Discussion on the big picture on how to retain new players



  • @JCash:

    Unless you play a lot / are good at the game don’t make a suggestion.

    New players have insights that clannie rank 40+ fail to see.

    When I write software the most important feedback is from someone who has never used the software before because it immediately highlights usability issues. Any smart person can work with the most user-unfriendly software in the world, but it fails to address the important human computer interaction issues.

    That is why the feedback from the clannies often misses the big picture. And I use the word clannie as high level skillful players, not specific to clans.

    TBS has spent an enormous effort to appease clannies with lots of work on minute balance changes. We have had half a dozen Betas to work on that.

    While sure this is important, and some of those changes will benefit the pub community very soon they need to switch focus to issues for new players. Unless they do not plan on getting new revenue from new players and are content to just sustaining the game with long term players.

    From a statistical perspective, after the free weekend the concurrent players jumped from 1500 to 12,000 but has since dropped to 2500. Certainly a decent community increase but the game can do much better.

    Unfortunately tuning the holy water sprinkler from 0.7 to 0.65 is not going to address those issues.

    Some things I have championed came into play, such as the lower rank servers to make the new player experience enjoyable and I have seen them in use (as I was denied trying to join accidentally). But there is much more to be done which I will not going into.

    Forums are what they are, MMO forums have tons of new player feedback. This one however is 99% clanny posting. There is one thread dedicated to first impressions which is invaluable but more needs to be done to address the adoption issues of new players so that they can get better faster and enjoy the full potential of the game.



  • The balance counsel should have some high level pub players that aren’t one trick ponies. Then we can get the best feedback.

    Or at least clan players that aren’t super competitive and play pub games mostly.

    Getting the community to talk in game about balancing is always interesting. I can get people talking all the time. And they usually agree on thins that would be considered outrageous to some people here.



  • We should pull homeless people off the street and put them in hospitals and try and get them to diagnose patients. They might have insight doctors lack.

    I dont like people over catering to casuals.

    What casuals like about this game is the broad outline, they don’t really understand it enough to have opinions that matter.

    So, yea if a casual says something like ‘votekick sucks’ sure, they know everything you need to know about votekick.

    if they say ‘chatbox is hard to use / annoying’ sure, they know everything you need to know about it.

    if they say ‘x weapon is overpowered’ after playing for 10mins and getting killed by it, that isnt an opinion that needs to be expressed.

    incidentally, it MIGHT be overpowered, they MIGHT be correct, but they’ll be correct for the wrong reasons and not really UNDERSTAND what they’re saying / why what they’re saying is accurate. Like a parrot saying ‘2+2=4’ they dont UNDERSTAND math, they’re just spewing something that happens to be correct.

    Most people with less than 500 hours needs never voice their opinion on anything. In my opinion. I’ve seen dudes with under that amount of hours with GREAt insights into the game but generally thats b/c they hooked up with a clan early and have been constantly drilling with other good players. Very rare.
    –----------
    Any opinion that touches on complex interacting game mechanics/factors, and isnt existing in isolation (like the votekick, chatbox do) you’re not qualified to make a single comment on without a lot of experience.

    Balance council

    i personally find the members somewhat lulzy.
    –----------------------------------

    If you consider yourself a casual. If you play just for fun and could care less about specific mechanics.

    Then you dont belong on a forum. Post in initial impressions about how much you like it. Then go back to playing for fun and leave the balance discussion to the people that understand the game.

    No one is changing what you, the casual, like about the game. you’ll be able to run around and lmb people to death.

    For new players, the game is fine, and will remain fine. The newb experience is not effected by minute balance changes that are important to good players doing stuff at the boundaries of what the mechanics allow.



  • I understand you don’t understand, you look at chivalry through a microscope and can’t see the forest for the trees.

    Clannies focus on competitive and duels, period, nothing else.

    Meanwhile there is a huge drop in players due to absolutely no new content since January.

    Its a shame, but there you have it.



  • The “Balance Council” is a joke and an insult to the people that actually make up the majority of the playerbase.

    The moment TBS stops catering to high-ranking comp players is the moment this game can become fun for everyone else, and like you said, get the player count back up again.

    Sorry for you pro guys, but you have completely trashed this game for those of us that like to pop into Chiv for a few bits of fun here and there.



  • @JCash:

    We should pull homeless people off the street and put them in hospitals and try and get them to diagnose patients. They might have insight doctors lack.

    I dont like people over catering to casuals.

    What casuals like about this game is the broad outline, they don’t really understand it enough to have opinions that matter.

    So, yea if a casual says something like ‘votekick sucks’ sure, they know everything you need to know about votekick.

    if they say ‘chatbox is hard to use / annoying’ sure, they know everything you need to know about it.

    if they say ‘x weapon is overpowered’ after playing for 10mins and getting killed by it, that isnt an opinion that needs to be expressed.

    incidentally, it MIGHT be overpowered, they MIGHT be correct, but they’ll be correct for the wrong reasons and not really UNDERSTAND what they’re saying / why what they’re saying is accurate. Like a parrot saying ‘2+2=4’ they dont UNDERSTAND math, they’re just spewing something that happens to be correct.

    Most people with less than 500 hours needs never voice their opinion on anything. In my opinion. I’ve seen dudes with under that amount of hours with GREAt insights into the game but generally thats b/c they hooked up with a clan early and have been constantly drilling with other good players. Very rare.
    –----------
    Any opinion that touches on complex interacting game mechanics/factors, and isnt existing in isolation (like the votekick, chatbox do) you’re not qualified to make a single comment on without a lot of experience.

    Balance council

    i personally find the members somewhat lulzy.
    –----------------------------------

    If you consider yourself a casual. If you play just for fun and could care less about specific mechanics.

    Then you dont belong on a forum. Post in initial impressions about how much you like it. Then go back to playing for fun and leave the balance discussion to the people that understand the game.

    No one is changing what you, the casual, like about the game. you’ll be able to run around and lmb people to death.

    For new players, the game is fine, and will remain fine. The newb experience is not effected by minute balance changes that are important to good players doing stuff at the boundaries of what the mechanics allow.

    Who does this guy think he is? The great and powerful one thats always right and that everyone should listen to and follow?



  • @lemonater47:

    Who does this guy think he is? The great and powerful one thats always right and that everyone should listen to and follow?

    We know who JCash is, and I quote

    @Panzerlang:

    I have nearly two fucking decades of experience in PC gaming that allow me to pinpoint with extreme accuracy the success or failure of a game.

    CMW is a mediocre arcade blaster with the standard dev mentality that will not admit of anything that will save the game from death.

    Next.



  • @lemonater47:

    Who does this guy think he is? The great and powerful one thats always right and that everyone should listen to and follow?

    Yes.

    How can TBS cater to new players? What are there interests, what changes would be made to help them?

    New content? Of the kind the SDK will facilitate?

    Votekick being fixed?

    Low rank servers established?

    @gregcau:

    I understand you don’t understand, you look at chivalry through a microscope and can’t see the forest for the trees.

    Clannies focus on competitive and duels, period, nothing else.

    Meanwhile there is a huge drop in players due to absolutely no new content since January.

    Its a shame, but there you have it.

    I don’t get what you’re saying or the point of this thread. Who doesnt want new content and new maps? No one.

    There is no way to cater specifically to casual players. How is it hard to understand this?

    They play the game because they like how it works broadly speaking. If you change how it works in a major way, that isnt catering to anyone its drastically changing the game. If you make small balance related tweaks, casuals wont even notice them.

    Casuals do not have to be worried about as long as we’re not talking about major huge game overhauls. They’re the segment of the population that is most forgiving of issues.

    –---------

    AND, with skd, customization, and low rank servers being established

    Casuals are being catered to ANYWAY. along with the rest of the population, those are good things to have exist.



  • @JCash:

    There is no way to cater specifically to casual players. How is it hard to understand this?

    Thats not true. Its all about prioritization of enhancements and issues.

    So for the last couple of months they had the option of prioritizing clannie players and balance or addressing issues that affect new players.

    Case in point. One glaringly obvious problem for new players is someone attacks you (lets say a high level player). They go for the stab, you raise your shield but it still strikes you.

    From a clannie perspective you understand the hit box width and that the player model is wider than what is displayed on the screen and that the shield hit box is smaller than the shield.

    From a new player perspective it is “wtf this shit is broken”.

    Its that kind of stuff and much more, my point is TBS focuses on the forum which is abnormally skewed in the favor of high level players. They need to take a step back and adjust their strategy for updates for revenue of new players as soon as this new balance patch comes out (angels included or not).



  • @gregcau:

    @JCash:

    There is no way to cater specifically to casual players. How is it hard to understand this?

    Thats not true. Its all about prioritization of enhancements and issues.

    So for the last couple of months they had the option of prioritizing clannie players and balance or addressing issues that affect new players.

    Case in point. One glaringly obvious problem for new players is someone attacks you (lets say a high level player). They go for the stab, you raise your shield but it still strikes you.

    From a clannie perspective you understand the hit box width and that the player model is wider than what is displayed on the screen and that the shield hit box is smaller than the shield.

    From a new player perspective it is “wtf this shit is broken”.

    Its that kind of stuff and much more, my point is TBS focuses on the forum which is abnormally skewed in the favor of high level players. They need to take a step back and adjust their strategy for updates for revenue of new players as soon as this new balance patch comes out (angels included or not).

    As a new player you know they must have went around your shield, and you need to turn more when blocking.

    I dont understand your example, give more.

    Seriously i think you’re just off base right now and thinking in a confused manner. Give like 5 concrete examples of what exactly you mean.

    I contend there is no way to cater to casuals. What casuals like about a game is the broad idea of how it works. There is no way to break the game to casuals, without massive idiotic changes.

    Their opinions don’t matter and are not informed by experience.



  • @JCash:

    As a new player you know they must have went around your shield, and you need to turn more when blocking.

    I dont understand your example, give more.

    Precisely, you do not remember what it is to be a new player. It was what 700 hours ago?

    Ok a lesser example but an obvious one.

    I am a new player, playing Classic against noobs because I don’t know that TDM is an aweful game mode. Some clannies join because although they hate TDM and FFA they can’t resist going to fuck up some noobies.

    So they face them and suddenly its like WTF how did you swing that weapon soooo fucking fast, omg you are a hacker.

    Now you and I know that with high mouse sensitivity you can do a very fast combo overhead with a lookdown at your feet option.

    But to a new player its like fuck you, you are hacking I hate this game.

    That one is different because its more about education and lack of prominent materials to provide information on how to excel at the game. But the point is the same, there needs to be an overall strategy on how accomodate the game for noobs to make it enjoyable. The resources are different, its not a programming issue, more of a communication and training issue.

    Facehugging is my personal peeve. I fucking hate face huggers. Pardon my french. There was a bubble but it was removed. The Beta is a little better without the chase mode while facing but these and many more issues are needed to make the game better to get new players, and in turn have the new players contact their friends to play as well.



  • @OP



  • @gregcau:

    @JCash:

    As a new player you know they must have went around your shield, and you need to turn more when blocking.

    I dont understand your example, give more.

    Precisely, you do not remember what it is to be a new player. It was what 700 hours ago?

    Ok a lesser example but an obvious one.

    I am a new player, playing Classic against noobs because I don’t know that TDM is an aweful game mode. Some clannies join because although they hate TDM and FFA they can’t resist going to fuck up some noobies.

    So they face them and suddenly its like WTF how did you swing that weapon soooo fucking fast, omg you are a hacker.

    Now you and I know that with high mouse sensitivity you can do a very fast combo overhead with a lookdown at your feet option.

    But to a new player its like fuck you, you are hacking I hate this game.

    That one is different because its more about education and lack of prominent materials to provide information on how to excel at the game. But the point is the same, there needs to be an overall strategy on how accomodate the game for noobs to make it enjoyable. The resources are different, its not a programming issue, more of a communication and training issue.

    Facehugging is my personal peeve. I fucking hate face huggers. Pardon my french. There was a bubble but it was removed. The Beta is a little better without the chase mode while facing but these and many more issues are needed to make the game better to get new players, and in turn have the new players contact their friends to play as well.

    I think you’re thinking of a retard.

    a retard (mentally challenged person) will have a very hard time learning to play/getting good at this game.

    Especially if he doesnt look at the tutorial section on steam/this forum / various youtube vids showing how to play / google ‘how to play chivalry,’ or ask anyone good to show them.

    confused thinking, you are a victim of.

    There are a ton of easy to access resources for ANYONE that wants to improve at this game.

    Your opinion is wrong. gg

    I do find it strange that the effect of looking at your feet vs looking at the sky isnt mentioned during the tutorial, which would be easy to do.

    probably dont want to scare new players away with how ridiculous a mechanic it is.



  • @JCash:

    big snip

    Alright, thank for your clannie opinion.

    Ok, so tell me why is the community fallen so small. What would it take to turn it around?

    More minute weapon windup times to change?

    Or do you believe the game is really not meant for the masses, only 1500 concurrent players.



  • and its sat night and the players have dropped to 2,000.

    clannies just don’t get it, too focused on their own issues to see the big picture.\

    I have had two businesses and fallen for the same strategic problem, it happens when the leaders are very technical and focus on software perfection instead of a solid business strategy.



  • @gregcau:

    @JCash:

    big snip

    Alright, thank for your clannie opinion.

    Ok, so tell me why is the community fallen so small. What would it take to turn it around?

    More minute weapon windup times to change?

    Or do you believe the game is really not meant for the masses, only 1500 concurrent players.

    In january the devs released a patch that broke the game entirely. It was fixed in, what may?

    No admin support at launch no hacker protection, no alt swings, like 5 maps, super powerful feints, back then there really WERE no materials on how to improve that were easy to access/useful.

    I thinkt hey’re a victim of a bad launch, and then poor choices after that launch which decimated the population, and without a major marketing campaign, an expansion, something huge they’ll never get that population back.

    Gamers are trendy, they move on to the next thing very quickly. For a while chivalry was big news, but then in the eyes of a lot of people it failed to preform/live up to the hype, and they dropped it.

    Even if they fix the game, i think its time has passed. Its not enough they turn it into a quality product they need some kind of marketing vehicle. It is not a content issue.

    LEad and gold, gangs of the wild west, shattered horizons, just came into my head. Excellent games, highly polished, shattered horizons was even visionary if you can imagine that. Both entirely dead atm, didnt even have the population boom chivalry briefly had.

    Why? Poor marketing. Just because a game is great doesnt mean it will do well. Chivalry can’t be great now, a year after release. It needed to be great then. This is too little too late, and a great show of why you should never rush release for a quick influx of cash and hope to make up for it later with patches. cough darkfall cough



  • @JCash:

    In january the devs released a patch that broke the game entirely. It was fixed in, what may?

    No admin support at launch no hacker protection, no alt swings, like 5 maps, super powerful feints, back then there really WERE no materials on how to improve that were easy to access/useful.

    I thinkt hey’re a victim of a bad launch, and then poor choices after that launch which decimated the population, and without a major marketing campaign, an expansion, something huge they’ll never get that population back.

    Gamers are trendy, they move on to the next thing very quickly. For a while chivalry was big news, but then in the eyes of a lot of people it failed to preform/live up to the hype, and they dropped it.

    Even if they fix the game, i think its time has passed. Its not enough they turn it into a quality product they need some kind of marketing vehicle. It is not a content issue.

    finally you are talking sense lol



  • @gregcau:

    and its sat night and the players have dropped to 2,000.

    clannies just don’t get it, too focused on their own issues to see the big picture.\

    I have had two businesses and fallen for the same strategic problem, it happens when the leaders are very technical and focus on software perfection instead of a solid business strategy.

    If the devs want to listen exclusively to the clanners then this game will die. Simple as that. Not much you can do about it besides move on when it eventually dies. You can’t save them all but at least you can say you tried.



  • @gregcau:

    and its sat night and the players have dropped to 2,000.

    clannies just don’t get it, too focused on their own issues to see the big picture.\

    I have had two businesses and fallen for the same strategic problem, it happens when the leaders are very technical and focus on software perfection instead of a solid business strategy.

    I think the devs are too afraid of losing their “hardcore crowd.” On the bright side, at least this isn’t War of the Roses. That game has 400 players at peak… on a good day.

    @Goden:

    If the devs want to listen exclusively to the clanners then this game will die. Simple as that. Not much you can do about it besides move on when it eventually dies. You can’t save them all but at least you can say you tried.

    Can you tell me who’s on the balance council?



  • @Goden:

    @gregcau:

    and its sat night and the players have dropped to 2,000.

    clannies just don’t get it, too focused on their own issues to see the big picture.\

    I have had two businesses and fallen for the same strategic problem, it happens when the leaders are very technical and focus on software perfection instead of a solid business strategy.

    If the devs want to listen exclusively to the clanners then this game will die. Simple as that. Not much you can do about it besides move on when it eventually dies. You can’t save them all but at least you can say you tried.

    What do you as a nub think should be done to improve the game?

    There is no gold buried in the shit people bad at the game spew when asked how it could be improved. Why are you putting the opinions of the uninformed on a pedestal and deriding those who actually have knowledge about the game?

    There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there always has been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that “my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.”

    Casuals like stuff like hats. customization. more maps. Frills. Which are being added.
    (non casuals like those things too.)

    so, yea.


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