Weapon talk : Bows



  • Bows is a very popular Primary weapon for the Archers due to the fact that its viable for both Attacking / Defending cause of its medium accuracy, damage and mobilty.

    Longbow

    ! Longbow
    ! Base damage, Type, Draw, Reload, D+R, Projectile speeds and Gravity
    ! Attack1 : 83 PierceBlunt = 1.2/1.2 = 2.4 = 5000-5500 G: 0.4
    ! Attack2 : 75 Cut = 1.2/1.2 = 2.4 = 5000-5500 G: 0.4
    ! Attack3 : 45 Generic = 1.2/1.2 = 2.4 = 5000-5500 G: 0.5
    ! Ammunition1 : 25
    ! Ammunition2 : 25
    ! Ammunition3 : 15
    ! Draw Mobility : 144
    ! Draw Time :
    ! Unique : Three different ammunition types. Bodkin(Attack1), Broadheads(Attack2) and Fire(Attack3)
    ! Special : Has focus ability.

    Shortbow

    ! Shortbow
    ! Base damage, Type, Draw, Reload, D+R, Projectile speeds and Gravity
    ! Attack1 : 62 PierceBlunt = 0.9/1.1 = 2 5000-5500 G: 0.5
    ! Attack2 : 60 Cut = 0.9/1.1 = 2 = 5000-5500 G: 0.5
    ! Attack3 : 45 Generic = 0.9/1.1 = 2 = 4500-4500 G: 0.6
    ! Ammunition1 : 35
    ! Ammunition2 : 35
    ! Ammunition3 : 15
    ! Draw Mobility : 172
    ! Draw Time :
    ! Unique : Three different ammunition types. Bodkin(Attack1), Broadheads(Attack2) and Fire(Attack3)
    ! Special : Has focus ability.

    Warbow

    ! Warbow
    ! Base damage, Type, Draw, Reload, D+R, Projectile speeds and Gravity
    ! Attack1 : 116 PierceBlunt = 1.4/1.4 = 2.8 = 5000-5500 G: 0.35
    ! Attack2 : 100 Cut = 1.4/1.4 = 2.8 = 5000-5500 G: 0.35
    ! Attack3 : 45 Generic = 1.4/1.4 = 2.8 = 6000-65000 G: 0.55
    ! Ammunition1 : 20
    ! Ammunition2 : 20
    ! Ammunition3 : 15
    ! Draw Mobility : 90
    ! Draw Time :
    ! Unique : Three different ammunition types. Bodkin(Attack1), Broadheads(Attack2) and Fire(Attack3)
    ! Special : Has focus ability + Attack2 one Hit to kills on Archer to Body.

    Balance discussion.
    Warbow Projectile speeds 5500-6000>6000-6500 to make the bow more accurate and travel further than the other bows, and increase Draw 1.4>1.5 and reload 1.4>1.5 to make D+R = 3 so that the other bows will have a noticable higher firerate than the Warbow.

    Shortbow needs its Projectile speed nerfed from 5500-6000>5000-5500 to make any difference, and increase Mobility 120>150

    Longbow seems to be pretty good overall.

    Please share your opinions and thoughts.

    Weapon damage value dedicated for the weapon talk threads can be found here:
    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Ami8d_HZmYHsdDRzc1Byb3ItVWNXSFR1SURHN29TZnc#gid=82

    Weapon talk : URL Threads
    http://www.chivalrythegame.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=14535

    Up to date change suggestions:
    Date: None

    ! None



  • hmm it seems quite good.

    I actually believe that the warbow is slow enough as it is, but the bodkin arrows should be a bit nerfed against MAA, shouldn’t deal the same damage as broadhead does, shouldn’t 1hit in the head either.

    I do think that the longbow should 1shot archers in the torso with broadhead arrows though, atm the broadheads are useless while wielding that bow.

    I do agree that you should be more mobile with the shortbow as it’s more or less on the same level as the slings.

    Other than this I believe that the fast kick should be an option while wielding the bow, that’d buy a bit of time to pick up your melee weapon instead. I also think that you should be able to cancel a drawback whenever you want to, it’s annoying when you’re halfway and can’t stop drawing your bow.



  • @Xylvion:

    Other than this I believe that the fast kick should be an option while wielding the bow, that’d buy a bit of time to pick up your melee weapon instead. I also think that you should be able to cancel a drawback whenever you want to, it’s annoying when you’re halfway and can’t stop drawing your bow.

    Archers are already too powerful in close combat. 1. ‘Shotgun’, means waiting for the enemy to attack you and when he stands right infront of you shooting him. Works 95% of the time.
    2. Weapon-change is already really fast.



  • There is a bug with all ranged weapons that no one complains about.

    If ku use the create a game feature you will see what it is.

    It is hat all ranged weapons including throwables always hit the centre line even though the other two lines are spread apart on the crosshairs. When you play singleplayer it works properly.

    And afiNity a disagree with both your statements. Its extremely hard to hit someone at poit blank range unless you have luck or you are up against an idiot. And many noobs are too stupid to change weapons until the last seconds so why it may be fast a good player gets them out early anyway.



  • Afinity is right, the shotgun is way too effective. A good Archer WILL (95%) get that short range(3-10 meters) hit. You can even wait until the enemy attacks, because then his movement will be very predictable(=moving towards you) and you will hit and flinch him.

    But to on the balance: Well I think we all agree the Warbow is the most op weapon in the game, when compared to other ranged choices. Warbow needs a nerf. Either a big speed nerf, or a damage nerf. I think after that we will have to see first whether the Longbow or the Crossbows prove to be more useful (because I honestly don’t know). But I’m no Archer, so maybe they already know what would be the number 2 and 3 choices. The other Archer weapons then need to be buffed imho (Short Bow and Heavy Javelin most likely).



  • I think there should be added a slight stamina drain for the longer you pull the string to slightly wear out Archers who are constantly shooting without taking breaks, it would atleast put them in a fair disadvantage if they go straight from ranged to melee, not to mention the weapon swap no flinch exploit most of the archers are doing intentionally.



  • I feel bad putting wolfy on the Sith side, he seems quite determined for balance in the universe.



  • @gregcau:

    I feel bad putting wolfy on the Sith side, he seems quite determined for balance in the universe.

    Haha, I’ve had the slight impression that the picture was to symolize us “bad guys” on the side of the balance changes. but yeah, I’m pretty much addicted to the weapon values and ect that are in Chivalry, I test / calculate things very often from the spreadsheet. Now, I’m just trying to make some forum posts especially dedicated for a certian weapon group, and to get as good feedback on them as possible.

    We’ll see how thing goes.



  • @wildwulfy:

    @gregcau:

    I feel bad putting wolfy on the Sith side, he seems quite determined for balance in the universe.

    Haha, I’ve had the slight impression that the picture was to symolize us “bad guys” on the side of the balance changes.

    Well someone had to be on the Sith side, so I went with the most argumentative.



  • Bow balance is so messed up right now without even getting to crossbows and javelins.

    A large part of the problem stems from Broadhead arrows on the Warbow. With Bodkin arrows, carefully placed shots are encouraged. You can kill 3/4 classes in the game with only one shot but you have to hit them in the head. That takes much more skill than aiming for the body. With broadheads you are only encouraged to aim for the body. Broadheads also change the role of the Bow from anti-infantry to anti-archer. Rather than having melee be the best counter to an archer you have your bowman being the best anti-archer. Since broadhead arrows on the Warbow are still very good at taking out the other classes too it throws a giant wrench into the crossbow and javelin balance as those classes seem much better designed to be anti-archer.



  • I shall never end my Crusade to get damage and damage types of arrows the same and reworked in other ways that are less consequential; I mean heck, the choice of your arrow is more important than the choice of your (War)bow right now which kind of defeats the purpose of multiple primary weapons, and this is just for starters, Bows need better balancing against the Crossbows.



  • I think it’s a no-brainer that each bow should have a relatively similar Time to kill (HTK*Firing rate) otherwise you will always pick the one with the best Time to kill, unless the firing rates of shortbows become so high that they can keep an opponent flinched for a large proportion of time, but that’s just no fun

    With Warbow with Broadheads and the Longbow with Bodkins have the same HTK to the chest on each class, but the Warbow will 1 shot archers, which more than makes up for the 0.4s extra time per shot

    Comparing the Shortbow with the Warbow, Shortbow can shoot once every 2 seconds, Warbow can shoot every 2.8 seconds, assuming each archer takes X seconds on average to aim (in addition to aiming while drawing). Shortbow now takes 2+X seconds while Warbow is 2.8+X, which further decreases the importance of having a better firing rate. As you can see, if an archer is at a skill level where they take 1 second to aim each shot, Shortbows shoot every 3 seconds, Warbows every 3.8, when Shortbows only do just over half the base damage, they are always the inferior choice

    Whether it be Hits to kill, or damage per second, the Warbow comes out on top, the firing rates need to be much more severely spread out if they are to mean anything



  • There is really only 2 Bow choices.
    Warbow or Shortbow.

    The Longbow is just wasted space.

    I personally favour the shortbow, usually with bodkins (not that it matters much on shortbow).

    That extra speed for shooting over the Warbow is vital if you’re an aggressive archer. Most of my kills as an archer comes from melee. The arrow hit softens them up for the ensuring melee. Since I’m up closer to the enemy, I need to get that shot off asap as they are closing the range on me.

    Using a Warbow is just far too slow for that. The only reason I choose to take a Warbow if I’m going Archer Hunting, 1 shotting archers is excellent.

    Honestly, I really don’t know what to do to make the Longbow have a use that the Warbow or Shortbow doesn’t cover, it is just plain inferior to both the other bows depending on the role you take.

    My thoughts is to just dump the Longbow, drop the range on the shortbow, speed up its firing rate and keep the damage about the same. The Warbow is about right how it is.



  • Actually I prefer the longbow over the shortbow if I’m going to use bodkins, taking down vanguards in 2 body shots or knights in 3 is a lot better than 3 respective 4 bodyshots. I do think that the broadhead arrows on the longbow should one hit kill MAAs in the head though, as the broadheads are currently useless for this bow.



  • The 2 different arrow types dealing different damages and damage types is just godawful to balance to be honest.



  • @Martin:

    The 2 different arrow types dealing different damages and damage types is just godawful to balance to be honest.

    Indeed. 6 Bows (because 3 times 2) and 3 Crossbows are too many weapons to be balanced at the same time while also all fulfilling the very same role: kill people fast. Since ranged weapons have no reach property (but a projectile speed value, which is also pretty much only used to differentiate Crossbows from Bows) only damage per second matters. Or its equivalent in CMW: htk per second. Everybody knows headshots are hard to get, and thus the weapon whith the highest body htk per second wins: the Warbow.

    So we either have to make all weapons the same body htk per second (as in 2 htk with 1 arrow/s, 3 htk with 1.5 arrows/s and 4 htk with 2 arrows/s for example). Headshot kills would also be about the same for about every 2 weapons who are alike, because of no independant damage values. As it would be pretty stupid (imho) to force essentially 9 ranged weapons into that scheme we can only really do one reasonable thing:

    I think we need more variables to get balance in here, for example (brainstorming) the Shortbows speed and damage could be buffed, but its accuracy(which currently is dead accurate with every ranged weapon) reduced. Or we use already existing varibles like the projectile speed. Right now all bows have the same projectile speed, with the Longbow having a slight edge (less than 10%). I do not see projectile speed as that useful for the balancing process however. You can’t create rail guns. Hitting may not be too easy, given the power of the ranged weapons.



  • If stamina drain for drawing and/or holding a bow drawn was added that too could be balanced around (obviously the more damaging bows would have a more tiring draw and shorter possible hold time, this too gives the other ranged weapon classes another leg up on bows).



  • @Helgeran:

    If stamina drain for drawing and/or holding a bow drawn was added that too could be balanced around (obviously the more damaging bows would have a more tiring draw and shorter possible hold time, this too gives the other ranged weapon classes another leg up on bows).

    This is a really good idea. Warbow could be “burst damage” as in after firing a few arrows you have to take a break, while a Shortbow can fire nonstop and a Longbow is somewhere in the middle. I like that idea. Shorter hold time would also reduce the effectivity of the shotgun maneuver.



  • Would be a pretty cool mechanic.

    One of the problems is how easily archers can finish off targets in melee if they’ve been shot coming in. In scrims it seems a lot of the time archers will get most of their kills in melee because the Short Sword is so incredibly good at finishing off wounded targets.

    If it drained stamina to shoot there’d be more reason to choose whether or not to go for a point blank shot, since you’d be going into battle tired if you switch immediately from shooting to melee.

    Would also make it more beneficial to get a flank on an archer, since it’s rare that an archer will be so distracted that they don’t react to the footsteps in time to turn around and switch weapons.
    If it costed some stamina to shoot then an unexpected melee engagement would be able to shift the advantage to the flankers if the fight drains the archer’s stamina.

    Could make crossbow reloads cost a small amount of stamina too, so surprising a crossbowman could have a similar effect (although for obvious reasons they’d be missing less stamina than a bow archer would be)



  • @Dibbz:

    One of the problems is how easily archers can finish off targets in melee if they’ve been shot coming in. In scrims it seems a lot of the time archers will get most of their kills in melee because the Short Sword is so incredibly good at finishing off wounded targets.

    That would be another problem which could also be solved (once more, like so many other problems) with independent damage values. That Warbow no longer does 84 damage to Vg torso(which it has to, otherwise you mess up other htk values) but instead does 50 damage. So shooting a Vg no longer gets him killed by a hit of a fist :/ This would also make Crossbows more viable, they could do “more” damage as in having the same htk of a bow, but put the target on very low health so your team can now easily 1shot it with anything.


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