EU meeting about map balance



  • This was a meeting with around 20 people from different clans in EU competitive scene about map balances. Here are the summarized conclusions about maps with TO game mode.

    Darkforest :

    First part
    -Moving first ammo box to the cave.
    -Consider player specific cooldown ((longer than global to prevent single person spamming throwables)) in combination with a global cooldown.

    Sluice Part
    -Slowing down the gears a bit.
    -Holding one side of the sluice gate should stop the gate in in its movement while still saving the progress.

    Assasinate the Family Part
    -Label the caves.
    -Catapults doing damage on caves? Consensus says they shouldn’t. (You can bring down two of the caves in live.)

    Stoneshill:

    First Part
    No problem there

    Second Part

    • Fix the objective complete percentage notification appearing at the chat box.
    • When you’re ramming the gate you should be closer to the ram before you can use it. To prevent people using the ram when they are not even close at the ram. People using it to teleport themselves to the ram.
    • Graphical representation is not syncronized with damaging state of the oils, people get burned without the oil actually going down. Also, if you enter the damaging area after a couple of seconds, even the oils pour down you don’t get any damage. In short, damage should be aligned with the graphical representation of the oil pour.

    King Part

    • Slow down the king a tad, less kiting. The team effort should be the deciding factor instead of the individual kiting skills of the king.
    • ALTERNATE: Increase spawn timers of the defending. (needs testing)

    Battlegrounds(boringgrounds):

    First Part

    • Divide each wheat fields in 4 sections, so 8 parts that need 1 torch each making it harder to burn and making it worth defending.
    • We all agreed that battlegrounds needs a third objective. It revolves too much around the second objective.

    Second Part (Proposal)

    • After the weath fields have been burned with the proposed changes, there should be an objective that revolves around capturing the bridge( KoTh style).
    • So only after the bridge has been captured will the cart be pushable.

    Third part
    To be discussed.

    Hillside:
    We don’t have enough experience on the maps yet because it isn’t being played due to the ballista’s being bugged.
    Fix the ballistas!

    Citadel(shitadel):
    Considered non-competetive map. Not being played in EU competitive wise.
    Fix FPS!



  • You left RK recently.



  • @-Thylacine-:

    You left RK recently.

    spesshull listt



  • What’s wrong with the ballistas on hillside? Push E aim fire. How hard is that?

    And the king kites? Any competitive player should know how to deal with kiting and its one of the easiest things to do. Torn banner did consider stopping you sprinting if you got blocked to stop dancing.

    And on stoneshill many people want to slow down the rate of people spawning to defend the king. Really it depends on how good the teams are on that stage I feel.

    And why slow down the throwable “spam” just on one map? How is it different than other maps. They only have 2-4 things and it takes 2-4 to kill most classes.

    These clan’s need to realise that the competitive side of things is the minority. Though some of their changes aren’t bad ideas. Many could be tested in he beta. Honesty when I heard EU and map balance I thought they were all gonna be extreme bad changes to things. I was wrong.

    A and citidel isn’t a bad map. I play on a 5670 and don’t get FPS issues.its not badly balanced. And I’m seeing many masons win on the malric stage now instead of getting instantly fucked over.



  • Always the trolls first :P Anyways

    @lemonater47:

    What’s wrong with the ballistas on hillside? Push E aim fire. How hard is that?

    What’s wrong with the ballistas?..…

    @lemonater47:

    And the king kites? Any competitive player should know how to deal with kiting and its one of the easiest things to do. Torn banner did consider stopping you sprinting if you got blocked to stop dancing.

    And lemoneter whats with your mentality that “competitive clans should learn to deal x y z” ?

    You should teach all competitive clans how to deal with a very good king kiter while defenders push out. I think we would like to see it get it done by a professional. Don’t you get the argument? This should be a team game and this objective is too focused on king’s individual kiting skills.

    @lemonater47:

    And on stoneshill many people want to slow down the rate of people spawning to defend the king. Really it depends on how good the teams are on that stage I “feel”.

    Then I’ll try my best not to hurt your feelings over all EU competitive arena.

    @lemonater47:

    And why slow down the throwable “spam” just on one map? How is it different than other maps. They only have 2-4 things and it takes 2-4 to kill most classes.

    Yeah the individual cooldown was not only map specific but only that part in any map actually turned the tides on balance so we mentioned that suggestion on that part.

    @lemonater47:

    A and citidel isn’t a bad map. I play on a 5670 and don’t get FPS issues.its not badly balanced.

    Sorry that its quite the opposite which is stated by… You know some clans which apperantly don’t understand the balance as much as you do.

    @lemonater47:

    These clan’s need to realise that the competitive side of things is the minority. Though some of their changes aren’t bad ideas. Many could be tested in he beta. Honesty when I heard EU and map balance I thought they were all gonna be extreme bad changes to things. I was wrong.

    You sound like… Do you even… Nevermind thx for the golden input. :)



  • Many of the issues stated are only issues in competitive play. In public games, the defending team on stonehill never knows to push out and abuse the spawn times to effectively create 2 waves that the enemy team must breach through, and I think if you change the spawn times it’s just going to make the public gameplay even more imbalanced for that map. But go ahead, test it. That’s why it’s a beta right? We’ll see the beta pushed to live in 2 weeks guys. We promise!!

    Torn Banner should just rename their game to Chivalry: Clan Warfare and leave it at that.

    What you gonna do, remove my sig? Remove my post? Delete my account?



  • @MarkedOne:

    Always the trolls first :P Anyways

    @lemonater47:

    What’s wrong with the ballistas on hillside? Push E aim fire. How hard is that?

    What’s wrong with the ballistas?..…

    @lemonater47:

    And the king kites? Any competitive player should know how to deal with kiting and its one of the easiest things to do. Torn banner did consider stopping you sprinting if you got blocked to stop dancing.

    And lemoneter whats with your mentality that “competitive clans should learn to deal x y z” ?

    You should teach all competitive clans how to deal with a very good king kiter while defenders push out. I think we would like to see it get it done by a professional. Don’t you get the argument? This should be a team game and this objective is too focused on king’s individual kiting skills.

    @lemonater47:

    And on stoneshill many people want to slow down the rate of people spawning to defend the king. Really it depends on how good the teams are on that stage I “feel”.

    Then I’ll try my best not to hurt your feelings over all EU competitive arena.

    @lemonater47:

    And why slow down the throwable “spam” just on one map? How is it different than other maps. They only have 2-4 things and it takes 2-4 to kill most classes.

    Yeah the individual cooldown was not only map specific but only that part in any map actually turned the tides on balance so we mentioned that suggestion on that part.

    @lemonater47:

    A and citidel isn’t a bad map. I play on a 5670 and don’t get FPS issues.its not badly balanced.

    Sorry that its quite the opposite which is stated by… You know some clans which apperantly don’t understand the balance as much as you do.

    @lemonater47:

    These clan’s need to realise that the competitive side of things is the minority. Though some of their changes aren’t bad ideas. Many could be tested in he beta. Honesty when I heard EU and map balance I thought they were all gonna be extreme bad changes to things. I was wrong.

    You sound like… Do you even… Nevermind thx for the golden input. :)

    Now you know what the oceanic pub player thinks.



  • @Harbinger:

    What you gonna do, remove my sig? Remove my post? Delete my account?

    If I have to, then yes. Thanks! :)



  • There’s something wrong with the ballistas on hillside? they seem to work just fine o.o

    I do agree a bit with Harbringer though. In my opinion the TO balance shouldn’t revolve around 5v5 games, that’s hardly a team it’s a squad should be called Squad objective then. Then again some of the stuff mentioned are quite interesting, such as the suggestions on darkforest and battlegrounds.
    I don’t think the king needs changing as it depends more or less on the team in pub and not on the king himself.
    Citadel’s a bit messed up while it comes to balance, when it was released it was close to impossoble for agatha to take the first objective, if they did they more or less already won. The only real defence point for mason after the ballistas is the part where you defend the gate, this is totally possible to win. The two objectives in between can be won or lost, but are usually lost even when the better team’s defending. The last part defending Malric, The best tactic here is for the king to kite between the mason spawnpoints using the stairs or the room in the middle, standing in one corner = getting burned to death. so it’s totally possible to win this one as well while playing 12v12 or 16v16.

    I do however understand that you clanpeople want balance but there’s actually more people playing pub than there is doing scrims. I think that if you could change the respawn timers on your server (you might already be able to?) then you could come up with rules on respawn times and such yourself which could probably balance some of the harder maps a bit. I believe more options is better than changing the gameplay for everyone (:



  • @Kimiko:

    @Harbinger:

    What you gonna do, remove my sig? Remove my post? Delete my account?

    If I have to, then yes. Thanks! :)

    New Moderator! Hi, I’m Kimiko~

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6FtV5tZ6Kis



  • @Xylvion:

    There’s something wrong with the ballistas on hillside? they seem to work just fine o.o

    I do agree a bit with Harbringer though. In my opinion the TO balance shouldn’t revolve around 5v5 games, that’s hardly a team it’s a squad should be called Squad objective then. Then again some of the stuff mentioned are quite interesting, such as the suggestions on darkforest and battlegrounds.
    I don’t think the king needs changing as it depends more or less on the team in pub and not on the king himself.
    Citadel’s a bit messed up while it comes to balance, when it was released it was close to impossoble for agatha to take the first objective, if they did they more or less already won. The only real defence point for mason after the ballistas is the part where you defend the gate, this is totally possible to win. The two objectives in between can be won or lost, but are usually lost even when the better team’s defending. The last part defending Malric, The best tactic here is for the king to kite between the mason spawnpoints using the stairs or the room in the middle, standing in one corner = getting burned to death. so it’s totally possible to win this one as well while playing 12v12 or 16v16.

    I do however understand that you clanpeople want balance but there’s actually more people playing pub than there is doing scrims. I think that if you could change the respawn timers on your server (you might already be able to?) then you could come up with rules on respawn times and such yourself which could probably balance some of the harder maps a bit. I believe more options is better than changing the gameplay for everyone (:

    Strong arguments but may I remind you that TB knows it shouldn’t balance the game over 1% of its playerbase. Need proof? Well let me just direct you to the balance council that contains 87.5% clanf-

    :(



  • @Harbinger:

    @Kimiko:

    @Harbinger:

    What you gonna do, remove my sig? Remove my post? Delete my account?

    If I have to, then yes. Thanks! :)

    New Moderator! Hi, I’m Kimiko~

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6FtV5tZ6Kis

    WAIT! I’m new?? >.>



  • @Harbinger:

    New Moderator! Hi, I’m Kimiko~

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6FtV5tZ6Kis

    Lolled my face off.

    Being such a bad mod here and may have to get myself banned again but, Kimi you REALLY should have done a lil vid like that when you joined, complete with that background music too. XDXDXD



  • I didn’t read through everything yet. But Dark Forest and Stoneshill seem perfect to me.

    Like lemonater said about the king thing, some people are just better at that objective compared to others. Also the faster ammo crates on darkforest is a perk on the map, gives more incentive to change up strategies between maps.

    More thoughts later.



  • @KILLBANDS:

    Strong arguments but may I remind you that TB knows it shouldn’t balance the game over 1% of its playerbase. Need proof? Well let me just direct you to the balance council that contains 87.5% clanf-
    :(

    @Xylvion:

    I do agree a bit with Harbringer though. In my opinion the TO balance shouldn’t revolve around 5v5 games, that’s hardly a team it’s a squad should be called Squad objective then….
    I do however understand that you clanpeople want balance but there’s actually more people playing pub than there is doing scrims. I think that if you could change the respawn timers on your server (you might already be able to?) then you could come up with rules on respawn times and such yourself which could probably balance some of the harder maps a bit. I believe more options is better than changing the gameplay for everyone (:

    I understand you point of views but you sound like if these changes were made the public balance would be changed or something… It’s not like public balance will be different with these changes. I mean, even citadel can be balanced on pubs. You guys make it sound like the balance changes proposed has a negative effect pub. I don’t see an argument about it other than games shouldn’t be balanced according to competitive play. Do these changes have any downside to pub play? Any arguments other than a game shouldn’t be balanced around competitive scene?

    • Theres an alternate tag on respawn timers which is an alternate solution that needs to be testing.

    Stop making it like competitive vs fun. It’s not like these changes will really unbalance the pub… Sorry but, most of the people even can’t see the problems on ballista let alone any of these will distrupt their play. There is no harm about these changes at all.

    If you just disagree about the king part thats another story but please not bash the whole thread with unbacked arguments.

    @NoVaLombardia:

    Like lemonater said about the king thing, some people are just better at that objective compared to others. Also the faster ammo crates on darkforest is a perk on the map, gives more incentive to change up strategies between maps.
    More thoughts later.

    Nova don’t get me wrong but as far as I remember when we scrimmed with you guys, you couldn’t get to the king part (sorry if I remember it wrong) where we could’ve shown you how hard it becomes when the other team is effectively pushing out and the king is kiting. I don’t know it would be proper with the ping difference though. It’s not about being better at that objective either. All we say is its depending far more on the individual kiting skill of the king rather than the team work in general.

    The argument about darkforest, relies on being too many dnf’s at the first part which that ammo box plays a good role, on that choke point. It’s mostly either, a team completes all the objectives or gets dnf’ed at that part.



  • that moment you dumbfucks realize all great competitive pc games maps are designed for competitive play (CS,Quake,Dota,SC)



  • @BobT36:

    @Harbinger:

    New Moderator! Hi, I’m Kimiko~

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6FtV5tZ6Kis

    Lolled my face off.

    Being such a bad mod here and may have to get myself banned again but, Kimi you REALLY should have done a lil vid like that when you joined, complete with that background music too. XDXDXD

    Lol… I can still do this. It will be a new series and required of ALL TBS team members and forum moderators. ;) AWESOME RIGHT??



  • @CRUSHED:

    that moment you dumbfucks realize all great competitive pc games maps are designed for competitive play (CS,Quake,Dota,SC)

    Take your time and read his signiture please:
    “Everything i post only reflects my personal opinion and does not represent my clan in any way.”

    He is obviously high right now from what I can hear from TS :D



  • I am honestly in shock that there are regular posters here than do not realise that the ballistas on hillside are broken.

    If there is ever need for a perfect example of why we need good players who know what they’re talking about on any balance discussion then this thread is the one.



  • @NabsterHax:

    I am honestly in shock that there are regular posters here than do not realise that the ballistas on hillside are broken.

    If there is ever need for a perfect example of why we need good players who know what they’re talking about on any balance discussion then this thread is the one.

    I was hesitating to say nabster :)


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