Short Spear Nerf



  • Disclaimer: My main weapon is the heavy javelin so my opinions are obviously biased. I only play with the short spears to troll around in ffa.

    I’m actually of the opposite opinion. I feel much stronger after the patch as a javelin player. Melee is faster and stronger across the board, plus you can still mouse drag to a hilarious degree with them to get around shields. I don’t know what the buckler timings were before patch, though, but I don’t feel much different with those. Different kick options are a plus for everyone.

    Heavy javelin completes its throwing animations .2 seconds faster now compared to the other ones at .1, though. Having the recovery taken from 1 to .65 means I can be more aggressive with my throwing as well. I can tell how far away I have to be to get a throw off, but I have a harder time telling if I’ll have time to react after release. The longer windup makes the “guessing game” of what your opponent does a little bit easier, imo, as it places more uncertainty on the front of your throw rather than what happens after. Before the patch I just died immediately after throwing and whiffing since it took so damn long to get the next one ready.



  • Javelins are overall faster, their timings have just been shifted from recovery to windup. This gives you more time to cancel a throw if you realize it’s a bad idea to wind up and don’t want to suffer the long recovery which often gets you killed, but it also makes winding up a point blank javelin punishable. With buffs to javelin melee, a quick windup javelin point blank would spell death for any melee class without a shield - you just get in a jab and then finish with the practically unavoidable throw.

    Projectile speed wasn’t touched. They should actually be flying a little further on average due to the fix to fps influencing projectile flight paths.

    Also, the shield bash timings were just all set to the timing the javelin used in live. Previously short spear was a little quicker and heavy javelin was a little slower even though they were identical in damage and reach.



  • @SlyGoat:

    Javelins are overall faster, their timings have just been shifted from recovery to windup. This gives you more time to cancel a throw if you realize it’s a bad idea to wind up and don’t want to suffer the long recovery which often gets you killed, but it also makes winding up a point blank javelin punishable. With buffs to javelin melee, a quick windup javelin point blank would spell death for any melee class without a shield - you just get in a jab and then finish with the practically unavoidable throw.

    Projectile speed wasn’t touched. They should actually be flying a little further on average due to the fix to fps influencing projectile flight paths.

    Also, the shield bash timings were just all set to the timing the javelin used in live. Previously short spear was a little quicker and heavy javelin was a little slower even though they were identical in damage and reach.

    At least for me, canceling at short range was almost never a problem. The recovery wasn’t that bad and there was rarely a need to cancel. The only recovery that got people killed was the recovery after throwing a javelin. While I often whined about it, after seeing these changes, I almost think that was a good punishment for javelin archers. That recovery balanced javelin archers at short range, while preserving their ability at medium to longer ranges.

    I’m almost positive projectile speeds were affected, perhaps unintentionally. They do not travel as fast or as far as they used to pre-patch. I am almost 100% certain, maybe it is because of my computer setup or whatnot, but the speeds have changed.

    To be perfectly honest, I would almost prefer the long recovery as javelins are much superior as thrown weapons. This nerf (sorry, but I feel as though it is a nerf) basically means you have to use javelin melee/archer melee at close ranges which is extremely undesirable. I don’t really think the quick windup javs were that much of a problem at short range. Simply because it was such a high risk, high reward maneuver and because javelins have such low ammo counts. I think javelins were much better balanced pre-patch. They were strong throwing weapons, and their melee was used to finish opponents. It really should not be the other way around. It is not as though javelins were overpowered prior to this, I hardly see any competitive players use them (besides a select few) and even then, Xbows and the Warbow can and usually do dominate much harder than javelins.

    I am just curious as to what prompted the balancing? Were they overused? Were they somehow considered overpowered? I know you wanted to compensate for the melee buffs, but in my opinion, they would have been well-balanced if you had buffed their melee and not touched their ranged attacks. They were pretty underpowered to begin with and it took a fair amount of skill to be proficient with javelins. Not to mention, the ammunition counts, which weren’t touched, are a great way to limit their DPS, if that was what the problem was.

    I know they are technically faster as you can throw them in quicker succession, but that really wasn’t the problem. You may have buffed javelin archers at mid range against melee targets, but you made it extremely difficult to counter other archers.



  • Well, most conventional counter-archer positions are made with the heavy crossbow and some cover. Javelins just aren’t cut out to dispatch the buggers, except maybe from behind and close. I’ve only played them enough to unlock all of them, but… they’re a bit more of a skirmish weapon, IMO.



  • @Carolean:

    Well, most conventional counter-archer positions are made with the heavy crossbow and some cover. Javelins just aren’t cut out to dispatch the buggers, except maybe from behind and close. I’ve only played them enough to unlock all of them, but… they’re a bit more of a skirmish weapon, IMO.

    I agree, before however there was at least a good chance you might be able to hit an archer from long range. Now, it is needlessly difficult with the long windup and what I believe to be, bugged projectile speed at the moment.

    The increased windup time has basically taken away the javelin archer’s one advantage in close to medium range combat, and that is the thrown javelin. There is no incentive for javelin archers to be in melee and there is nothing at all remarkable about javelin melee.



  • This is where playstyles differ. I feel much safer throwing javelins at close range now. My principle fear was the second of recovery that follows my throw, since I’ll have no idea what my opponent will follow up with. With that smaller window after the patch, I can get my shield back up to block more often now. All I have to do is just throw from a bit longer range and duck for my life if I get it wrong.



  • @dilbadil:

    This is where playstyles differ. I feel much safer throwing javelins at close range now. My principle fear was the second of recovery that follows my throw, since I’ll have no idea what my opponent will follow up with. With that smaller window after the patch, I can get my shield back up to block more often now. All I have to do is just throw from a bit longer range and duck for my life if I get it wrong.

    Fair, but I myself find it much safer to take opponents down at medium range with thrown javelins before they can get to me. I find the longer windup makes it so difficult to actually hit and or use them at close range, never mind even trying them at long range now. And with javelin melee being what it is, especially with short spears, I am still very much a sad panda.

    Btw dilbadil, have you noticed the difference in projectile speeds? I know they say they haven’t changed them, but they feel distinctly slower to me. I play on a laptop so I dont quite get 60fps, which could be one of the reasons, but their speed feels so off.

    EDIT: Case in point, I just hit an archer with a short spear at close range in the upper torso after somehow making it all the way to him. He takes the javelin, and oneshots me under my buckler with his xbow. Totally fair. Practically every other archer weapon got buffed, but for some reason the already underpowered javelins were nerfed in my opinion. Very sad.

    Or the other scenario that basically happens all the time now because of the windup time. I raise up a javelin to throw, I get hit by an arrow which, A). throws off my shot since their projectile speed is faster and it flinches me or B). oneshots me and my javelin disappears.



  • @SlyGoat:

    Javelins are overall faster, their timings have just been shifted from recovery to windup. This gives you more time to cancel a throw if you realize it’s a bad idea to wind up and don’t want to suffer the long recovery which often gets you killed, but it also makes winding up a point blank javelin punishable. With buffs to javelin melee, a quick windup javelin point blank would spell death for any melee class without a shield - you just get in a jab and then finish with the practically unavoidable throw.

    Even taking play style into account, changing the timing of when a button is pressed to when the jav is released is the key time that messes with all your hard work in learning how to aim and prediction. Let’s break this down a little:

    Let’s call this the 'Full Jav Cycle Time. From when the LMB is pressed to when you are ready to throw the second jav.

    old = LMB + 0.4s (release) + 0.9s (recovery) = 1.3s
    new = lmb + 0.6s (release) + 0.6s (recovery) = 1.2s

    The 0.4 / 0.6 release time is the key time here. As a jav or any projectile player knows, you don’t aim where the player is, you predict where they’re going. With many hours of practice, you’ve gotten good at reading players and predicting in the next 0.4s, where the player might be and where you should aim for based on your distance / trajectory.

    Now changing that, everything has to be relearned from scratch. The release timing is most important in a projectile based player.

    Other things that are also affected because of the timing change. I play both a close and long range jav.

    As a close range, I rely on being able to run away and pull a quick one. I also like using my foot work to fool players into thinking I’ll come in for a stab, they get ready to hit, I go back and do a quick release. This can no longer be done anymore.

    In addition, sure it’s 0.1s faster overall ‘jav cycle time’ but the enemy player now has 0.2 s longer to hit me and have a chance to interrupt before your jav is released. So prepatch, the player would’ve been dead but post patch, I get killed because I get hit / interrupted.

    As a long range jav, since the timing has changed, it’s been really hard for me to predict where the enemies are. I now have an extra 0.2s from when I press the LMB to release. Previously, the player has 0.4s to move around, now the player has 0.6s to dodge / duck / run and I have to continually track them for 0.2s more. Not only does this give the enemy player more time to change course, it takes many hours to get used to the new timing.

    All this change is make me miss enemies faster and be able to block a bit faster. I don’t care much for recovery if I can’t hit anything.

    I could go on but I’m just a bit disappointed in the changes thus far. All patches so far, I have had no complaints. I also play a knight and use the SOW, that’s been nerfed too but I’m not complaining. This though, this I just don’t understand.



  • The time that was increased was the windup, not the release. There is absolutely nothing preventing you from readjusting your aim during that windup, or even beyond it considering you can hold a throw readied indefinitely. If you were aiming .4 seconds into the future before… you should rethink how you’re playing :? I don’t have any more difficulty hitting people with the warbow than the shortbow, and the difference in draw speed there is far more than .2

    @Other guy - yes, it was intentional that you have to use your melee up close with javelins. That’s the point of the weapon; they’re a ranged/melee hybrid. And it is wholly possible that your machine is what caused the perceived drop in projectile speed/range, since previously people with very low FPS were getting faster and straighter projectile trajectories.



  • Javelin Counsel Member Los

    Notes

    -One of the three things has been changed for the better in the patch.

    -1. Ammo pickup off of ground and bodies is a lot better. The ammobox reset bug is still in place though.

    -2. The overhead shield bash is still to short. (Minor increase needed)

    -3. The melee stab range is still to short on all javelins. (Minor increase needed.

    -Additional notes-

    Major bug: Every now in then you see your shield turn around and you cant cook(hold throw mode) your javelin. It goes into a auto throw.Quite troublesome.



  • @LosPepe’s:

    Javelin Counsel Member Los

    Notes

    -One of the three things has been changed for the better in the patch.

    -1. Ammo pickup off of ground and bodies is a lot better. The ammobox reset bug is still in place though.

    -2. The overhead shield bash is still to short. (Minor increase needed)

    -3. The melee stab range is still to short on all javelins. (Minor increase needed.

    -Additional notes-

    Major bug: Every now in then you see your shield turn around and you cant cook(hold throw mode) your javelin. It goes into a auto throw.Quite troublesome.

    Yes, I am loving the ammo pickup from bodies and the terrain.

    My point being, Slygoat, I can accept the timing changes for the windup even if I personally dislike them because I know a lot of other players have said it hasn’t affected them too much or they were still adapting. However, the problem with javelins being a hybrid/melee weapon is that, as Los pointed out, javelins are completely inferior in melee.

    The first obvious drawback is that javelineers have the same armor class as regular archers. This essentially means that every weapon in the game either one or two shot kills a javelineer, even daggers I believe. Since a javelineer has to be closer to his opponents than normal archers, you are basically inviting every single class in the game to attack you, including other archers and the inevitable team damage. For the most part, bow archers can safely stay much farther behind their own team and pick people off. Besides for the occasional flanker, their only real concern is other archers or preparing for a push (where hopefully they have their own melee backup). Now, this wouldn’t be so much of a problem if javelins actually had a decent melee but at the moment, they do not. It is better in almost every situation to pull out your secondary without the buckler since you can riposte, feint, combo, and have greater vision/mobility. As Los pointed out, the shield bash, though you fixed the tracers, now has even worse range than pre-patch. The javelin stabs are difficult to land, perhaps a tracer issue or their range is too short, and do mediocre damage. You cannot combo with javelins and at the moment, because the windups are so short or because of some other bug, you can barely feint (half the time you can feint, but since it is such a pitiful feint, I can only imagine that it would screw with people’s timing maybe half the time, if you are lucky). There are only two attacks, as I’ve mentioned, and they come from extremely predictable angles. At least with the archer secondaries, even if you don’t like feinting, you can maneuver around your opponent and strike from multiple angles. Being forced to use the buckler exposes yourself to people dancing around you, kick stuns, and makes it almost impossible to fight multiple opponents. Add in the javelin melee, and like I’ve said before, I’d much rather have a dagger, shortsword, cudgel or saber.

    At the moment, you might as well just use a sling or even a shortbow since it has much higher damage output and is effective at the same and greater ranges than javelins. Not to mention, the melee is far superior. I guess the supposed advantage of javelins is the buckler, but if you play enough, you will find that it hardly protects you from other archers.

    Please don’t misunderstand me, I really appreciate all of what the devs have done (even if I don’t agree with practically all of it this patch) and I am not trying to be antagonistic. But javelins were my favorite weapon and this patch basically completely screwed my playstyle. I am just trying to give my feedback on what I perceive to be the problems in a civil and rational manner and hopefully improve the javelin class. Best wishes TB.



  • @LosPepe’s:

    Javelin Counsel Member Los
    -3. The melee stab range is still to short on all javelins. (Minor increase needed.

    Oh my, maybe give the short spear some love, but the heavy javelin is quite nasty in melee now (for a javelin). Don’t give that thing any more range or I may actually become a decent player (gasp!).

    I don’t think you should be able to retrieve javelins from live players though, that just seems silly.

    And SHH___, I haven’t felt any difference with the speed of the javelins. I tend to throw close up though, so I don’t have to lead my targets as much as you do. I always was terrible with the longer range shots, heck that’s why I picked the javelins in the first place.



  • @dilbadil:

    @LosPepe’s:

    Javelin Counsel Member Los
    -3. The melee stab range is still to short on all javelins. (Minor increase needed.

    Oh my, maybe give the short spear some love, but the heavy javelin is quite nasty in melee now (for a javelin). Don’t give that thing any more range or I may actually become a decent player (gasp!).

    I don’t think you should be able to retrieve javelins from live players though, that just seems silly.

    And SHH___, I haven’t felt any difference with the speed of the javelins. I tend to throw close up though, so I don’t have to lead my targets as much as you do. I always was terrible with the longer range shots, heck that’s why I picked the javelins in the first place.

    Oh and yeah, I meant the short spear melee in general. Standard javelin melee is decent, and the heavy javelin has always been decent to acceptable in melee, though both could stand more minor buffs.

    I think it was my computer. I only get about 30fps, and Sly just mentioned that lower FPS increased projectile speed, so I guess I’ve been a bit spoiled prior to this, haha. If this really is the correct projectile speed, I was living quite a life beforehand.



  • lower FPS increased projectile speed

    ……that’s pretty funny



  • These changes are for the current progression of the weapon.

    Things to fully make the javelineer in my opinion balanced to the bow users…

    -more armor, better shield(jav only bronze shield), and movement speed.

    Is not the direction that TB wants to take javelins in.

    Less AOC more peltalist skirmisher tactics.



  • @LosPepe’s:

    These changes are for the current progression of the weapon.

    Things to fully make the javelineer in my opinion balanced to the bow users…

    -more armor, better shield(jav only bronze shield), and movement speed.

    Is not the direction that TB wants to take javelins in.

    Less AOC more peltalist skirmisher tactics.

    Yes, I agree with you entirely Los, I am sad to hear that that is not their vision as well.

    You know, quite honestly, even when I had the increased projectile speed due to my FPS, I was still at the mercy of pretty much any decent xbow/bow archer. The changes to the windup only gave bow users a greater advantage this patch. I would love to see some of those changes, because it would actually allow javelin users to be useful instead of being prey to normal archers, and trying to enter melee as the weakest class, in terms of armor and weapons.

    It would finally give them a distinct role and allow them to excel at both melee and ranged combat, instead of being subpar at both.



  • atm reach level 34…most play using javelin

    thing which i like most with short spear is doing quick throw while in melee combat…
    ex
    shield attack > stab > shield bash > throw
    or melee attack > running away > throw
    with new wind-up now it little bit slower to do :(

    for fight against archer, yea i also can score those long range throw with short jav but it not that efficient and after all ,short jav not 1 shot archer…

    i prefer using javelin for hunting archer (1 shoted archer and still have good range)

    IMO : myb need time to get used with new wind-up , atm it make me missed my throw so much but the new recovery sometime give me another chance to survive enemy melee charge :)



  • 0.3s windup on throw was ridiculous. I don’t know why any other justification is even needed. Short spear got the awkward speed buff a few patches ago and I’m glad there’s another approach now.



  • @Torrenz:

    0.3s windup on throw was ridiculous. I don’t know why any other justification is even needed. Short spear got the awkward speed buff a few patches ago and I’m glad there’s another approach now.

    Not really, it was already underpowered compared to pretty much any bow. All that happens now with the increased windup is that you get shot in the gut by the now lightning fast arrows/xbow bolts.



  • @SHH_:

    @Torrenz:

    0.3s windup on throw was ridiculous. I don’t know why any other justification is even needed. Short spear got the awkward speed buff a few patches ago and I’m glad there’s another approach now.

    Not really, it was already underpowered compared to pretty much any bow. All that happens now with the increased windup is that you get shot in the gut by the now lightning fast arrows/xbow bolts.

    I refuse to believe you’d be this attached to the short spear if you didn’t take full advantage of the powerful and very forgiving point blank throws. If you cared about other archers in the slightest you wouldn’t be complaining about the short spear in particular, which notably cannot oneshot archers like the javelins do. Archers are your least concern, you just want to bully the poor melees by flicking spears around like boogers.

    @SHH_:

    It would finally give them a distinct role and allow them to excel at both melee and ranged combat, instead of being subpar at both.

    And their “distinct role” would be? Being good at all roles?
    It is my opinion that versatility must come at a price. Javelin archers need to be the worst ranged and the worst melee (except regular archers). Just being adaptable should be their greatest strength.


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