HZmYHsdDRzc1Byb3ItVWNXSFR1SURHN29TZnc#gid=82

    Edited, fixed the errors.



  • @wildwulfy:

    Update with suggestions.

    Hatchet:
    Attack1 base damage 65>60, Windup 0.3>0.35 and Release 0.3>0.35.

    War Axe:
    Attack3 base damage 30>40, Windup 0.3>0.4 and Release 0.3>0.375.

    Dane Axe:
    Attack1 Combo 0.625>0.65 and Release 0.5>0.4
    Attack2 Windup 0.4>0.45, Combo 0.625>0.65 and Release 0.5>0.45
    Attack3 Windup 0.35>0.375 and Combo 0.625>0.65

    Spreadsheet for these changes
    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Ami8d_HZmYHsdDRzc1Byb3ItVWNXSFR1SURHN29TZnc#gid=82

    Very good changes, pretty much the changes I would do. I would increase Dane stab to 0.4 windup though (would still be the fastest windup and the fastest to connect attack the Dane has), siply because of its range.

    Hatchet slash/Overhead windups could also do with 0.325 windup maybe, 0.35 could be too slow with it being so short.



  • I would say 0.4 for Dane Axe stabs, 0.375 for War Axe stabs and 0.35 for Hatchet stabs.
    Also War Axe stab damage type from Pierce to PierceBlunt. The spike is fairly short so the blunt metal head of the weapon is guaranteed to strike any target you stab with it.

    I like the Hatchet changes, but for the Dane Axe I’d say Attack1 Release should be 0.45, same as the proposed overhead, rather than all the way down to 0.4.
    I mean knocking 0.1 off the release is a bit much if all you’re doing is adding 0.025 to the combo.

    Edit due to wulfy’s edit



  • @wildwulfy:

    Update with suggestions.

    Hatchet:
    Attack1 base damage 65>60
    Attack3 Windup 0.3>0.35 and Release 0.3>0.35

    War Axe:
    Attack3 base damage 30>40, Windup 0.3>0.4 and Release 0.3>0.375

    Dane Axe:
    Attack1 Combo 0.625>0.65 and Release 0.5>0.4
    Attack2 Windup 0.4>0.45, Combo 0.625>0.65 and Release 0.5>0.45
    Attack3 Windup 0.35>0.375 and Combo 0.625>0.65

    Spreadsheet for these changes
    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Ami8d_HZmYHsdDRzc1Byb3ItVWNXSFR1SURHN29TZnc#gid=82

    Edited, fixed the errors.

    I like this, 'cept I think the dane axe stab should be .4.


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