I swear it's not a troll thread. My POV on some issues.



  • As the title implies I want to discuss my point of view on balance that isn’t on paper, but as it is instead experienced through gameplay. I’ll be writing this while drinking scotch in bed at 8-9 AM so if I get a little hard to follow… I’m sure you’ll understand.

    I believe the best way to begin talking about balance is to discuss the “meta”, as of now I find the combat style that I generally see R40+ players using to be much more mature than the bugs that reigned supreme throughout winter. Now I see many more players than I did previously turning away with swings, intentional missing (you’re welcome radiant), duck, limbo, etc and that’s a really good thing. So we now have players utilizing the character and the weapon instead of the lolwtfinvisibleeverything. That let’s us get down to the basics of what we’re dealing with in terms of weapons.

    I’ll be going in order of severity of imbalance.

    The Quarterstaff is undoubtedly the single worst weapon in the game, toting the lowest damage with range so low that it might actually be a bugged weapon altogether. It has such a slow combo speed given it’s pitiful damage that there doesn’t seem to be a way to play with it other than taking it about a newbie’s head or beating up afk players. You would need to severely outclass the opponent in order to get kills consistently. Coincidentally it can barely preform the techniques that make up the current offensive motions of chivalry’s combat, so there is a very low skill ceiling for the weapon, and very little power anyway.

    This brings me to my next gripe, feinting. The subject of much debate, don’t quote this part and make this a feinting thread. I believe feinting in it’s current incarnation is overpowered. But only for very specific reasons and thus it can be fixed quite easily (for me). The ways to avoid feinting in game right now are to keep your distance and stay aggressive at all times. The latter of course does put you at risk for counterplay, since feinting cannot be predicted and you only have about .2 seconds reaction time if standing face to face it’s not really a mechanic that can be dealt with reasonably. I feel the most threating part of feinting is that you can Swing, feint, altswing. This creates a motion that requires you to (at medium melee range, middle SoW range, 1h range) face 90 degrees and then react to the feint by turning 180 degrees, into what may again be a feint or a swing delay. I usually deal with feints by moving away from the feint, diagonlly away to create larger window of time. This seems to me like a good solution for feint counterplay, it’s independant of your swing/parry so the feint doesn’t get to lock down players who aren’t rocking some pure aggression style. And yet it still allows you to have a skill check to have each player be able to recognize the feint and react otherwise if you mess up, you leave yourself open. The problem with this is that with the feint-altswing (or altswing-feint-swing) you cannot reliably move away from the feint, it can just be swapped to the side you aren’t turning to. So my suggestion for balance would be to have feints only be able to feint into the same attack and MAYBE thrusts. This would promote more deep skillful feints (or feint play, using shallow feints to one’s advantage) while also allowing the mentioned skill check to fight feints. So we would go from Swing-feint-anything, where your opponent is guessing AFTER the feint and having to react to a different attack to Swing-Feint-Swing, so once you see it’s a feint you have that moment (however long for it to be balanced) to say “IT’S A FEINT” then engage a feint defense, so you are working against a feint, not the following attack as much. This mindset comes from the way I play against turn-away attacks, when I see the character turn away at the beginning of the swing I move toward the weapon to squash it, taking out the guess work and making it a skill check of being able to recognize the delay, and making a move to react to it. This leaves the opponent open, unlike current feinting where it simply either resets the priority or lands a hit. There is no reliable downside to feinting unless we pretend that anyone who feints does it off every parry and until they’re gassed. So I hope that made sense to everyone else because I really do believe it’s a great solution for this mechanic.

    Stabs. The far, fast, and (stage) right. One handed in particular, they can be dragged slightly to the side making the target turn left to block the thrust. Onehanded thrusts should be quick OR long, and quick ones shouldn’t be doing so much damage. The mace and axe versions are way too safe as well. When I say safe I mean that they are capable of being thrown out in times when it doesn’t make sense to do a swing. So the enemy looks at you and thinks he has a moment to swing his 2h or slow 1h and he catches a mace thrust that will leave him open for a combo. Similairly they can be thrown out mid combo to squash a counter offensive, it’s much like a kick/interrupt from other games where it’s catching people off guard and making an opening. However the amount of damage that the weapons are capable of doing imbalances this for me. Four mace thrusts that are as quick as anything with decent range can kill any class. And that’s if they are just cheesing the thrust, a good player will mix in a swing to make this an even shorter encounter. My perspective is it should be a fast interrupt or it should do good damage, but only because the swings on these weapons are equally strong, doing in the lighter ones in two swings and heavier ones in three. I’m sure not everyone will agree with me on this but it’s getting a little absurd for me. And before anyone asks again, yes I do thrust with the bearded axe and grand mace the GM especially since it’s a quick twoshot for knights. In all honesty I imagine a onehanded mace that has an upward swing instead of a thrust, it would add a bit of variety and make the game less Mortal Kombat. This seems like a natural solution for weapons that don’t have the war axe’s spike, and again a one handed mace thrusting just looks ridiculous.

    Apparently Turndown swings are being balanced in this patch, but I’ll reserve this spot in case it isn’t.

    Vanman charge attacks all suck. Not sure if they’re being looked at but here’s my quick suggestion since we all know they suck (except for those sweet triple kills with the swords on FFA, you know what I’m talking about). Ok here we go

    Why the fuck are we thrusting with the crowbillhook, bardiche, and halberd. Weapons that have swing damage and isn’t the probable preference to swing? We all already know that vancar charge attacks are nearly impossible to hit on someone that is looking in your general direction or is playing with sound on. So why make it harder by having to land a tiny thrust tracer on the target? Aside from them being floaty and slow as all shit, it’s just a bit sillypants to thrust with such a swing oriented weapon. I’d like to see the polearms get swings (maybe thrust for halberd if that’s what people really want), swords get a diagonal overhand, and spears can stay thrusting. Ideally I’d like to see more of a reason to use these attacks at all. They are useless for any real fight, mainly suicidal, and easy to avoid. If they could break guards/shield walls more effectively I’d be impressed. But right now it’s just quicker to hit f10 if you wanted to respawn.

    I’ll leave this for now, might add more but I doubt anyone is going to read this anyway.

    [attachment=0:22ad02zy]2 (2).jpg[/attachment:22ad02zy]



  • Haha I don’t know why you needed the disclaimer in the title, all of your arguments were very sound. And just about everything you mentioned is being worked on in the beta.

    Also I like your cat :3



  • Dont forget, that Quarterstaff is a two handed weapon, so it takes more stamina to use than other MAA weapons.



  • @Mike_Effing_Jones:

    I believe the best way to begin talking about balance is to discuss the “meta”, – followed by random stuff that has nothing to do with meta.

    Basically in plain sight.

    The Quarterstaff is undoubtedly the single worst weapon in the game,

    I would argue double axe is far worse, for obvious reasons.

    This brings me to my next gripe, feinting;

    in it’s current incarnation is overpowered.

    How is it overpowered if everyone can use it?

    The ways to avoid feinting in game right now are to keep your distance and stay aggressive at all times.

    This is an oxymoron. You aren’t being aggressive if you are keeping your distance.

    Feinting cannot be predicted and you only have about .2 seconds reaction time; cannot be dealt with reasonably.

    Feints CAN be predicted (read); feints CANNOT be reacted to directly. This is fact.

    There are also reasonable ways to deal with feinting, especially in a team-setting. You should be reacting to your enemy’s position in relation to yours, and the way he is moving and setting up his next attack in order to predict or read his feints, thus, I could make the argument that feints can be reacted to indirectly.

    For your reading pleasure, here is one basic safe tactic to use against feints in a team setting

    http://www.chivalrythegame.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=85&t=14144

    Enjoy.



  • @PISKA:

    Dont forget, that Quarterstaff is a two handed weapon, so it takes more stamina to use than other MAA weapons.

    This’ll be changing soon.

    Edit: The stamina cost, that is. We won’t be making a onehanded quarterstaff :P



  • @SlyGoat:

    @PISKA:

    Dont forget, that Quarterstaff is a two handed weapon, so it takes more stamina to use than other MAA weapons.

    This’ll be changing soon.

    Sly no we don’t even have 3handed weapons, why would it need to take that much extra stamina to swing a stick D:



  • @NoVaLombardia:

    @Mike_Effing_Jones:

    I believe the best way to begin talking about balance is to discuss the “meta”, as of now I find the combat style that I generally see R40+ players using to be much more mature than the bugs that reigned supreme throughout winter. Now I see many more players than I did previously turning away with swings, intentional missing (you’re welcome radiant), duck, limbo, etc and that’s a really good thing. So we now have players utilizing the character and the weapon instead of the lolwtfinvisibleeverything.

    Basically in plain sight.

    Please do not troll, cutting out something and then saying it didn’t exist is childish.

    The Quarterstaff is undoubtedly the single worst weapon in the game,

    @NoVaLombardia:

    I would argue double axe is far worse, for obvious reasons.

    Thank you for disagreeing and saying nothing to add to discussion.

    This brings me to my next gripe, feinting;

    in it’s current incarnation is overpowered.

    How is it overpowered if everyone can use it?

    It is overpowered because it’s too versatile, it doesn’t have a balancing choice and can’t be done poorly unless essentially not done at all. Receiving a feint puts you at a disadvantage unless you started swinging at an inappropriate time. It doesn’t add anything fun or interesting to combat either.

    @NoVaLombardia:

    @Mike_Effing_Jones:

    The ways to avoid feinting in game right now are to keep your distance and stay aggressive at all times.

    This is an oxymoron. You aren’t being aggressive if you are keeping your distance.

    Yes it is, the purpose is to point out the strategy for avoiding feints isn’t feasible.

    @NoVaLombardia:

    @Mike_Effing_Jones:

    Feinting cannot be predicted and you only have about .2 seconds reaction time; cannot be dealt with reasonably.

    Feints CAN be predicted (read); feints CANNOT be reacted to directly. This is fact.

    There are also reasonable ways to deal with feinting, especially in a team-setting. You should be reacting to your enemy’s position in relation to yours, and the way he is moving and setting up his next attack in order to predict or read his feints, thus, I could make the argument that feints can be reacted to indirectly.
    You cannot know if he is going to cancel his attack until he finishes his windup or not, you are not clairvoyant (or if you are, no one else is). The windup must finish in order for a feint to be ruled out, and if they turn into the swing you have the windup to block.

    @NoVaLombardia:

    For your reading pleasure, here is one basic safe tactic to use against feints in a team setting

    http://www.chivalrythegame.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=85&t=14144

    Enjoy.

    The enemy’s supposed actions in that strategy are contrived and tailor made to suit it. And even if the enemy was to play directly into your hands, then there is one situation out of all possibilities where feinting was not effective, because it was not performed.



  • I scimmed through your post and first off: I think the sling is the worst weapon, not the quarterstaff. The quarterstaff however does suck and I think needs a slight speed boost. On the feinting subject I think that feinting should be completely removed, as feinting is simply unrealistic as… OK imagine in a real life scenario you are swinging this giant 100lb hammer overhead and you attempt to somehow INSTANTLY stop your attack in a “feint” while swinging full force, this would not happen as you would already have your own momentum behind the weapon. Even something like a sword is going to hurt your arm if you are swinging full-force and try and stop it instantly. Also with dragswinging, jumping, ducking, sidestepping, comboing, etc etc I know that it’s quite easy to get around blocks without having to use feint, so for people that are saying “YOU CAN’T GO THROUGH BLOCKS WITHOUT FEINT!” are simply inexperienced players that don’t know much about the games mechanics, and rely on feint as a crutch instead of learning how to get around blocks. The only real issue with removing feint would be, if you were in a team game and you wanted to cancel an attack so you wouldn’t hit a teammate. So perhaps have a 2 second recovery after using feint meaning you can’t swing for 2 seconds after using feint.(so people know you can’t swing for those next few seconds). With this idea you’d actually have to use SKILL to get around blocks, instead of just relying on feint which is a crutch for bad players. And players that say feint requires skill, are simply the ones that spam it constantly and can’t get around blocks without it.

    TL:DR; feint needs to be removed as it is not needed. If you want to try to argue against that, read my ENTIRE post before responding. Thank you.



  • @Mike_Effing_Jones:

    Please do not troll, cutting out something and then saying it didn’t exist is childish.

    Bringing up “meta” and then explaining tons of stuff that don’t pertain to meta at all doesn’t prove your point. Also to say I said something didn’t exist is also childish, because you are putting words in my mouth.

    Your assumption that R40+ players abused tons of bugs all the time is childish. The moves these players do haven’t really changed, and once again, have nothing to do with meta.

    If you want to contribute to providing sufficient information for the current meta, please visit this thread:

    viewtopic.php?f=84&t=13929&p=134882#p134882

    It is overpowered because it’s too versatile, it doesn’t have a balancing choice and can’t be done poorly unless essentially not done at all.

    This logic is fallible. Every class is capable of doing it, and there are plenty of ways to counter it.
    Also, a feint can definitely be done poorly if done at poor range or without enough windup to intimidate your opponent.

    It doesn’t add anything fun or interesting to combat either.

    This is personal opinion.

    Yes it is [an oxymoron], the purpose is to point out the strategy for avoiding feints isn’t feasible.

    You pointed them out yourself. Play aggressive is one tactic. Keep your distance is another. You simply said BOTH keep your distance and play aggressive at the same time, which is impossible. There are also more ways to combat feinting than that; my basic opener is an example of this.

    You cannot know if he is going to cancel his attack until he finishes his windup or not, you are not clairvoyant (or if you are, no one else is).

    It is an abstract concept, but until you mature enough to understand it, you will never understand it. Mindgames are essentially at the pinnacle of the mountain of skill to accomplish. Everything else is basic: how to control your character, how to time your attacks. These are essentially motor skills.

    Mindgames revolve around varying the degree of these things in order to trick your opponent, and also to limit the amount of options your opponent has.

    As I’ve stated plenty of times before, there are countless multiplayer games that are far more fast paced than this game, with tons more options at one’s disposal. Nobody reacts to animations that play for less than 6 frames at a time; they predict. Yet the best players still consistently win the most; you cannot argue this fact. Justin Wong in Street Fighter is one example that comes to mind.

    The enemy’s supposed actions in that strategy are contrived and tailor made to suit it. And even if the enemy was to play directly into your hands, then there is one situation out of all possibilities where feinting was not effective, because it was not performed.

    As I stated before in this thread, mindgames can be used to limit the amount of options an opponent has. As such, the basic opener in that thread limits the options the opponent has greatly. It is a safe tactic to initiate with against most others.

    The mid-game varies, as I have also stated. It explicitly states that even if enemy 2 feints the first attack, player 2 is free to cover player 1 and vice versa. You cannot say feinting was not effective, because it isn’t being performed, because this tactic is designed to punish feinting in the early game, period.

    @NoVaLombardia:

    And here is a random quote that I myself put so I can separate the previous thought. The following is copy pasted from another thread I posted on.

    Until people stop thinking they are supposed to “react” to a feint, then those people will always think feinting is overpowered.

    Reading > reacting

    And actually, reading and reacting are closely connected.

    Reading is the act of predicting something based on previous knowledge and other cues that the opponent gives off.

    You can react to someone’s footwork; you can learn A LOT about someone’s playstyle in their footwork alone. You can react to someone’s timings and spacings; you can also learn a lot from that. Based on those categories, you can lump a lot of people in groups and their thought patterns.

    Based on these cues you are reacting to, in addition to previous knowledge about the target, you can effectively PREDICT a feint from your opponent. Because of this, I could make the argument that you are indeed reacting to a feint INDIRECTLY.

    It is only the truly skilled and unique players that are in their own category, and cannot be lumped in to a group type of players. These players are adept at switching between styles on the fly and during combat, keeping their opponent guessing. These players are also adept at giving “false cues” to make them predict wrong.

    Furthermore, in team settings, fighting against feints are less intense on the brain. Please visit

    viewtopic.php?f=85&t=14144

    for some tactics that effectively diminish the threat of feinting. The one I posted is probably the most basic and safe tactic to turn to. Please post some of your secrets, too!

    How can something be overpowered, if there are plenty of ways to counter it, and every class has the ability to feint?



  • And here arrives Nova the apologist - here to tell us that everything we’re saying is wrong and that we’re just playing the game wrong and that we have to excuse or ignore all the games faults because he clearly knows better than everyone.



  • @Goden:

    And here arrives Nova the apologist - here to tell us that everything we’re saying is wrong and that we’re just playing the game wrong and that we have to excuse or ignore all the games faults because he clearly knows better than everyone.

    Excuse me for playing the game and striving to be better at it. Feints frustrated me at one point, and now they don’t.

    Unlike you, there are people who strive to be better at the game as it currently is, instead of giving up when something doesn’t go their way, and then pushing their agenda so that they can lower everyone’s level down to theirs.

    Even as this is, my reasoning to keep feints as is has nothing to do with “me believing that I’m better than you”. My stance is that the game is balanced around team play, not duels. There are plenty of easy ways to deal with feinting in team-play and is even a decent sized risk in team-play, because you will always have someone backing you up, including those archers you hate so much.



  • I dont really care to turn this into one of the 100 other “nerf feinting” boards that already exist but ill throw my 2 cents into it that i just think feinting is being used for the wrong reasons. I hardly ever use feinting now because its just so much more effective to use proper footwork to get around blocking. Maybe adding a cool down to it or adding a damage penalty to it might help with it a bit but i personally dont find it a massive issue.

    For the whole balance things aside from a few weapons that combo VERY fast for their size and damage, i feel like the game would benefit a lot more from improving the desync that occurs. I know its near impossible to make it a 1:1 ratio but i think if it was improved a bit this whole “hitting me when i was clearly looking at the weapon and blocking” kind of stuff that constantly goes on would be greatly diminished. Thats just my take on the whole balance thing.



  • @NoVaLombardia:

    @Goden:

    And here arrives Nova the apologist - here to tell us that everything we’re saying is wrong and that we’re just playing the game wrong and that we have to excuse or ignore all the games faults because he clearly knows better than everyone.

    Excuse me for playing the game and striving to be better at it. Feints frustrated me at one point, and now they don’t. L2PNOOB!

    Unlike you, there are people who strive to be better at the game as it currently is, instead of giving up when something doesn’t go their way, and then pushing their agenda so that they can lower everyone’s level down to theirs. L2PSCRUB!

    Even as this is, my reasoning to keep feints as is has nothing to do with “me believing that I’m better than you”. uber-uber-733T!
    My stance is that the game is balanced around clanfa … competitive team play, not duels and certainly not public servers where the majority of actual gameplay happens. There are plenty of easy a few ways to deal with feinting in clanfa … competitive team-play and is even a decent sized risk in clanfa … competitive team-play

    FIXED



  • @King:

    i feel like the game would benefit a lot more from improving the desync that occurs. I know its near impossible to make it a 1:1 ratio but i think if it was improved a bit this whole “hitting me when i was clearly looking at the weapon and blocking” kind of stuff that constantly goes on would be greatly diminished.

    Agree, but probably hard to fix…



  • @NoVaLombardia:

    As I’ve stated plenty of times before, there are countless multiplayer games that are far more fast paced than this game, with tons more options at one’s disposal. Nobody reacts to animations that play for less than 6 frames at a time; they predict. Yet the best players still consistently win the most; you cannot argue this fact. Justin Wong in Street Fighter is one example that comes to mind.

    Yeah and comparing Chivalry to arcade fighting games is the way to go…

    IMHO go play those and leave Chivalry for the players that want to get some kind of melee/fencing/tactical/team oriented gameplay out of it.

    I really hope that Chivalry is going in the direction of more mature tactical team play then twitch based arcade EGO fest for ADHD kids.



  • @BillDoor:

    @NoVaLombardia:

    @Goden:

    And here arrives Nova the apologist - here to tell us that everything we’re saying is wrong and that we’re just playing the game wrong and that we have to excuse or ignore all the games faults because he clearly knows better than everyone.

    Excuse me for playing the game and striving to be better at it. Feints frustrated me at one point, and now they don’t. L2PNOOB!

    Unlike you, there are people who strive to be better at the game as it currently is, instead of giving up when something doesn’t go their way, and then pushing their agenda so that they can lower everyone’s level down to theirs. L2PSCRUB!

    Even as this is, my reasoning to keep feints as is has nothing to do with “me believing that I’m better than you”. uber-uber-733T!
    My stance is that the game is balanced around clanfa … competitive team play, not duels and certainly not public servers where the majority of actual gameplay happens. There are plenty of easy a few ways to deal with feinting in clanfa … competitive team-play and is even a decent sized risk in clanfa … competitive team-play

    FIXED

    The amount of lazy strawman projecting in this post only proves that anti-feinters have no substantive argument.



  • @2maidens1chalice:

    anti-feinters have no substantive argument.

    Having issues with bugs associated with feints doesn’t make one ‘anti-feint’. You really are an idiot.



  • @BillDoor:

    @2maidens1chalice:

    The amount of lazy strawman projecting in this post only proves that anti-feinters have no substantive argument.

    Having issues with bugs associated with feints doesn’t make one ‘anti-feint’. You really are an idiot.

    If, instead of striking through someone else’s post and adding a pointless comment at the end of each paragraph, you produced an actual argument, people might take you more seriously. To which specific bugs are you referring? You really are an idiot.



  • @Josh:

    If, instead of striking through someone else’s post and adding a pointless comment at the end of each paragraph, you produced an actual argument, people might take you more seriously. To which specific bugs are you referring? You really are an idiot.

    Oh, you think I care. That’s cute. :D

    @Mike_Effing_Jones:

    The subject of much debate, don’t … make this a feinting thread.



  • @BillDoor:

    @Josh:

    If, instead of striking through someone else’s post and adding a pointless comment at the end of each paragraph, you produced an actual argument, people might take you more seriously. To which specific bugs are you referring? You really are an idiot.

    Oh, you think I care. That’s cute. :D

    I like to think people care whether they are getting their point across yes


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