My thoughts on general balance



  • We need tweak to the full potential of weapon in comparison to other weapons. With that I mean we need to take into account more stats than we do for most weapons. Currently we mostly consider windup,release,combotime and recovery but what about actual numbers on the range of the weapon( expressing the model lenght of the weapon in numbers), stats for the range of each individual attack, the speed by wich it counters and attack and a possible stamina drain on your opponent when its parried. the distance you knockback an opponent.

    Another aspect of the game to think of before we balance are the gamemechanics. It would beneficial if we would fix the game mechanics like feinting, alt swings and just general bugs of the game before we make too drastic changes to the stats of the weapons.

    We can try to imagine weapons to be balanced but we only do that with the experience we have in the live game. I’m pretty sure particular weapons are going to be used more or differently after we fix the game mechanics. So things that we consider OP now may not be OP after the game mechanics have been changed.

    Feinting in its current for example plays an important part ( if not the most important) whether or not you’ll land a hit. So for a proposed change like making the Maul a one hit weapon seems like a bad idea because of the fact how easy it is in teamfight and 1 v 1’s to land that one hit with the current feint mechanics.

    This brings me to my next points, what if all the gamemechanics are fixed then how should we change the weapons? Feints will either be extremely powerfull as they currently are, much harder to pull of than they currently are but still a viable mechanic or totaly obsolete for slow weapons.

    Lets go for the most optimistic take and say that feints are doable but it requires more effort to make your opponent fall for the feint which ends up with longer fights(not a bad thing). But the realy problem is that feints are the best mechanic to actually get a hit on your opponent.

    Weapons don’t feel that unique anymore in terms of performance.

    So in my opinion I think we need more ways or mechanics to work our way into getting a hit on our opponent. I realy liked the fast release times in the previous beta, it wasn’t perfect but I can safely say that it was “better” than the live version.

    Combat was exciting and you had to keep on your toes or you would eat a hit. But fast release times won’t cut it, we need “new” mechanics and more differentiated weapons.

    This problem is far less noticable in teamfights because you actually do have an extra set of parameters to work with, the amount of incomming attacks, terrain, ranged etc…

    I don’t know if TB is willing to add game mechanics to their game but I’ll post ones that are realistic in terms of balance and work that TB has to do. Most of it is just proper coding and animation work of already exsisting animations for each weapon.

    The ability to charge your attack: Sounds drastic but my way of implementing it is not THAT drastic. Numbers are not final. I would suggest a full 0.35 s on the windup of an attack in exchange for a 20% extra damage on the base attack, 0.2 shorter release time and if parried a slight knockback and a higher stamina drain on the one who parried the charge attack. If missed a 0.2 recovery extra recovery. I would say costs 55 stamina to do so that it can’t be spammed. Perhaps only doable with two handed weapons including the maa staff or should be limited to the vanguard.

    Animations of a charge attack need to be clearly be differentiated from a normal attack and its non feintable/cancelable.

    Ofcourse these are all speculations and I have no idea how it would work out in teamfights and such but I don’t think it would damage the base game.

    The ability to chamber attacks: See Warband for an already exsisting example. Basically its just when two weapons in release times meet at a certain time the incomming attacks gets pushed back by a timed attack. This incombination with faster release times would mean a very neat skillmove and another way to bypass the parry of your opponent. Infact it already exists in a very buggy way in the game already. It happens when you attack and when your opponent hits your attack while you’re in windup AND press the parry button you’ll parry and attack at the same time. My idea differs from this in the fact that it should happen at the beginning of the release, should be aimed(not sharing the same hitboxes as the parry) and should be blockable ( isn’t with the bug ) you would see his swing coming at you while your weapon is being pushed back by his.

    Here’s some footage to demonstrate the idea, mind you its being shown in a controlled environment and is not as easily done in a real fight: Zlc04jEdH3k

    Oh yea one more thing I’m in the middle of my exam period so I can’t be as active as I want to be, but I’ll be sure to contribute when I have time like now :)

    Anyways I’m eager to see your comments and opinions.

    Didn’t get much support from the balance council. Repost, to see what you guys think of it.



  • Being able to hit someone else’s attack would be neat, but I don’t think it’s very easy to implement in Chivalry because of the realtime strikes. Much easier with canned animations like Blade Symphony and Mount and Blade.

    I don’t agree that we need more mechanics to bypass a parry though, do you not drag your attacks? Intentional misses, varying the timing of your attacks via drags and feints as well as playing range are all ways to get hits around parries and combining them successfully feels great to me.



  • I agree with weapons needing to be balanced with more in mind than just windup, release, combotime and recovery.
    This like you said, has to be balanced after bugs are ironed out and mechanics are mutually agreed upon (See: Feints.)

    As it stands right now most weapons don’t feel unique or they feel unique in the sense that they are just plain worse than other weapons available.
    I don’t have a solution to this problem as I haven’t really sat down and thought about it but it is certianly noticable that the majority of every classes arsenal is hardly used.

    Charge or “Power” attacks seems kind of neat, I don’t think it has a rainy day in hell’s chance of making it in though. I’d like it to be VG exclusive and have it replace the shitty leaping suicide attack that the VG has currently.

    I don’t think chambering would fit well as an official mechanic but, it could be interesting if someone created a mod for it later down the line.
    I just don’t see how it would be implemented. Warband’s combat system is wildly different and was built from the ground up with that mechanic in mind so I don’t think it could be done well in a game that hasn’t been made with it from the beginning.
    On an semi-unrelated note, I wonder if Chivalry will even be relevant after Mount&Blade: Bannerlord comes out. The only reason I bought this game way back when was as a substitute for waiting for Bannerlord.

    ! I also made the mistake of buying that piece of shit War of the Roses first Though, chivalry has its charm and is fun (I’ve sunk nearly 500 hours into it)
    I just hope the devs can crank out some content that will make the game interesting again around the time Bannerlord releases so it doesnt become wasted HD space.



  • Much easier with canned animations like Blade Symphony and Mount and Blade.

    MB and Chivalry both share the same systems (both are “real time” if you want to call it that), the only thing that is different is how the engine handles hit detection.

    Chamber attacks was one of the things on the table during Alpha but couldn’t be implemented due to time constraints. It just basically involved two players deflecting off of each other if they both met in the release phase (slash > slash for example), exactly how Mount and Blade does it (but they don’t have a release phase like Chiv does).

    The purpose of Chambering would be really just to reduce the number of hit trades and need to feint into parry. So if someone does a slash to you, you can slash in an attempt to block it instead of parry and if they feint it, you could ‘panic parry’ in recovery. This would act as another counter to feints, but the risk is in the initial attack and whether you can reach the release phase fast enough. Parry would obviously be the safer option, but you are locked into the parry animation if an enemy feints you.

    Whilst it adds more options and mechanics to the game, it’ll never happen now I think; it’s a fundamental change to the game that would really be better off existing from the beginning.



  • If it would be hard enough to perform (so it’s not happening all the time by accident) I’d really love that feature tbh



  • @Sophax:

    The ability to charge your attack: Sounds drastic but my way of implementing it is not THAT drastic. Numbers are not final. I would suggest a full 0.35 s on the windup of an attack in exchange for a 20% extra damage on the base attack, 0.2 shorter release time and if parried a slight knockback and a higher stamina drain on the one who parried the charge attack. If missed a 0.2 recovery extra recovery. I would say costs 55 stamina to do so that it can’t be spammed. Perhaps only doable with two handed weapons including the maa staff or should be limited to the vanguard.

    If I were designing this system from scratch, I would definitely want to make it have more variation in the attack windup and speeds. Like, the longer you held your attack button down for (up to a certain point), the longer the windup, and the harder the swing. If you didn’t hold it down you’d windup less (whatever the minimum was) and swing sooner but for less damage. It’d add a lot of variety for sure.

    But it wouldn’t have to be just a 2 level (charged or not charged) thing. Could have a linear progress of windup all the way between .2s and .6s or whatever, and vary damage (and perhaps swing speed?) accordingly.



  • @dudeface:

    If I were designing this system from scratch, I would definitely want to make it have more variation in the attack windup and speeds. Like, the longer you held your attack button down for (up to a certain point), the longer the windup, and the harder the swing. If you didn’t hold it down you’d windup less (whatever the minimum was) and swing sooner but for less damage. It’d add a lot of variety for sure.

    But it wouldn’t have to be just a 2 level (charged or not charged) thing. Could have a linear progress of windup all the way between .2s and .6s or whatever, and vary damage (and perhaps swing speed?) accordingly.

    Totally agree.
    This was done in War of the Roses, and it was the only real thing I liked about it’s melee combat.
    Everything else though is total garbage.



  • @Martin:

    Much easier with canned animations like Blade Symphony and Mount and Blade.

    MB and Chivalry both share the same systems (both are “real time” if you want to call it that), the only thing that is different is how the engine handles hit detection.

    Chamber attacks was one of the things on the table during Alpha but couldn’t be implemented due to time constraints. It just basically involved two players deflecting off of each other if they both met in the release phase (slash > slash for example), exactly how Mount and Blade does it (but they don’t have a release phase like Chiv does).

    The purpose of Chambering would be really just to reduce the number of hit trades and need to feint into parry. So if someone does a slash to you, you can slash in an attempt to block it instead of parry and if they feint it, you could ‘panic parry’ in recovery. This would act as another counter to feints, but the risk is in the initial attack and whether you can reach the release phase fast enough. Parry would obviously be the safer option, but you are locked into the parry animation if an enemy feints you.

    Whilst it adds more options and mechanics to the game, it’ll never happen now I think; it’s a fundamental change to the game that would really be better off existing from the beginning.

    I mean in an execution sense, it would be more difficult to have your blades clash because the tracers are paper-thin. The way Blade Symphony does it is rather forgiving, so to make it actually reliable in Chivalry would need a tracer system rework, I think.

    It would be cool though, especially since combo feint to parry is apparently a no-no in Torn Banner’s (Tibbs’) opinion.



  • agreeeeeeeed



  • At first I was like “These are some good ideas”. Then I was like, oh I already commented this. And then I saw that this thread is almost one year old. “Chamber attacks” is still something that might be a cool feature.



  • CAN YOU SPELL NECRO?

    THREAD NECRO!!!



  • I couldn’t hear you over the dead topic rising from the grave.

    You should speak up next time.



  • it would be neat if some of the alt attacks were more alty, like they are with the VG pole arms, I love Alt over head, that thing is crazy ^_^, more weapons need this.



  • Blast from the past when people tried to put effort into their posts and when Martin was still posting.



  • It looks like a lot of thought went into your post, Sophax, (even for back then yaryar) but this game needs new mechanics like I need a hot nail up my pee hole.

    The game is already complex enough. It was complex enough even before we got alt swings back in the day. The last thing this game needs is more mechanical shit, because even if the game got to the point of flawless mechanics, I guarantee one of your ideas would fuck it all up somehow. Alt swings sounded harmless enough, and we got TONS of problems out of that one. I’d even venture to say it still causes issues to this day, whether it be coding or animation.

    The game itself is daunting and challenging enough for prospect players, players that aren’t even shown about 60% of what you can do in Chivalry.

    In my opinion, the game doesn’t need any more mechanics or complexity. It needs to function properly at the mechanical and complextiy level it’s currently at and it has to do this consistently, something this game has never done nor will probably ever do.

    Your theoretical scenario is interesting “What if… everything were fixed”, but you might as well be watching paint dry or masturbating because the discussion can’t go anywhere tangeable. It also depends on everyone sharing a universal “fixed” view of the game, also something this game has never benefited from. A fixed game to me and you would mean broken shit to others and visa versa.



  • @H:

    It looks like a lot of thought went into your post, Sophax, (even for back then yaryar) but this game needs new mechanics like I need a hot nail up my pee hole.

    The game is already complex enough. It was complex enough even before we got alt swings back in the day. The last thing this game needs is more mechanical shit, because even if the game got to the point of flawless mechanics, I guarantee one of your ideas would fuck it all up somehow. Alt swings sounded harmless enough, and we got TONS of problems out of that one. I’d even venture to say it still causes issues to this day, whether it be coding or animation.

    The game itself is daunting and challenging enough for prospect players, players that aren’t even shown about 60% of what you can do in Chivalry.

    In my opinion, the game doesn’t need any more mechanics or complexity. It needs to function properly at the mechanical and complextiy level it’s currently at and it has to do this consistently, something this game has never done nor will probably ever do.

    Your theoretical scenario is interesting “What if… everything were fixed”, but you might as well be watching paint dry or masturbating because the discussion can’t go anywhere tangeable. It also depends on everyone sharing a universal “fixed” view of the game, also something this game has never benefited from. A fixed game to me and you would mean broken shit to others and visa versa.

    Imo all I want out of the game is an inbuilt matchmaking system coupled with more polish and bug fixes.

    Balance can come later.



  • @zombojoe:

    Imo all I want out of the game is an inbuilt matchmaking system coupled with more polish and bug fixes.

    Balance can come later.

    One could argue that there are not enough players close enough nearby for good matchmaking…



  • @Terminally:

    One could argue that there are not enough players close enough nearby for good matchmaking…

    Server browser is much better anyways. Matchmaking doesn’t give you any freedom to choose.



  • @Albatross8:

    Server browser is much better anyways. Matchmaking doesn’t give you any freedom to choose.

    Sort by ping master race reporting in…



  • I just use the steam server browser to see if my friends are on and join from there.