Weapon talk : Polearms



  • Polearms are long and powerful, only available for the Vanguard as their primary. their strength is rely a lot on its advantageous reach.

    Bardiche

    ! Bardiche
    ! Attack style, Damage, Type, Force, Windup, Combo, Release, Recovery and W+R+R.
    ! Attack1 : 80 CutBlunt F: 325 = 0.6/0.75/0.6/0.9 = 2.1
    ! Attack2 : 100 Cut F: 225 = 0.55/0.7/0.6/0.9 = 2.05
    ! Attack3 : 40 Pierce = F: 225 0.5/0.7/0.4/0.7 = 1.7
    ! Reach : 87
    ! Fact : One hit kills Archers and Man-at arms to head.

    Billhook

    ! Billhook
    ! Attack style, Damage, Type, Force, Windup, Combo, Release, Recovery and W+R+R.
    ! Attack1 : 70 CutBlunt F: 325 = 0.55/0.7/0.55/0.65 = 1.75
    ! Attack2 : 75 CutBlunt F: 225 = 0.55/0.7/0.55/0.7 = 1.8
    ! Attack3 : 70 Pierce F: 325 = 0.6/0.7/0.4/0.6 = 1.6
    ! Reach : 79
    ! Fact :

    Halberd

    ! Halberd
    ! Attack style, Damage, Type, Force, Windup, Combo, Release, Recovery and W+R+R.
    ! Attack1 : 65 CutBlunt F: 325 = 0.6/0.75/0.6/0.8 = 2
    ! Attack2 : 85 CutBlunt F: 300 = 0.6/0.75/0.6/0.8 = 2
    ! Attack3 : 75 Pierce F: 330 = 0.75/0.75/0.4/0.7 = 1.85
    ! Reach : 93
    ! Fact :

    Polehammer

    ! Polehammer
    ! Attack style, Damage, Type, Force, Windup, Combo, Release, Recovery and W+R+R.
    ! Attack1 : 80 Blunt F: 225 = 0.625/0.75/0.6/0.8 = 2.025
    ! Attack2 : 105 Blunt F: 225 = 0.625/0.75/0.55/0.85 = 2.025
    ! Attack3 : 72 Pierce F: 225 = 0.65/0.725/0.4/0.75 = 1.8
    ! Reach : 76
    ! Fact :
    Balance discussion.

    Weapon damage value dedicated for the weapon talk threads can be found here:
    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Ami8d_HZmYHsdDRzc1Byb3ItVWNXSFR1SURHN29TZnc#gid=82

    Weapon talk : URL Threads
    http://www.chivalrythegame.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=14535

    Up to date change suggestions:
    Date: Sun Jun 09, 2013 6:52 pm

    ! Bardiche:
    ! Attack1 Windup 0.55>0.6 and Release 0.65>0.6
    ! Attack2 Windup 0.55>0.625, Combo 0.7>0.75 and Recovery 0.9>1
    ! Attack3 Type Pierce>PierceBlunt, Release 0.5>0.475, Combo 0.7>0.65 and Windup 0.65>0.625
    !
    ! Billhook:
    ! Attack1 Release 0.55>0.5
    ! Attack3 Combo 0.7>0.65
    !
    ! Halberd:
    ! Attack1 Combo 0.75>0.7 and Release 0.55
    ! Attack2 Combo 0.75>0.7
    ! Attack3 Wind up 0.75>0.7 and Release 0.4>0.45
    !
    ! Polehammer:
    ! Attack1 Windup 0.625>0.575 and Release 0.6>0.55
    ! Attack1 Base damage 75>80 Windup 0.675>0.625 and Release 0.55>0.6
    ! Attack1 Windup 0.65>0.625 and Release 0.4>0.45



  • I’ve noticed the Halberd desyncs quite often, not sure what the cause.

    Anyone else notice this?



  • Bardiche:
    Attack1 Windup 0.55>0.6 and Release 0.65>0.6
    Attack2 Windup 0.55>0.625, Combo 0.7>0.75 and Recovery 0.9>1
    Attack3 Type Pierce>PierceBlunt, Release 0.5>0.475, Combo 0.7>0.65 and Windup 0.65>0.625

    Billhook:
    Attack1 Release 0.55>0.5
    Attack3 Combo 0.7>0.65

    Halberd:
    Attack1 Combo 0.75>0.7 and Release 0.55
    Attack2 Combo 0.75>0.7
    Attack3 Wind up 0.75>0.7 and Release 0.4>0.45

    Polehammer:
    Attack1 Windup 0.625>0.575 and Release 0.6>0.55
    Attack1 Base damage 75>80 Windup 0.675>0.625 and Release 0.55>0.6
    Attack1 Windup 0.65>0.625 and Release 0.4>0.45

    Polearms in general:
    Attack2 2nd Combo attack should replace the Underhand Vertical attack with a curved vertical overhead from the left side but ensure the swing tracers starts in the upper corner and not vertical in the middle (A way to prevent the accelerated overhead)

    Attack2 Attack should have have it moved from the upper right corner, and not vertical in the middle (As mentioned previously to prevent accelerated overheads)



  • Polehammer buffs would be much appreciated. Currently it’s basically a shorter, slower and less damaging version of the Halberd. Its stab is okay, but its horizontal and overhead are very underpowered in comparison to the Halberd.

    I’d say its overhead damage should be buffed to 85 to allow it to 2-shot Knights to the torso, since it is the only blunt (i.e. anti-Knight) weapon the Vangaurd has.

    I mean Bardiche overheads 2-shot Knights to the torso, and the Bardiche is faster than the Polehammer! The Bariche isn’t even blunt yet it’s better suited to killing Knights.

    As for the polearm alternate overhead / combo overhead animation I agree, it really should be redone as a high-to-low overhead swing starting in the top left.

    The spinning under-slung low-to-high attack looks cool, but at the same time it also looks silly, is unrealistic, ineffective and has less reach than the regular overhead.



  • @wildwulfy:

    Bardiche:
    Attack1 Windup 0.55>0.6 and Release 0.65>0.6
    Attack2 Windup 0.55>0.625, Combo 0.7>0.75 and Recovery 0.9>1
    Attack3 Type Pierce>PierceBlunt, Release 0.5>0.475, Combo 0.7>0.65 and Windup 0.65>0.625

    Billhook:
    Attack1 Release 0.55>0.5
    Attack3 Combo 0.7>0.65

    Halberd:
    Attack1 Combo 0.75>0.7 and Release 0.55
    Attack2 Combo 0.75>0.7
    Attack3 Wind up 0.75>0.7 and Release 0.4>0.45

    Polehammer:
    Attack1 Windup 0.625>0.575 and Release 0.6>0.55
    Attack1 Base damage 75>80 Windup 0.675>0.625 and Release 0.55>0.6
    Attack1 Windup 0.65>0.625 and Release 0.4>0.45

    Polearms in general:
    Attack2 2nd Combo attack should replace the Underhand Vertical attack with a curved vertical overhead from the left side but ensure the swing tracers starts in the upper corner and not vertical in the middle (A way to prevent the accelerated overhead)

    Attack2 Attack should have have it moved from the upper right corner, and not vertical in the middle (As mentioned previously to prevent accelerated overheads)

    The Bardiche certainly does not require a nerf. I have played with that weapon for a long time and believe me, I dropped it for a reason. That horrible overhead combo REALLY hurts you in team games. You simply can’t feint every attack or use slash. The stab is so bad in live it is completely useless. In the beta the pommel hit bug is fixed (according to TB), so that alone is a nerf to the Bardiche. Its hitbox is really strange, while it is easy to hit someone, it is very hard to hit the head, especially Archer heads(I’m talking about the overhead). You need that headshot on Archers and MaA but most of the time you are not going to get it. You pick the Bardiche for one reason: it is good at killing Knights. But not so good at killing other classes. For that very reason it is barely used in the competitive scene (EU). I can not think of even 1(!!!) active EU competitive Vg that uses the Bardiche.

    Billhook is the most underrated weapon in this game. But those very small buffs are ok.

    The Halberd is most likely the best Polearm the Vg has. It is used frequently in competitive play and is still a very good choice. Could be the best Vg weapon right now. This weapon does NOT need a buff. Especially not on its stab, which is its best attack. Combo times are also fine.

    TB already implemented a good buff to the Polehammer in the current beta. Let’s see how that goes. Damage is the way to buff the Polehammer, not speed (atleast not much).



  • @wildwulfy:

    Attack1 Windup 0.55>0.6 and Release 0.65>0.6

    Before you do all this Attack1 buffs, keep in mind that swings should not be on par dmg and speed wise, otherwise they will become the best attack for it is easy to land and best to get past defense.



  • @Towe:

    @wildwulfy:

    Attack1 Windup 0.55>0.6 and Release 0.65>0.6

    Before you do all this Attack1 buffs, keep in mind that swings should not be on par dmg and speed wise, otherwise they will become the best attack for it is easy to land and best to get past defense.

    This is a straight nerf. Nothing else. Higher windup is ALWAYS bad and lower release is bad in this case because it gets much harder to delay attacks while the speed gain is negligible.



  • Lol youre right, I quoted the wrong thing, since this was the only att1 that was nerfed.

    I ment all the other att1 changes especially polehammer.



  • Polearms suffer most from not quite optimal mechanical decisions namely the fact that damage hitboxes deal the same damage everywhere. It makes Polearms strangely effective if your enemy manages to get close even though you got a speed disadvantage. Still you can take out an enemy using a short and fast weapon (like a dagger) by block one attack and then performing a lookdown overhead. What looks like a weak strike with a wooden stick deals the same damage as dropping that badass blade on somebody from a distance. And its faster. It favors a playstyle that feels just wrong with this weapons (and would BE wrong in reality).

    Helberd and Billhook are versatile and especially strong in loose group fighting where you can use both range and different attacks without worrying about speed too much. They might steal the Spears show but thats more a Spear problem (without the things mentioned above Spears would be ridiciously underpowered).

    The Bardiche is more like an oversized axe that can crush almost everything but suffers from low speed and a weak stab.

    The Polehammer looks nice but is… not. It got the Bardiches speed and the Helberds damage with less reach than both. It just does not dish out enough damage. The speed doesn’t feels wrong but the fact that these supposedly powerful attacks are not damaging enough does. It could need a damage increase putting it more in line with the shorter Poleaxe. Right now we got a weak Helberd with slightly more powerful slash attack.



  • The Polehammer’s flat force of 225 is a little uninspired. I always thought it didn’t hit quite right, like the overhead was weak and the thrust was vicious. Better values maybe… 250, 300, 175? Thrusting with a hammer like that takes a lot more upper body and arm strength than swinging it around does; yet due to the fluid motions and long handle, the user can swing it around with frightening speed.



  • @Seraephus:

    The Polehammer’s flat force of 225 is a little uninspired. I always thought it didn’t hit quite right, like the overhead was weak and the thrust was vicious. Better values maybe… 250, 300, 175? Thrusting with a hammer like that takes a lot more upper body and arm strength than swinging it around does; yet due to the fluid motions and long handle, the user can swing it around with frightening speed.

    Every CU1 weapon has a knockback of 225 because it was just copy and pasted, I assume, by the people that took over balance after release.



  • The Bardiche seems very weak now. basically a scaled down Zweihänder with a little more reach but without a strong stabbing attack. There is almost no situation you would pick it as it was ripped out of his niche (a giant axe dealing cutting damage with overhead - really?) and got nothing in return (aside a very wrong feeling whenever you see it somewhere). It was definitely in a better shape before.

    Because of this Polearm balance hasn’t changed much: Polehammer and Bardiche switched places the rest is still the same. I strongly recommend reverting this damage type change as soon as possible.



  • Evil Minion,

    They chose to tone down the Bardiche’s attack2 damage by changing the type from CutBlunt>Cut.
    By doing so it took away the guaranteed two-hits to kill against Knights, The Polehammer was buffed in a way that it was given the ultimate ability to two-shot a Knight. So Bardiche is more powerful versus light armoured classes, as it still kills a Man-at arms at headshots where the Polehammer doesn’t.

    I was questioning how Torn Banner would solve this dilemma between Polehammer and Bardiche having same HtK’s on Knight without severly fucking up either one of them, the way they or the balance council chose to fix it was perfect.



  • double post >:(



  • @wildwulfy:

    Evil Minion,

    They chose to tone down the Bardiche’s attack2 damage by changing the type from CutBlunt>Cut.
    By doing so it took away the guaranteed two-hits to kill against Knights, The Polehammer was buffed in a way that it was given the ultimate ability to two-shot a Knight. So Bardiche is more powerful versus light armoured classes, as it still kills a Man-at arms at headshots where the Polehammer doesn’t.

    I was questioning how Torn Banner would solve this dilemma between Polehammer and Bardiche having same HtK’s on Knight without severly fucking up either one of them, the way they or the balance council chose to fix it was perfect.

    Exactly, that’s what I was tryin’ to explain to ya’ll in the beta on NoVa’s Bardiche “nerf” topic.



  • @Jstorm:

    double post >:(

    next to [*EDIT] that appears if it’s the newest post on the thread).

    Nobody would have ever known ^^



  • @Dibbz:

    @Jstorm:

    double post >:(

    next to [*EDIT] that appears if it’s the newest post on the thread).

    Nobody would have ever known ^^

    Impossible to do after a certain time or reply after pose I think.


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