The low population, High Skill based game conundrum



  • The current patch has highlighted the most significant issue Chivalry and TB face:

    The game is almost exclusively Skill Based. This means that a High rank player is extreamly unlikely to die to a low rank player in single combat. This is incredibly frustrating and not rewarding to a new player in an established game.

    ‘Ahh, Toll they have Rank Restricted servers!’ I hear you say. The game has too low a population for rank based servers to work efficiently in most countries.

    An example at 9:00am weekday’s you would be lucky to find more than 1 populated server. Weekends might see 2 populated servers at 9:00am.

    Now the reason I say 9:00am is important, as this dictates for the rest of the day which servers get populated.
    Now the people MOST likely to populate an empty server to get players to come in, are the hardcore players. These players are very very very unlikely to be below rank 30, thus any rank restricted servers to get populated from 0 players and up are more likely to be rank 30+ servers. The less hardcore players will fire up Chiv, look at the server list and go hmmm only 1 server has players on it and it is rank restricted and I can’t play. ‘Meh’ they say as they close Chivalry and fire up some other game, probably Dota2 or TF2 or something that is guaranteed to have many servers populated at any time of the day.

    So, in Australia at least, we can’t really have rank restricted servers otherwise the low rank people will never get to play at any time other than 3:00pm-10pm.

    The player base simple isn’t big enough for ranked servers with reasonable pings (<100) in most countries. US and maybe EU can do it, maybe. Therefore, rank restricted servers is NOT the answer to the above problem.

    **And here lays the big problem that the Dev’s must be scratching their head over.

    The game is heavily skill based, therefore high skill players will simply stomp low skilled players, almost every single time. Counter strike for instance has that bit of randomness in it, it allows a low skill player to sometimes kill a high skill player, enough to keep them interested. Not so in Chivalry, A rank 50 player will almost never die to a rank 1 player, not with out doing something terribly wrong or silly. This is frustrating for low level players, a rank 1-10 person playing on servers with heaps of rank 30+'s playing, yer they don’t stand much of a chance.**

    So the Dev’s look at their mechanics to try and give those lower rank players more of a chance, they have done this by taking away some of the high level skills that allow a high rank player to survive, giving the low rank player more of a chance to occasionally kill the high rank player if he makes a mistake or two (previously quick thinking would allow the high rank player to recover from his mistake). They may not have intentionally done this, but surely it would be on their minds.

    So the answer you ask? Well no-one seems to know.

    If someone can come up with a creative way that allows low rank players to play High rank players and give them a fighting chance WITHOUT taking away skill from the game or introducing random elements to the game I’m sure the Dev’s would love to hear it. As it stands there seems to be nothing that can be done to give low rank players a chance without fundamentally changing what chivalry is about, skill based combat.
    Sure we can have teaching servers, where high rank players join to teach low rank players the tricks of the trade, however again the population is small, this may help but not efficiently.

    ProMod seems to be giving this a shot, however having two different Chivalry streams only splits the playerbase up. Perhaps it will work out well, with most of the high rank players playing on the ‘Advanced Chivalry’ servers whilst the newbies play on the Stock Chivalry servers. I have concern then that Stock Chivalry servers will not have any players at all at 9:00am in the morning, making it pretty unlikely to get filled by softcore players at any time…



  • skill based

    lol, wrong, a lot of the “skill” clannies pretend to have was just really how effectively you could abuse an exploit. Hell, I was in a server a month ago where a rank 5 who was 32-1 who swore he just got the game and watched a few youtube tutorials on a hatchet overhead-lookdown exploit.

    He literally did nothing but stare at the ground and use the overhead with the hatchet and he was unstoppable.

    This game is lulzy, this game is silly fun. No game where you can have two teams of laughing maa’s duel each other a the log bridge with quarterstaves should ever be called competitive.



  • skill based

    lol, wrong, a lot of the “skill” clannies pretend to have was just really how effectively you could abuse an exploit. Hell, I was in a server a month ago where a rank 5 who was 32-1 who swore he just got the game and watched a few youtube tutorials on a hatchet overhead-lookdown exploit.

    He literally did nothing but stare at the ground and use the overhead with the hatchet and he was unstoppable.

    Please don’t turn this into a debate about ‘what is skill’ for the purpose of this thread the ‘clannies’ doing what you say, where using a practice, defined skill with no random chance to it. It was still methodical and thus covered in the scope of my original post above. It matters not if it was too easy or too hard to perform/defend against.

    Thank you.



  • defined skill with no random chance to it. It was still methodical and thus covered in the scope of my original post above. It matters not if it was too easy or too hard to perform/defend against.

    Oh, so you basically admit that a lot of the “skill” in high-rank fighters is just exploiting previous flaws in the combat system?

    Thank you.



  • 2maidens1chalice hit the nail on the head.



  • I think the players who don’t think it’s skill based are just unskilled. :/

    Anyway, when I joined the game before it was even released there were already look down overhead Bardiches everywhere, as well as clans and of course the old old halberd and Norse sword. I went 3-35 consistently in my first matches, and I absolutely loved every second of it. I loved reading the forums, I loved asking questions, I loved getting owned and discovering why and how I could get better. I started finding class setups that I enjoyed and experimented with different strategies and styles and learned how to do this and that. It was a very enjoyable experience. The game still has at least 1500 on it normally and right now has 2700 with the sale on a friday night. I think the lowest I’ve seen is like 800 at what, 4 AM sometime EST.? The game is far from “low population.”

    Anyone who gets turned off by the deep combat system and leaves probably wasn’t meant for this game.



  • This one’s a write-off. I’m looking forward to Chiv 3.



  • @Toll:

    skill based

    lol, wrong, a lot of the “skill” clannies pretend to have was just really how effectively you could abuse an exploit. Hell, I was in a server a month ago where a rank 5 who was 32-1 who swore he just got the game and watched a few youtube tutorials on a hatchet overhead-lookdown exploit.

    He literally did nothing but stare at the ground and use the overhead with the hatchet and he was unstoppable.

    Please don’t turn this into a debate about ‘what is skill’ for the purpose of this thread the ‘clannies’ doing what you say, where using a practice, defined skill with no random chance to it. It was still methodical and thus covered in the scope of my original post above. It matters not if it was too easy or too hard to perform/defend against.

    Thank you.

    You can brush off 2maiden said all you want but unfortunately what he said is true. A substantial chunk of what clannies use is just exploit abuse to the extreme. That is the kind of crap which causes new players just hit alt-f4 and go play another game. I’m a member of several other gaming forums and every time Chivalry is mentioned the common response is “lol don’t bother everyone just abuses cheap shit and feints”.

    I have actually run into a few players that take pride in being “purists” and that they don’t use any of the common exploit tactics. Even though they’re decent players they still die to newbies sometimes. This isn’t because they suck - it’s because they didn’t pound the newbie into a paste in 0.000005 nanoseconds using some bullshit exploit so he actually stood a chance.

    The clannies may kick and scream but we need to break this reliance on cheap BS and exploit abuse if this game has any hope of retaining players. If it means bringing in some more balanced mechanics then so be it, but the current situation isn’t healthy.



  • You really cannot argue that this game isn’t skill based, and that there isn’t a fairly large gap between newbies and veterans. Even if a newbie could kill a vet 1 out of 20 times, that doesn’t disprove the existence of this gap at all.

    I don’t even know what you’re trying to achieve by making this argument other than “hurr hurr clannie exploits” which is hyperbolic and a waste of time. Anyone who plays this game long enough is going to know most of these “exploits” whether they are in a clan or not. High ranked pubbies know these things.



  • @dudeface:

    I don’t even know what you’re trying to achieve by making this argument other than “hurr hurr clannie exploits” which is hyperbolic and a waste of time. Anyone who plays this game long enough is going to know most of these “exploits” whether they are in a clan or not. High ranked pubbies know these things.

    Just to clarify: “Clannie” is a term coined by Greg and refers to a type of player, not a person in a clan specifically. It’s just that it’s more typical of clans but not exclusive to them.

    I don’t think newbies really have a problem getting defeated or killed. They either stick around or leave after taking punishment for awhile and come back again. The thing that makes them ragequit and never come back is when they get repeatedly vaporized by maneuvers which they could do NOTHING about. Not only is a veteran player going to beat a newbie 99% of the time but throw some exploits in there and the newbie will be slaughtered before they even get the chance to swing their sword. Defeating (or even hitting, in some cases) their opponent is simply impossible. If they just bought the game and this is their first impression then chances are they are going to leave and probably won’t come back for quite some time. As much as people like to poke fun at others for ragequitting or saying they’re stupid and impatience - newbies are NOT stupid and they know when something shows enough potential to bear through the learning curve. If this wasn’t the case I wouldn’t be seeing familiar faces who have gained ranks since I last saw them. It isn’t enough though and this game is shedding players. It’s already lost some since last patch. I’m starting to have problems finding populated TO and Duel servers.

    It is unfortunate that the veteran community is content with this game being on-route to the graveyard.



  • the difference between skilled player and non skilled…

    skilled player sees the other “skilled player” using what an unexperienced player would refer to as an expoloitative mechanic….

    skilled player will crush the player using that mechanic/exploit because he knows how it works and can defend and attack against it and make that player doing stupid dumb shit look like an idiot for doing something stupid.

    lets say you’re a tall guy and keep hitting your head on a door that’s too low for you to pass through smoothly. Unskilled player keeps hitting his head on the doorframe, and apparently never learns from it. Skilled player ducks to get through the door. That’s the difference in metaphor.

    the end.



  • So basically what you’re saying is, clayton….That…

    All good players hide their power level?



  • I’ve noticed that te Re players coming in a doing better afterte patch. As all the high skill long time players are still adapting.



  • @2maidens1chalice:

    skill based

    lol, wrong, a lot of the “skill” clannies pretend to have was just really how effectively you could abuse an exploit. Hell, I was in a server a month ago where a rank 5 who was 32-1 who swore he just got the game and watched a few youtube tutorials on a hatchet overhead-lookdown exploit.

    He literally did nothing but stare at the ground and use the overhead with the hatchet and he was unstoppable.

    This game is lulzy, this game is silly fun. No game where you can have two teams of laughing maa’s duel each other a the log bridge with quarterstaves should ever be called competitive.

    lol

    i got 79-0 recently, guess everyone can pull that off then



  • FARKEN!

    I didn’t reply to that dude because I had hopes this thread wouldn’t devolve into a skill vs no-skill debate.

    Since it has I will point out that my original post still holds true even if you feverantly believe that the game is a bunch of exploits, it still takes skill over random dumb luck to use those exploits if they exist or not.

    There is no random element to this game, none enough to change allow a level 1 player to randomly kill a lvl 50 player. One could have argued pre-patch that feints kind of did that, except it took a reasonable amount of playing to learn when to apply feints, around level 15-20 people seemed to begin to be effective with it.

    In Counter Strike, a low skill player could pick up an AK and spam it in the general direction of his enemy, he would perhaps kill that enemy 15% of the time or so. Sure the high skilled player would us the same AK and take 1-shtos at peoples heads and generally play a lot safer/better and achieve, on average, far far better.

    So I say again exploit or no exploits, this game is based on NON RANDOM CHANCE killing of other people (for the continuing thread I will call that skill, whatever its form, as long as it is not random chance). Because of this, low level players have a very difficult time with the game against high level players.

    i got 79-0 recently, guess everyone can pull that off then

    79/0 that is truly impressive regardless of the rank of players on the server. My best was 56/4 in a 24 person FFA match. My hats off to you sire.



  • @Toll:

    FARKEN!

    I didn’t reply to that dude because I had hopes this thread wouldn’t devolve into a skill vs no-skill debate.

    Since it has I will point out that my original post still holds true even if you feverantly believe that the game is a bunch of exploits, it still takes skill over random dumb luck to use those exploits if they exist or not.

    There is no random element to this game, none enough to change allow a level 1 player to randomly kill a lvl 50 player. One could have argued pre-patch that feints kind of did that, except it took a reasonable amount of playing to learn when to apply feints, around level 15-20 people seemed to begin to be effective with it.

    In Counter Strike, a low skill player could pick up an AK and spam it in the general direction of his enemy, he would perhaps kill that enemy 15% of the time or so. Sure the high skilled player would us the same AK and take 1-shtos at peoples heads and generally play a lot safer/better and achieve, on average, far far better.

    So I say again exploit or no exploits, this game is based on NON RANDOM CHANCE killing of other people (for the continuing thread I will call that skill, whatever its form, as long as it is not random chance). Because of this, low level players have a very difficult time with the game against high level players.

    these are part of the reasons why i love this game



  • these are part of the reasons why i love this game

    Excatly this is why I love the game too. The problem as I wrote, is how do you make the game fun for new, low skill players (who will learn to be much better) WITHOUT fundamentally changing what chivalry is about, applying NON-RANDOM-CHANCE skills against an opponent?

    ProMod will help, perhaps, if the player numbers sustain both Stock Chivalry and ProMod…



  • @Del:

    So basically what you’re saying is, clayton….That…

    All good players hide their power level?

    i’m saying a skilled player learns to overcome an obstacle, whilst a unskilled player keeps repeating the same mistake over and over.



  • That’s where team play comes in OP. Let’s say you and your buddies all get chivlary and are new to the game. You’ve played for a few days now but you’re still a beginner. You’re having a hard time with that rank 50 archer who’s 25-0. But then, suddenly, you realize that if you team up, you can work together and take him down.
    At least that’s how I see it, as I play TO all the time. In a 1v1 setting of course the more skilled player should win almost all the time (if the skill gap is massive). The only way the better player would lose is if they made a silly mistake, which does happen though, because they are human.



  • @Toll:

    these are part of the reasons why i love this game

    Excatly this is why I love the game too. The problem as I wrote, is how do you make the game fun for new, low skill players (who will learn to be much better) WITHOUT fundamentally changing what chivalry is about, applying NON-RANDOM-CHANCE skills against an opponent?

    ProMod will help, perhaps, if the player numbers sustain both Stock Chivalry and ProMod…

    how do we help new players? idk maybe they should do what we all did… .watch tutorials and better people play the game, observe and learn a thing or two, then implement it to your gameplay while choosing your own style. Shit plenty of games you need to watch tutorials and things to fully understand… why do we have to make it easier? Why can’t people just watch a youtube video or two?


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