Weapon talk : Bastard swords one-handed



  • The one-handed style variation of the Bastard swords, currently locked to shields but can be done in one hand without shield with a weapon swap glitch, though it will be available later in the future.

    Longsword

    ! Longsword
    ! Attack style, Damage, Type, Force, Windup, Combo, Release, Recovery and W+R+R.
    ! Attack1 : 60 Cut F: 150 = 0.45/0.7/0.5/0.65 = 1.6
    ! Attack2 : 75 Cut F: 150 = 0.45/0.75/0.45/0.7 = 1.6
    ! Attack3 : 55 Pierce F: 225 = 0.5/0.65/0.35/0.55 = 1.45
    ! Reach : 58
    ! Facts:

    Sword of War

    ! Sword of War
    ! Attack style, Damage, Type, Force, Windup, Combo, Release, Recovery and W+R+R.
    ! Attack1 : 55 Cut F: 120 = 0.45/0.7/0.45/0.6 = 1.55
    ! Attack2 : 60 Cut F: 120 = 0.45/0.75/0.4/0.75 = 1.6
    ! Attack3 : 60 Pierce F: 300 = 0.5/0.65/0.35/0.65 = 1.5
    ! Reach : 54
    ! Facts:

    Messer

    ! Messer
    ! Attack style, Damage, Type, Force, Windup, Combo, Release, Recovery and W+R+R.
    ! Attack1 : 80 Cut F: 225 = 0.5/0.7/0.4/0.6 = 1.5
    ! Attack2 : 75 CutBlunt F: 225 = 0.55/0.7/0.4/0.7 = 1.65
    ! Attack3 : 50 Pierce F: 225 = 0.55/0.65/0.35/0.55 = 1.45
    ! Reach : 44
    ! Facts:

    Balance discussion.
    None

    Weapon damage value dedicated for the weapon talk threads can be found here:
    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Ami8d_HZmYHsdDRzc1Byb3ItVWNXSFR1SURHN29TZnc#gid=82

    Weapon talk : URL Threads
    http://www.chivalrythegame.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=14535

    Up to date change suggestions:
    Date: None

    ! None



  • Dont have much experience with this weapons, but from the numbers it seems to me that the messer and SOW swing and overhead could need some balancing.

    Only 5 dmg more on a strike thats harder to hit, harder to get around defense, does not compensate lag and is slower both in windup and combo?



  • It’s clear from the numbers that the SoW gets fairly nerfed when wielded one handed compared to the Longsword. Just look at those numbers, why isn’t the SoW stab faster or something?

    In general the problem with bastard swords one handed, is that they are UP overall. There’s little reason to use them over one handed weapons like the broadsword, warhammer, falchion, mace etc.

    Maybe a tiny bit of extra range is something but you almost never see anyone use these weapons competitively.

    I would at least buff the SoW stab speed and/or damage, and probably buff the messers damage overall.



  • I’ve tried to like using the primary swords one handed - and they are just not viable.

    Slow and weak. No caveats. Need buffing. Broadsword is only slightly shorter, but is much faster.

    Keep them slow, but make them more powerful - would be my suggestion.



  • @Dr:

    In general the problem with bastard swords one handed, is that they are UP overall. There’s little reason to use them over one handed weapons like the broadsword, warhammer, falchion, mace etc.

    Just want to point out that I have a friend who just loves his kiteshield-morningstar setup. While this works very well against vanguards and knights, he takes out the longsword against archers and MAA.

    This is in no way ment to prove they dont deserve a buff, but theres is a niche when theyre useful, beeing when you dont want a sword in your secondary slot. Against archers and MAA theres also little reason to wield it with two hands since you will need 2 torso hits anyway and that speed can be useful.



  • No need for buffing. They are a bonus, basically one more weapon for the kniggit. This way, kniggit gets:

    1. 2H bastard: vanguard killer - very good reach, extreme speed, good damage (mostly 2 hit kills), not bad choice against anything but long range archer too

    2. 1H bastard + shield: archer killer - obviously mostly negates, or at least severely limits their ranged attack, even when used passively; not a very bad choice against MaA to btw (often 2 hit kills)

    3a) secondary sword + shield: MaA killer - the same or better reach, the same or better speed (depending on whether the MaA is using swords or other weapons), but much more armor (2hit kills vs 4 or even 5 hit kills)

    3b) secondary mace + shield: knight killer - blunt damage with reasonable speed and reach, not bad choice against vanguard either, competent against MaA

    In comparison:
    A) MaA can get either good anti-soft, either competent anti-hard or competent universal primary + shitty secondary, both combinable with some anti-archery shield.

    B) vanguard gets one powerful but very one purposed weapon with much worse defense capabilities and one basically shitty secondary with even worse defense capabilities.



  • Personally, I really like the SoW one handed. The stab has an extremely huge range for a one hander with good damage: 2 htk on Archers and MaAs, 2 + Kick on Vanguard, 4 as usual on Knight. It is neat to fight alongside teammates for long-range melee support while having the security of a shield; basically you can hit anyone within a great radius and still block multiple attacks, making it a great group combat weapon. And it tends to get the first hit on enemies due to being underestimated in range and speed while still comboing nicely. Certainly not a bad weapon.

    The Longsowrd is similar, but cant make as good use of its range due to a weak stab. However you can cover lots of ground with its stronger swing which is useful to catch evasive opponents. Still more of a niche weapon however.

    The Messer seems to get the shaft for the most part. There is pretty much nobody using that weapon one-handed and I do not see why anyone would.



  • @Towe:

    @Dr:

    In general the problem with bastard swords one handed, is that they are UP overall. There’s little reason to use them over one handed weapons like the broadsword, warhammer, falchion, mace etc.

    Just want to point out that I have a friend who just loves his kiteshield-morningstar setup. While this works very well against vanguards and knights, he takes out the longsword against archers and MAA.

    This is in no way ment to prove they dont deserve a buff, but theres is a niche when theyre useful, beeing when you dont want a sword in your secondary slot. Against archers and MAA theres also little reason to wield it with two hands since you will need 2 torso hits anyway and that speed can be useful.

    Actually I have a very similar setup I often use (mace+SoW+kite shield) but the problem is that a) the SoW is ridiculously nerfed when one handed compared to the longsword and b) the broadsword is just a better all round option.

    I just feel if we’re talking about subtle changes in these balance threads, this is one area that really needs looking at.



  • If you use mace and shield you cannot take the broadsword. Its like saying the mace is UP for knights because the warhammer is better (asuming it is, I dont know).

    Weapons in different slots should not be compared like that. Instead you should think about the possible setups.



  • Vermillion: Strongly disagree that the 1h bastards ‘dont need a buff’. As Zob said, the broadsword is a better option in nearly every way - hell, the secondaries are ALL better in nearly every way.

    Therefore, the 1h bastard swords are not a ‘bonus’ for the knight, he already has that bonus in the form of his secondary. There’s especially no reason to use a bastard sword 1h against an archer, like your example: its slow as hell - therefore not ideal. Broadsword/norse sword are the de-facto archer/maa slayers, and even a flanged mace is hardly ineffective against these classes: fast and still can two hit with a headshot. So, regardless of secondary choice, 1h bastard sword is a useless option in comparison.

    Currently the 1h primary swords are not a bonus: they are worthless, and rarely used. I hear people mention the SOW 1h, but its stab appears to be its only useful attack - and I can count on one hand the number i’ve seen using that setup.



  • I suggest the following changes to SoW one handed:

    Sword of War
    Attack style, Damage, Type, Force, Windup, Combo, Release, Recovery and W+R+R.
    Attack1 : 55 Cut F: 120 = 0.45/0.7/0.45/0.6 = 1.55
    Attack2 : 60 Cut F: 120 = 0.45/0.75/0.4/0.75 = 1.6
    Attack3 : 60 Pierce F: 300 = 0.45/0.65/0.35/0.55 = 1.35
    Reach : 54

    This would make the stab slightly faster than the Longsword stab for only 5 more damage. I think at least we need the SoW stab speed to be the same as the Longsword: 0.5/0.65/0.35/0.55 = 1.45.



  • i know Entire Population of China likes using a 1h SoW setup.

    Does it have the same range as the 2h counterparts, or slightly less?



  • @NoVaLombardia:

    i know Entire Population of China likes using a 1h SoW setup.

    Does it have the same range as the 2h counterparts, or slightly less?

    The numbers show the range as the same but I think the animation gives the two handed version more range, that’s just an assumption though.

    Also how do you know this? What kind of Chiv population does China have?



  • @Triumphant:

    Currently the 1h primary swords are not a bonus:

    It IS a bonus. If you havent noticed, no other 2H weapon cannot be used with a shield. Bastard swords used as 2-handed are very good weapons, I would argue that SoW is even broken (not imbalanced, just broken because of the inherent game limitations), totally comparable to any other primaries in game.

    Moreover, the knights gets a set of very powerful secondaries… note that MaA class uses knights secondaries as its own primaries.

    So the use of bastard swords as 1H weapons adds unparalleled variety to any individual knights arsenal, no other class has such a choice. So even if the 1H bastards are situational, they are something the knight has and the other classes don’t. And their seeming underpoweredness stems from the comparison with the very powerful secondaries… no other class has this powerful secondaries. Every other class has shitty secondaries that are basically… secondaries, since their use is very situational.

    Sure, vanguard has axes (MaA’s primaries, quite useful weapons) but doesn’t have the other things (speed, dodge, shield) to use their full potential so they are comparably very shitty against the primaries (there is no reason for a vanguard with claymore to use an axe since it is inferior in almost every aspect). All other secondaries are just a joke weapons used as a last resort for a very special reason (humiliation of the enemy, necessity to facehug an otherwise more skilled foe, or just losing all arrows or distance as an archer). In comparison, broad sword with a kite shield in knight’s hands is still a very potent weapons not to be taken lightly (+ there is the thing that knight gets a shitload of 1H swords that look pretty similar to each other and in the fray are quite difficult to tell apart and adjust tactics to), which is very different from a MaA with a dagger or javelineer with a sabre.

    So if the 1H bastard swords’ use seems situational to you, deal with it, you might have had nothing.



  • alright - fine, its bonus.

    I have the added ‘bonus’ option of switching out of using my 2h sword, to 1h, instead of my better choice secondary…. BECAUSE I CANNNN. HAHAHAAAAA…

    Okay, so its bonus that you have more choice - but thats it. Asides from the fact that you ‘can’ switch out primary swords to 1h, theres practically no real functional, practical reason to do so.

    So the ‘bonus’ is somewhat futile, is it not?

    But I get the angle that you are arguing from. You dont want knights to have 3 powerful weapon choices at once. This makes sense, but if 1h primary swords were an effective choice, i’d happily use them in my secondary slot instead.

    Therefore, 1h bastard swords should be buffed and made useful, but perhaps the ability to use 1h would be in place of the secondary slot. Could be a non weapon slot like the extra arrows one for archer, called ‘strong arm’ or some shit, allowing user to wield the 2h sword in one hand.

    This makes sense from all angles. Obviously wont happen though, and therefore 1h bastards will continue to only be used for a refreshing change of pace.



  • @Triumphant:

    I have the added ‘bonus’ option of switching out of using my 2h sword, to 1h, instead of my better choice secondary.

    So youre using swordline secondary?

    Because if you dont there are scenarios where the 1H bastardsword would be better…



  • @Triumphant:

    But I get the angle that you are arguing from. You dont want knights to have 3 powerful weapon choices at once.

    Well, you basically nailed it. Thanks for understanding:)
    @Triumphant:

    This makes sense, but if 1h primary swords were an effective choice, i’d happily use them in my secondary slot instead.

    Hm, interesting idea… So basically buff 1H bastards and block all secondaries when choosing a bastard sword?
    Heh, not my place to decide, I don’t play knights, let’s just stick with that I don’t want them to have 3 powerful weapon choices at once, let the kniggit players sort it out.



  • Well, not quite!

    Buff the 1h bastards, then only allow you to use it 1h if you choose a ‘strong arm’ ability in place of your secondary weapon. It’d just be a bit rubbish if ALL secondaries were blocked using bastard swords, so the choice ought be there.

    I just want to find the longsword 1h useful! :(. But no, I do agree entirely that knights having 3 good weapon choices, including 2 shield weapons, would be nothing short of ridiculous.



  • If we could at least buff the 1h SoW to have a stab speed lightly faster than the Longsword!!

    Why would the longsword have a slower stab than the SoW when weilded two handed but a faster one one handed?

    :? :? :?



  • Just pointing out that for some reason the Messer 1h got changed but nothing else. Not sure why.

    Messer 1H slash release from .45 to .4 and damage from 70 SwingBlunt to 80 Swing
    Messer 1H overhead combo from .75 to .7

    It now one shots an archer if you slash to the head, but not overhead to the head :?


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