Weapon talk : Throwing spears



  • Javelins are the the offensive side of the Archery weaponary, they carry lethal Throwing spears and a buckler shield for projectile protection. Javelineers serve well as a Anti-Archer class, may also be good for flanking with melee units, this is one of the best weapon role for an Archer on attack side of the objective.

    Throwing spears in general:
    Locked to shield : Buckler Shield

    Javelin

    ! Javelin
    ! Base damage, Type, Windup, Release, Reload, W+R+R, Projectile speed and Gravity.
    ! Attack1 : 115 Pierce = 0.6/0.25/0.6 = 1.45 = 3000-3500 G: 0.8
    ! Attack4 : 135 Pierce = 0.6/0.25/0.6 = 1.45 = 3000-3500 G: 0.8
    ! Speed Bonus4 : 1.2
    ! Ammunition : 5
    ! Fact : One hit kills Archers to body, One hit kills Archers, Man-at arms and Vanguards to head.
    ! Attack style, Damage, Type, Force, Windup, Release, Recovery and W+R+R.
    ! Attack2 : 35 Blunt F: 225 = 0.35/0.3/0.5 = 1.15
    ! Attack3 : 60 Pierce F: 200 = 0.425/0.325/0.55 = 1.3
    ! Reach : 28
    ! Fact :

    Short Spear

    ! Short Spear
    ! Base damage, Type, Windup, Release, Reload, W+R+R, Projectile speed and Gravity.
    ! Attack1 : 105 Pierce = 0.5/0.2/0.5 = 1.2 = 3000-3500 G: 0.85
    ! Attack4 : 125 Pierce = 0.5/0.2/0.5 = 1.2 = 3000-3500 G: 0.85
    ! Speed Bonus4 : 1.2
    ! Ammunition :
    ! Fact : One hit kills Archers, Man’at arms and Vanguards to the head.
    ! Attack style, Damage, Type, Force, Windup, Release, Recovery and W+R+R.
    ! Attack2 : 35 Blunt F: 225 = 0.35/0.3/0.5 = 1.15
    ! Attack3 : 50 Pierce F: 200 = 0.4/0.3/0.5 = 1.2
    ! Reach : 24
    ! Fact :

    Heavy Javelin

    ! Heavy Javelin
    ! Base damage, Type, Windup, Release, Reload, W+R+R, Projectile speed and Gravity.
    ! Attack1 : 120 Pierce = 0.65/0.2/0.65 = 1.7 = 2100-3100 G: 0.85
    ! Attack4 : 140 Pierce = 0.65/0.2/0.65 = 1.7 = 2100-3100 G: 0.85
    ! Speed Bonus4 : 1.2
    ! Ammunition : 4
    ! Fact : One hit kills Archers and Man-at arms to body, One hit kills Archers, Man-at arms and Vanguards to head.
    ! Attack style, Damage, Type, Force, Windup, Release, Recovery and W+R+R.
    ! Attack2 : 35 Blunt F: 325 = 0.35/0.3/0.5 = 1.15
    ! Attack3 : 70 Pierce F: 200 = 0.45/0.35/0.6 = 1.4
    ! Reach : 35
    ! Fact :

    Balance discussion.
    Both Short Spear and Javelin seems to have a decent balance, though I’m bit confused why they have the same Projectile speed as they are completely different. One is really fast whilst the other has the body kill on Archer ability. I think Short spear’s Projectile speed should be changed from 3000-3500>3500-4000 to atleast create a difference between all the three Javelins. also the Short spears ammunition count should be raised from 6>8

    Javelin seems pretty alright by the judge of the numbers, has a decent opportunity to one-hit an archer to the body, though the ammunition count should be raised from 5>6

    Heavy Javelin again is very hard Throwing Spear to hit with, deals 120 damage and has a one-hit to body ability to Man-at arms, though I believe if Heavy Javelins are to become a weapon someone might consider to use, its base damage should be raised from 120>125 so that it will have exactly the ability to one-hit a Vanguard to the body, then the heavy javelin might finally be considered a weapon to choose. possibly change the type from Pierce to PierceBlunt to give the Heavy Javelin a one-hit on headshot against Knights. the tip looks pretty heavy afterall.

    Also all shield punch windup should be decreased from 0.35>0.3 so they would finally be useful.

    Change suggestion list:

    Shortspear:
    Ammunition count 6>8 and Projectile speed 3000-3500>3500-4000

    Javelin:
    Ammunition count 5>6

    Heavy Javelin:
    Ammunition count 4>5, base damage 120>125 and type Pierce>PierceBlunt

    Weapon damage value dedicated for the weapon talk threads can be found here:
    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Ami8d_HZmYHsdDRzc1Byb3ItVWNXSFR1SURHN29TZnc#gid=82

    Weapon talk : URL Threads
    http://www.chivalrythegame.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=14535

    Up to date change suggestions:
    Date: None

    ! None



  • Being able to kill vanguards with a single body shot sounds a bit too strong for the heavy javelins, but they are a bit of a weak choice compared to the other two right now. Maybe give it more damage on the stab attack or even a heater shield to replace the buckler when you’re using the heavy javelins.

    And I keep saying that they don’t really need to increase the ammo count on them if they would just fix not being able to pick them back up off the floor and from corpses half of the time. Being able to get ammo from killing another archer who has the javelins equipped would be pretty good as well.



  • The speedchange sounds good, dont know about ammo change but Id be ok with this.

    The 1 hit to vanguards is far too much imo, they cant even get shield to defend against it. Also I dont understand why the heavy jav is underused (if thats a fact). The ability to 1 shot MAA to the body should make it worth, no?

    Also if you do the ammo increase it will be a little buff to heave since they get the most out of it (+25%).

    In general I must say 1 shotting archers arent fun (except for the archers). Often you dont even see an enemy and boom, youre dead. One of the reasons I play this game over shooters is that its not all about who sees whom first.

    If you want to do further changes Id be much more for a change in headshots. If someone is really good and can headshot reliably, what reason is there to go anything but short spear? Id say short spear headshot kills archers, javelins archer and MAA and heavy javelin archers, MAA and vanguards.



  • As Wulfy brought up, the thing with the Heavy Javelin is that hitting ANYTHING with it is complete balls because of how slow the projectile is and its effective range is much smaller than the other two. Missing that throw essentially means you’re dead. So I think one-shotting Vanguards might actually be an interesting change. Of course, I’m a terrible archer and can only speak from my own experience, maybe someone else will tell me I’m wrong and getting the one-shots on the Vanguards is cakewalk.

    Regardless of all this, I think we should probably wait for the Buckler animation changes to hit the beta(I don’t think they’ve changed it for Archers yet) before really going into huge discussion about Throwing Spears. They might indirectly improve them as a whole.



  • I do not think that 1 shotting Vgs to the body is the right way to go for the Heavy Jav. Killing a class that is defenseless against ranged attacks with 1 body shot is not balanced.

    The problem with the Heavy Jav is its low projectile count and that it is way too hard to hit. Just up its projectile speed to Javelin speed and that is all it needs.

    And double all jav ammo until you can pick them up from the ground again.



  • @Falc:

    The problem with the Heavy Jav is its low projectile count and that it is way too hard to hit. Just up its projectile speed to Javelin speed and that is all it needs.

    You up the projectile speed on Javelins in general, then you must also up throwing axe and throwing knife.



  • You up the projectile speed on Javelins in general, then you must also up throwing axe and throwing knife.

    I do not see the connection. Just because both are thrown? If that is your point, then I disagree. What is wrong with a Jav being thrown faster than a throwing axe? I do not see a problem balance wise nor realism wise. And it is not like that these compete in any way. Since the Archer has no access to them.



  • Those values are pretty close already, wouldn’t like to have two weapon types being too simular.



  • Short spears are the best due to their insane fire rate; nothing kills a knight faster at range, and all other classes are brought down to such low hp that one short sword stab will kill. The advantage of javelins OHKO on archer doesn’t help that much, because on most maps it is very difficult to get close enough to kill enemy archers, especially if they are using warbow-broadhead or crossbow and can oneshot you as well from much, much further away. Heavy javelins are a little better, but nailing a good MAA with one is still pretty difficult, as they can use a shield and are so fast that you only realistically get one chance before they close the distance.

    The biggest problem (and one that affects all javelins) is that they are complete garbage in melee. They have short range, they can’t combo, their tracers are inaccurate in first person, and they are really predictable in that you must stab to do appreciable damage. If it’s melee attack is going to be the tiny little jab it is now, it needs to have a lot less recovery or it will continue to be completely outclassed by the secondary weapons.



  • give em tower sheilds!!! thats how the romans did it and in order to make the heavy javs viableish they should do 125 damage so they can 1 shot Vgs to the torso.



  • Bear with me here, this might be kinda crazy but I’ve got a suggestion for implementing sprint-throws as a core throwing spear mechanic.

    Idea:

    Short Spear:
    Attack1 Base damage 105>95, Projectile speed 3000-3500>3100-3600
    Attack4 Base damage 105>115, Release 0.2>0.25, Reload 0.8>0.9, Projectile speed 3000-3500>3300-3900

    Attack1 1HK: Archer/MaA/Vanguard head
    Attack4 1HK: Archer/MaA/Vanguard head, Archer torso

    Javelin:
    Attack1 Base damage 115>105, Release 0.25>0.2
    Attack4 Base damage 115>120, Reload 1>1.1, Projectile speed 3000-3500>3300-3800

    Attack1 1HK: Archer/MaA/Vanguard head
    Attack4 1HK: Archer/MaA/Vanguard head, Archer/MaA torso

    Heavy Javelin:
    Attack1 Base damage 120>115, Projectile speed 2500-3100>2600-3200
    Attack4 Base damage 120>135, Release 0.2>0.25, Reload 1>1.1 Projectile speed 2500-3100>2900-3500

    Attack1 1HK: Archer/MaA/Vanguard head, Archer torso
    Attack4 1HK: Archer/MaA/Vanguard/Knight head, Archer/MaA/Vanguard torso

    Basically sprint-throws would add extra damage and +300 projectile speed, but are slightly slower to recover from due to +0.05 Release and +0.1 Reload attached.

    In order to sprint-throw you should have to be sprinting continuously for, say, 1.5 seconds with the javelin raised and ready to throw. Maybe a slight hand-stance change could indicate it being ready to sprint-throw, similar to the Vanguard sprint attack?



  • Nice write up Wolfy.

    -I think all the javelins need faster throw speed and melee stab attack range should be increased.
    As well as faster recovery for attacks. ( better balance vs dancing)

    -Shield bash(over head) should have alittle more range.

    -Better Projectile pickup. You should be able to pickup the same type of javelin no matter what. ( from other players)

    -buckler just looks funny for how close it is to the body. A new javelineer only shield would be nice. A tiny bit bigger than the buckler…A bronze shield.



  • @LosPepe’s:

    Nice write up Wolfy.

    -I think all the javelins need faster throw speed and melee stab attack range should be increased.
    As well as faster recovery for attacks. ( better balance vs dancing)

    -Shield bash(over head) should have alittle more range.

    -Better Projectile pickup. You should be able to pickup the same type of javelin no matter what. ( from other players)

    -buckler just looks funny for how close it is to the body. A new javelineer only shield would be nice. A tiny bit bigger than the buckler…A bronze shield.

    Agreed



  • Javelins are probably my favorite weapons and for the most part, they are decently well balanced as projectile weapons. My only complaints are against javelin melee in general and short spears.

    Javelin melee is pretty poor and it is better in almost all situations just to break out your secondary weapon. Javelins only have two predictable attacks, which cant be comboed and have poor range and mediocre damage. The shield bash, while my favorite and most used attack, could stand to have more range or a faster recovery because as it is now, Im pretty certain daggers have longer range. Especially with the advent of dancing, javelin melee has become particularly hard given the rather short range of their melee attacks coupled with the long recovery after throwing javelins. Add in the fact that the buckler is perhaps the most useless shield in the game, and we can see that the javelin class is severely handicapped. It is a hybrid melee/ranged class, but that means that javelineers essentially expose themselves to being one shot killed by both melee classes and other archers without any reasonable benefits/advantages.I also don’t know the exact timings, but I believe you can draw your secondary weapon much faster after firing a shot from a bow than you can raise your shield after throwing a javelin, even the short spears.

    Now onto my favorite javelins: the short spears. While they are incredibly powerful, I cannot tell you how frustrating it is to make it past scores of knights, vanguards, maa, bow and xbow archers and land a direct hit to the upper chest of an archer only to have them live and run away or live and then proceed to one shot me. It takes at most two short spears out of six total to kill an archer at short to medium range (one with a headshot); it takes 1 out of 20 body shots with a warbow + broadheads to kill a javelin archer from across the map. I think either a warbow/xbow nerf or increased ammunition count for javelins would be reasonable buffs to javelineers and in particular, to the short spears.

    I understand that javelineers are not supposed to be the quintessential anti-archer, but they are essentially always at the mercy of decent bow/xbow archers. I understand that the buckler is supposed to give you the advantage of being able to close the distance between you and other archers, but it is laughably easy to shoot underneath or around it. There needs to be some balance which entails either nerfing bow archers in some small capacity or slightly increasing the ammunition count of javelin archers and improving javelin melee in general.



  • Shortspear is easily the best throwing spear for 1v1 situations. Simply because of the quick recovery time. The others spears take too long. The shortspear you can shieldbash your opponent, turn away take 2 steps, turn back and throw a spear in their face before they can close the distance. Very powerful, and you can attempt it knowing that if you miss you can recover in time to block their attack. Plus you get more of them.



  • Oh I agree, I use them in that exact manner. However, because javelin melee is so subpar, you end up doing most of your damage by throwing them, and there are only 6. Wading into melee is simply not worth it for javelin archers because they are oneshot by most melee weapons and most ranged weapons.

    Now, Short spears will oneshot every class except for knights with a proper headshot. Most of the time though, you are not going to be landing perfect headshots every time. Let us assume that no damage is done to any enemies by teammates and a decent javelin archer can hit 2 headshots out of 6, which is likely a very generous estimate. That means assuming the opposing classes are not knights, a short spear archer can obtain at most 4 kills (2 headshots, 2 kills each requiring two shot spears) before having to reload by an ammo box. All the other bows have similar or greater damage potential, most taking only 2-3 shots to bring down any opponent and they come with far greater ammunition counts than javelins. Now I understand that the javelin is a hybrid ranged/melee class and theoretically since javelins do not break, you can do much more damage if you reserve one javelin for melee and do not throw it.

    However, there is almost no reason to use javelin melee, and that is the problem. For example, the shortsword is a far more efficient weapon than almost any of the javelins in melee. The Shortsword will kill archers in two shots (two stabs, or stab and an overhead); a Javelin will also kill another archer in two hits. However, javelins can’t be comboed and come at a predictable angle. The shortsword is faster, has similar range (I’ve noticed the stab has ridiculous range, perhaps odd tracers), can feint to parry, and is overall superior.

    My point is only that javelin melee and/or ammunition count has to be improved to buff javelin archers or warbow/xbow archers need to be nerfed. Unless javelin melee is buffed, there is very little reason to take javelins over any bow or xbow. As projectiles, javelin damage potential is outclassed by most bows. As a melee weapon, javelin melee is outclassed by most archer secondaries.



  • I think javelins need to be parry-able (or at least a little easier to if possible)) within a certain close range. I’m tired of playing guys, killing them in melee, and then having one back up and throw an unblockable at me from 6 feet away. I shouldn’t HAVE to be overly aggressive with them to reduce this… in my opinion.

    A jav thrower can easily require me to use a shield when fighting them in melee because he can simply step back a few steps and hit me with an unbloackable. This is a recipe for dueling rage…

    Mid-range is fine, but these close ranges are a problem in my eyes. Maybe not to all, but there’s my opinion.



  • It would be nice if throwing knives, throwing axes and throwing spears could be parried. Not unrealistic either.
    Although they should require very precise aiming in order to pull off the parry, such that highly skilled players can’t guarantee a successful parry every time, but still have the option to try to deflect it instead of trying to duck/dodge.



  • Heavy Javelin 2 hits Vanguard in the torso with it’s normal melee stab.



  • Im against it. Most people I see arent using a shield, so taking a reason away to use one doesnt seem like a good idea.


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