Problem with stabs and a solution.



  • The problem with stabs (in particular with some 2h weapons) is that the windup part of the attack can phase through the target and there after when the stab reaches the release part of the attack causes sudden damage. What this means is that one can use the stab on weapons like the SoW and great sword at face hug range. This is a very bad thing when exploited to maximum efficacy.

    Therefore, I propose that if during the windup phase of a stab a weapon hits a target the attack fails.

    What this would mean is that you would be unable to phase (example) a great sword (stab) into someone from facehug range and then be rewarded with stab damage. This would be a good thing because it is a physical impossibility to do this at face hug range. But also when this tactic is exploited to its maximum efficacy it is very overpowered.

    If it is difficult to visualise this issue I want you go and get your house hold broom and hold it with both hands around the base.
    Then stand 1ft back from your front door (while its closed of course).
    Now try and get the other end of the broom to poke the front door (without moving your hands).

    You will quickly see that this issue is a major flaw in the game.

    NOW THAT YOU KNOW THE FLAW:
    I want you to perfect its use so you can see how overpowered it is.
    Just be at face hug range and flank around your target. This makes the stab nearly Impossible to parry or block (if done correctly.)
    Another thing you can do with the SoW is keep face hugging and constantly burrowing your face into your target. Now keep doing this until your target makes an attack which you will parry and then repost with the SoW’s stab. If you lean forwards slightly whilst doing this the attack is lightning fast. All you need to do is repeat this until your target is dead and you are lvl 40.



  • Many players already exploit this by facehugging, usually also done by lookdowning so it’s harder to block.

    I wouldn’t say it’s the only problem with stabs though. Some others I would add:

    1. Many longer swords and spears can physically poke through your player model and stick out behind you. When your opponent launches a stab the weapon tip (during windup) is behind you. Whether or not you can block by facing forward rather than the tip (behind you) is just random at best. Usually it’s a guaranteed hit just by confusion alone.

    2. Stab windups are too hard to see. If someone does an overhead swing on you that’s pretty easy. You see the weapon go up - and then back down again. Stab attacks happen on the same visual plane as your vision is so you can’t see the windup most of the time. It’s not the biggest issue but it can be when combined with point #3. Seasoned players don’t have as much problem with stab in this way but stabs are lethal to new(er) players as they just cannot see them properly, eve if they are otherwise decent blockers.

    3. Stabs are way too fast. Not only are stabs usually the fastest attack that weapons can do, riposte stabs are even faster and often totally unblockable. Riposte stabs with faster 1H weapons like Norse and HWS are nearly instantaneous. I was on a server with a bunch of guys a few weeks ago and they were testing the HWS stabs. They found that HWS riposte stabs were physically impossible to block depending on the attackers weapon. It can strike before the attackers weapon has gone out of recovery from the parry. While other weapons are not THAT fast, they do require reactions of a house fly on drugs and most players don’t have that.



  • @Goden:

    riposte stabs are even faster and often totally unblockable.

    If your reflexes are slower than that of a snail’s



  • @NoVaLombardia:

    @Goden:

    riposte stabs are even faster and often totally unblockable.

    If your reflexes are slower than that of a snail’s

    It seems most peoples reflexes are.

    If I do parry a riposte stabs and do one back I usually get a hit. As my opponent doesn’t expect me to block. That means that most people don’t.

    But then the fight becomes really fast paced. And I like that.



  • I only wanted to assess the original issue in the OP. If this one thing was fixed then an attacker would need to be more mindful of their range when using stab. This would then influence the other issues you’ve mentioned as you’d have more visibility and a fraction more time to react making things much more sensible. I doubt stab would need changing after this point.

    (This of course assumes that you’re using 1st person. If your using 3rd person you’re taking advantage of this situation.)



  • When I fight a high level clannie and they do a SOW stab counter attack… I don’t have a problem with it. Once you have played long enough you get used to the animations clueing you in what is coming. I don’t think we need to dumb it down for new players.

    Holy stab is fast, but range sucks. Without the forward facing chase mechanic it reduces the face hugging. I was actually able to keep at bay and kill BB master facehugging MAA with a vanguard (well once anyway) in Beta.



  • Read the original post again gregcau or just don’t bother.



  • @giantyak:

    Read the original post again gregcau or just don’t bother.

    I saw a shit load of whining about face hugging.

    Play the Beta or don’t bother posting.



  • @gregcau:

    When I fight a high level clannie and they do a SOW stab counter attack… I don’t have a problem with it. Once you have played long enough you get used to the animations clueing you in what is coming. I don’t think we need to dumb it down for new players.

    Holy stab is fast, but range sucks. Without the forward facing chase mechanic it reduces the face hugging. I was actually able to keep at bay and kill BB master facehugging MAA with a vanguard (well once anyway) in Beta.

    What you are suggesting is that an advanced player needs to exploit this tactic to beat newbs…

    If you need this to beat other players then perhaps you’re not as good as you think you are.

    It is pitiful when people exploit flaws in a game and then think that it makes them pro.

    As clearly described in the OP the issue of executing a stab at point blank range with a 2h sword is ridiculous.



  • I use whatever attack I deem as the highest chance to kill my opponent, regardless of their level. If my SoW parry->stab gets them, fine I’ll do that, I also move to my right when I do it, making it even harder.

    This is not an exploit. An exploit is along the lines of walking along a skybox by jumping up a rock ledge for example. Something that is clearly not intended. A counter -> stab is intended. It is not an exploit, get over it. Learn to to parry it.

    A riposte stab/overhead/slash is no harder to parry than the others, it all requires an almost immediate click of your parry button as soon as you see the animation. The reason for this is clear. There is no other possible thing they can do once that animation starts, therefore you are 100% safe to hit parry as soon as the animation starts, AS LONG AS THAT ANIMATION IS IN THE RIPOSTE WINDOW.

    If your opponent waits even 100ms after they make a successful parry, then the game changes and insta-parry is no longer an option. This sort of stuff only comes with experience, it is the reason why a level 50 player is significantly better than a level 1 player, even though the entire range of options is available to both players.

    If you are really having trouble beating a player that is higher rank than you, ask them to go easy on you. I do that whenever someone asks, I will not use riposte or feints if they want easy-mode. I will not stop using them if someone calls it an exploit, as they simply have not learned the necessary skills required and they wont as long as they call simple, intended game mechanics an exploit.



  • All you have done is made lots of irrelevant assumtions. I think the maneuver you desribe is brillient, however as described in the OP, i’m saying that when this move is done at facehug range it is a physical impossability and that therefore the attack should fail.



  • i’m saying that when this move is done at facehug range it is a physical impossability and that therefore the attack should fail.

    This is a game not reality. Otherwise you should be able to do pommel bashes and shoulder barges and all sorts of fun stuff.

    At facehug range it is still parryable. I know, because I parry it a lot.



  • So do I, but I think it would be a fatal error on TB’s part to balance the rest of the game around this situation. If this is the way TB intend the game to be then so be it.



  • @giantyak:

    The problem with stabs (in particular with some 2h weapons) is that the windup part of the attack can phase through the target and there after when the stab reaches the release part of the attack causes sudden damage. What this means is that one can use the stab on weapons like the SoW and great sword at face hug range. This is a very bad thing when exploited to maximum efficacy.

    Therefore, I propose that if during the windup phase of a stab a weapon hits a target the attack fails.

    What this would mean is that you would be unable to phase (example) a great sword (stab) into someone from facehug range and then be rewarded with stab damage. This would be a good thing because it is a physical impossibility to do this at face hug range. But also when this tactic is exploited to its maximum efficacy it is very overpowered.

    If it is difficult to visualise this issue I want you go and get your house hold broom and hold it with both hands around the base.
    Then stand 1ft back from your front door (while its closed of course).
    Now try and get the other end of the broom to poke the front door (without moving your hands).

    You will quickly see that this issue is a major flaw in the game.

    NOW THAT YOU KNOW THE FLAW:
    I want you to perfect its use so you can see how overpowered it is.
    Just be at face hug range and flank around your target. This makes the stab nearly Impossible to parry or block (if done correctly.)
    Another thing you can do with the SoW is keep face hugging and constantly burrowing your face into your target. Now keep doing this until your target makes an attack which you will parry and then repost with the SoW’s stab. If you lean forwards slightly whilst doing this the attack is lightning fast. All you need to do is repeat this until your target is dead and you are lvl 40.

    agree and imo facehugging in general ought to be fixed with some kind of buffer bubble. this game gains nothing by permitting facehugging.



  • It’s not quite to the point of game breaking, but I’d love to see something done about it all the same.

    Any attack that spawns hit tracers inside a target should either fail or have a significant penalty attached to it, along the lines of -50% damage in terms of severity at the least.

    For high level play it’s merely a minor annoyance, but it’s a major issue that’s very difficult to deal with for mid-level players (80% of the active playerbase, which shouldn’t be ignored) and downright impossible for new players.



  • @giantyak:

    So do I, but I think it would be a fatal error on TB’s part to balance the rest of the game around this situation. If this is the way TB intend the game to be then so be it.

    i suspect facehug stabs r not intended, just like overhead lookdown and decelerated attacks are not intended, which the devs have stated. if facehug stabs r intended, that is simple poor game design imo, and many will be/likely are put off by it.



  • So a stab hitting you 0.02 seconds ealier is game breaking?


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