Weapon talk : Flails



  • A Ball and Chain variation of the maces has a decent blunt damage and a fast combo timer.

    Flails in general:
    Locked to shield : Buckler Shield

    Spiked Flail

    ! Spiked Flail
    ! Attack style, Damage, Type, Force, Windup, Combo, Release, Recovery and W+R+R.
    ! Attack1 : 60 PierceBlunt F: 225 = 0.5/0.65/0.5/0.65 = 1.65
    ! Attack2 : 70 PierceBlunt F: 225 = 0.65/0.65/0.4/0.65 = 1.60
    ! Attack3 : 35 Blunt F: 225 = 0.45/0.65/0.35/0.525 = 1.325
    ! Reach :
    ! Fact :

    Heavy Flail

    ! Heavy Flail
    ! Attack style, Damage, Type, Force, Windup, Combo, Release, Recovery and W+R+R.
    ! Attack1 : 70 Blunt F: 225 = 0.55/0.7/0.55/0.7 = 1.8
    ! Attack2 : 75 Blunt F: 225 = 0.6/0.7/0.45/0.7 = 1.75
    ! Attack3 : 35 Blunt F: 225 = 0.45/0.7/0.35/0.525 = 1.325
    ! Reach :
    ! Fact :
    Balance discussion.

    Weapon damage value dedicated for the weapon talk threads can be found here:
    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Ami8d_HZmYHsdDRzc1Byb3ItVWNXSFR1SURHN29TZnc#gid=82

    Weapon talk : URL Threads
    http://www.chivalrythegame.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=14535

    Up to date change suggestions:
    Date: None

    ! None



  • Right now the spiked mace has about the same damage as the hws but no speed and no stab. The spiked mace needs either morning star level damage+more speed or ALOT more speed.

    The heavy flail right now is basically a flanged mace with no speed. To buff the heavy flail it should either be warhammer damage+broadsword level reach(to compromise for the terrible buckler and because is is alot slower than a warhammer) or ALOT more speed.

    Another cool idea is if you could give all the flails 0.5 combo times for the overheads and slashes it’s as if you’re using the centripetal force to make it easier to combo(like nunchuks).

    EDIT: Also, make the hit tracers go strait so there’s such a thing as centripetal force in this game.



  • Flails honestly should have fast horizontal/overhead combos, but relatively slow windups.

    Also maybe reduce the stamina cost for swinging at thin air if you are comboing into another swing.
    If you go into recovery then full stamina cost for missing, but as long as you avoid recovery by keeping the combo going make the stamina penalty for missing, say, 50% of normal.

    Flails are pretty weak, but we could give them a niche revolving around keeping the ball of death spinning when in combat.

    Spiked Flail:
    Attack1 Windup 0.55>0.6 , Combo 0.65>0.55
    Attack2 Windup 0.55>0.575 , Combo 0.65>0.55

    Heavy Flail:
    Attack1 Windup 0.6>0.65 , Combo 0.7>0.575
    Attack2 Base damage 70>75, Windup 0.6>0.625 , Combo 0.7>0.575

    Also Heavy Flail buffs so there’s a point to using it in comparison to the regular flail.



  • The tier 1 flail is OK in duels. Yes the combo speed is a little slow but this is meant to be as it is the nature of the weapon. Due to the alt attack mechanic you can’t correctly fix the flails second windup during comb. Otherwise when players execute the alt attack it will be superior to the stand attack. TB need to fix the alt attack problem.

    It is the buckler that makes the flail viable BTW…



  • @Dibbz:

    Flails honestly should have fast horizontal/overhead combos, but relatively slow windups.

    Sounds interesting, but I dont think its realistic. Never used a flail, but to me it seems comboing would be more difficult than with normal weapons. Not saying Im against it, but would be interesting what people would say who actually used such a thing.

    For me the flails niche should be a hard to parry weapon. Tracers already have randomness, but maybe not enough, on top of that how about a random swing delay?

    Speed and dmg subpar, almost impossible to parry and pretty hard to block. That would feel like a realistic implementation to me.



  • Check the link in my signature, I think the overall design and animation of the flail needs to be re-thought.



  • @Towe:

    @Dibbz:

    Flails honestly should have fast horizontal/overhead combos, but relatively slow windups.

    Sounds interesting, but I dont think its realistic. Never used a flail, but to me it seems comboing would be more difficult than with normal weapons. Not saying Im against it, but would be interesting what people would say who actually used such a thing…

    What he’s saying is that once it has momentum to allow it to keep momentum, but gaining that momentum should be the hard part, and that actually makes sense to me. I can totally see what the suggestion is about and I think it could give the flail a possible redeeming quality which it so sorely lacks at the moment.

    So here’s an idea:
    EDIT: Saw Dibz posted something similar, sorry didn’t get that sentence until I wrote all of this. I personally think it’s a good idea.

    I was playing a guy who used the flail the other day- he just kept comboing and comboing until his stamina died. Honestly when I first heard of the flail I thought it was going to be tailored to do this, but it isn’t. It works decently and is believable enough, but you can only get so many swings out of it.

    What if instead of faster horiztonal and vertical slashes it took significantly less stamina for each comboed swing (since it’s more or less representative of spinning a flail around now that it’s got momentum). To me this sounds like it would give the flail a slightly different “feel” than other weapons (I think it really needs that anyway) and would still base it within the games overarching skill set (footwork, timing, and surrounding awareness). It would just be different in that it would be the ONLY weapon in the game designed to miss for a good amount of its swings (hence the stamina reduction cost on combo).

    I think it would also be a very easy option to implement, rather than creating an entirely new weapon mechanic for one of the game’s less-popular weapons.

    This to me seems like a realistic first re-working of the flail, but it might just as well be a bad idea. Keep in mind the flail wasn’t about approaching your enemy, waiting for that perfect moment, and swinging it. It was about continually swinging it and misdirection.

    TL;DR
    Give the flail a stamina reduction cost for each comboed swing to allow the flail to continually move and act more like a flail. Less stamina means you can swing it more without hitting. It would be the only weapon that is intended to miss for a good amount of swings and this would finally let the flail feel “different” in some ways than other weapons (more like a flail, I think).

    Downsides
    It would be the new TK monster. I think that any option to make the flail more like a flail is going to get you that though.

    It might become easy to time your parries against the flail. Possibly removing the useless shield bash and having it be a “stall” swing (a “spin” swing designed to not hit but keep momentum going) might help with that, but with all the people crying “feint” I’m not sure. Maybe if it cost normal stamina?



  • My thoughts on the Flail from one of the other sections:

    I used to love the Flail back in AoC. How I used to play it back then was in a defensive, tanky counter-attack style, and it was very good at that, especially with the powerful overheads. Sweeps were ok at dealing with someone who was trying to run rings around you, but not too effective.

    I’d charge up to someone and absorb their attack with my (HEATER) Shield and heavy knight armour, then whomp them with a flail overhead each time, (unless I got caught off-guard or forced into a position where I’m just defending and unable to attack due to the long recovery times).

    Doesn’t really feel that way in Chiv, I don’t really feel as if I currently have any advantage over someone using a sword, but still have a lot of the downsides of using a flail. Those downsides (at least perceived) such as recovery times, ranges etc don’t seem to be worth it when I could pick up a sword instead and fight in the same way.

    What is TBS vision for the flail weapon and playstyle? I’d love it if it was like before, a defensive, adaptive counter-attack fighting style. I feel at the moment it plays too similar to the other weapons, but one that simply just feels worse. I’ve currently had no desire to play it in Chiv.

    This is how I’d imagine it:

    Perks:

    • Short windups (nice and quick to get in a counter-attack)

    • Good defence due to the shield and Knight armour. (Though I still pray one day he’ll have his Heater back!)

    • Unpredictable in that it is hard to see where an attack is coming from and where it will hit.

    • Useful for getting around shields (different to how swords work which is a straight line slash)

    • Medium-high damage, especially with a lot of attacks being naturally high-hitting at the player’s upper torso and head, rather than lower body like most sword slashes.

    • Heavy flail should be good against Vanguard & Knight. Light flail (with the spiky ball) slightly better against Archers and MAA instead. The weapon heads look suited to this and it would give a nice variety between those variants, as well as speed differences of course.

    • The (although short) range of the weapon, due to the head of the flail being separate to the shaft, would be a longer ranged, less straight-on style attack version of the hammer. More suited for curved sweeps around shields, and precise, high-damage downward hits on someone’s head, rather than just beating at their body.

    Downsides:

    • Long recovery (attacks are very committed, if they don’t succeed, you’ve fucked up. Promotes the careful counter-attack playstyle rather than outright aggression.)

    • Good defence but that means less mobility, flexibility and combination speed of strikes. The flail user may be able to make single, quick viper style counter-strikes, but can’t exactly go on an offensive chain of destruction like other classes.

    • Tough for yourself to judge and hit with attacks (that as mentioned due to the commitment, that can be a problem). You can’t just swing wildly and hope to hit, and not suffer consequences. Attacks must be precise and carefully calculated.

    • Not really quick enough to fend off fast / light attackers. Although quick to absorb a hit and counter, this wouldn’t work well with someone who can immediately attack again with a flurry of quick strikes, which would force you into only defending.)

    • Inability to put away the shield and go attack-focused. Visibility and mobility impaired too.

    • Short-range, must be able to get up to a person and lock them down in combat with you to fight them effectively. Can’t fight ranged or mobile classes, or defensively by keeping someone at range, you must keep them IN range instead.

    This would balls down to being a strong, tanky class to take someone on one on one, but isn’t very capable to offensively fight multiple opponents (though has good ability to weather multiple attackers for a time if playing pure defensively).

    The main strength would be in the ability to take on a strong / aggressive class (such as Sword / Mace / Hammer / Axe Knights and Sword Vanguards), lock them into combat, neutralise their strengths (strong, aggressive, damaging attacks), weather their attacks, and defeat them with strong, precise, hard to defend, counter attacks.

    The flipside would be the inability to effectively fight ranged classes and mobile classes, as well as those who are effective of keeping the flailman at bay (spears / polearms), again the only option here is to go purely defensive, or to use secondary weapons.

    Oh and do something with the “Shield slap”, at least make it a neck-chop or something that better fits the class. It feels too much like an Archer style desperation attack. A quick, short-ranged interrupt is still suitable for this class though, especially to cut someone’s chain of attacks short, and give an opening for your own strong counter with a normal flail attack.



  • Yes, Flails feels badass right now! I enjoy crushing heads with them as they are finally useful (before you were basically fighting with the Buckler holding a useless chain in your other hand).

    However a closer look at the numbers reveals that they are nothing special: Morning Star and Warhammer are still slightly better and give your more freedom in your shield choices (= better shields especially against Archers).

    So while Flails are fun to use and quite powerful they are still not completely viable. But thats more a niche finding thing: another straight buff would probably overbuff them pretty hard.

    Almost there!



  • @BobT36:

    My thoughts on the Flail from one of the other sections:

    Short windups
    Unpredictable in that it is hard to see where an attack is coming from and where it will hit.
    Useful for getting around shields
    Medium-high damage
    longer ranged version of the hammer. More suited for curved sweeps around shields, and precise, high-damage downward hits on someone’s head, rather than just beating at their body.

    Long recovery (attacks are very committed, if they don’t succeed, you’ve fucked up. Promotes the careful counter-attack playstyle rather than outright aggression.)
    Good defence but that means less mobility, flexibility and combination speed of strikes. The flail user may be able to make single, quick viper style counter-strikes, but can’t exactly go on an offensive chain of destruction like other classes.
    Tough for yourself to judge and hit with attacks (that as mentioned due to the commitment, that can be a problem). You can’t just swing wildly and hope to hit, and not suffer consequences. Attacks must be precise and carefully calculated.

    Are you crazy?

    This would be easily the best weapon in the game post patch. EVERYBODY wants a ton of damage and speed.

    Nobody gives a shit about recovery (because you can parry during it) or combos (because their value has been drastically reduced due to the new patch.) Nobody can go on an “offensive chain of destruction” anymore. I barely have enough stamina to make this post.

    I hope nobody from TB listens to this. Is it really all that odd that a ball chained to a stick would be a wierd and ultimately less effective weapon than a sword or a spear?



  • You continually prove you know absolutely nothing about weapon balance. I garuntee even with those buffs, no competitive players will use the flail and it’s for the exact same reason there’s only one competitive player in North America that uses the warhammer. It’s really fast and powerful but that doesn’t make it the best weapon at all; It’s terrible reach is what keeps it from being used.



  • @Jstorm:

    You continually prove you know absolutely nothing about weapon balance. I garuntee even with those buffs, no competitive players will use the flail and it’s for the exact same reason there’s only one competitive player in North America that uses the warhammer. It’s really fast and powerful but that doesn’t make it the best weapon at all; It’s terrible reach is what keeps it from being used.

    He said he wanted it to have a longer reach than a warhammer and for it to counter VGs and Knights with Swords.

    How many “competitive” players are there in North America? There are like 5 games up on youtube altogether. Furthermore, if you are so hot on these balance changes, why the hell do you have the ProMod thing in your signature, implying that you want to go back to pre-patch Chiv?



  • @SSJ_EIGHTBALL:

    @Jstorm:

    You continually prove you know absolutely nothing about weapon balance. I garuntee even with those buffs, no competitive players will use the flail and it’s for the exact same reason there’s only one competitive player in North America that uses the warhammer. It’s really fast and powerful but that doesn’t make it the best weapon at all; It’s terrible reach is what keeps it from being used.

    He said he wanted it to have a longer reach than a warhammer and for it to counter VGs and Knights with Swords.

    How many “competitive” players are there in North America? There are like 5 games up on youtube altogether. Furthermore, if you are so hot on these balance changes, why the hell do you have the ProMod thing in your signature, implying that you want to go back to pre-patch Chiv?

    That’s simply because of the terrible mechanics changes. I agree with ALL of the balance changes except for the claymore and archer ones and I’m sure most people agree that most of the balance changes are good.



  • @Jstorm:

    @SSJ_EIGHTBALL:

    @Jstorm:

    That’s simply because of the terrible mechanics changes. I agree with ALL of the balance changes except for the claymore and archer ones and I’m sure most people agree that most of the balance changes are good.

    This is a matter of perspective, but to me, the balance changes are effected by the mechanics changes.

    For example- Sure, the Brandistock got a buff, but the mechanics changes buffed it even more than that. Even if they didn’t buff it’s damage values and speed, it would be stronger anyways, because of the mechanics changes.



  • One thing is for sure, both of the flails suck.

    I like the idea in; http://www.chivalrythegame.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=15069 with a few alterations.

    Also the buckler needs a buff;
    I think I have a small solution to make the buckler not a piece of garbage.

    Give the buckler the ability to parry, it would have the same hitbox, active window and recovery as a normal weapon parry but DO NOT give the user the ability to riposte after the parry.
    The buckler should also retain the regular hold to block function but with the added stamina penalty.
    This way you can have better stamina management and be rewarded for timing your blocks correctly.

    ALSO the buckler shield bash needs to be longer OR the added collision needs to be removed.
    As of right now you can’t get close enough because it pushes you back a little, or it just flat out misses.



  • @SSJ_EIGHTBALL:

    Are you crazy?

    This would be easily the best weapon in the game post patch. EVERYBODY wants a ton of damage and speed.

    Nobody gives a shit about recovery (because you can parry during it) or combos (because their value has been drastically reduced due to the new patch.) Nobody can go on an “offensive chain of destruction” anymore. I barely have enough stamina to make this post.

    I hope nobody from TB listens to this. Is it really all that odd that a ball chained to a stick would be a wierd and ultimately less effective weapon than a sword or a spear?

    Power down, you’re taking it too literally. I posted that way before the patch, also it is a high level personal “vision”, completely lacking in detail and tuning, wasn’t meant to be definitive in any way.

    The point was to think of a specific “role” for the Flail weapon, rather than it just being a shitty warhammer. (I haven’t yet tried it since the current patch though).

    The playstyle worked well in AoC, where if I was in the middle of a large battle, I’d get pinned down and destroyed by faster classes, but put me one on one against a slow, powerful sword user, and I could seek out, lock him down and destroy by utilising my defence and counters to neutralise him pretty well. I felt I had a distinct place on the battlefield rather than charging around swinging at anything near.

    It was about the combination of offense, defence (the Heater shield), and decent armour which made the class what it was, not just the weapon itself. Also that “ball on a stick” was very effective in combat with armoured opponents, especially shield users. Notice how a lot of medieval weapons aren’t necessarily sharp? The point was to use physics, leverage, momentum and well, blunt force to deliver shock to the person under the armour, as well as crushing it too. Swords weren’t always the perfect weapons to take on armoured foes with. Hence my proposal of the role of the class being to pin down and defeat slow, heavily armoured class (Mainly Shield Knights and Sword Vanguards, not ALL variations of those classes).

    Of course this is a different game, with shitloads more weapons and completely different balance, but like I said, it was a high level vision, not a literal definition. Such a “subclass” would be in no way superior, as it would be tuned to be quickly neutralised by other weapons and playstyles.

    To me personally, the “approach” behind a class and playstyle, is as important as how it actually turns out (when tuned and balanced accordingly), as a deciding factor of whether I like playing it. Previously (again I need to test after the last patch) I didn’t feel Flails really had a proper role, they felt like a bland, blank weapon template of which the playstyle and everything else could easily be substituted by the warhammer or most other weapons, which was sad.

    Nothing wrong with provoking some abstract thought, that is what this section is for after all, as well as discussing the specifics. What would YOU like the flail to actually be? And I don’t mean x damage, x windup etc. Do you actually feel that the current flail has it’s own “place”?



  • I think when you pick the flail you should get to choose between either the kite sheild or the tower sheild and replace the sheild bash with an attack which you bash the enemy with the butt of the handle of your flail that you can also combo in and out of. Might me cool to implement and I’ll be thinking of some flail balance suggestions later. I’m still working them out in my notes with the damage values determining HTKs and also I’m determining the speed values based off of other weapons. I’ll post in on this thread later when I’m done.



  • I try to use the flail, however the Buckler screws with my head. I know it has the same hitbox as the other shields/parry, however there is something about that makes me miss blocks so so often. With the kite shield I have no problem blocking, I can block attacks until the cows come home, the Buckler though. Nope.
    My guess is the model of it isn’t representing the hitbox properly and my mind is trying to block with the shield instead of blocking with the hitbox.



  • @Toll:

    I know it has the same hitbox as the other shields/parry,

    Testing I did shows otherwise…



  • Make ALL shields available to the Knights to every setup that is one-handed.

    Longsword + Heater Shield <333

    Or heavy flail and tower shield, rawr.


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