Currently Discussing Combo Feint Parry



  • I wanted to share with the larger community what we have been discussing about combo feint parry on the balance council. Big disclaimer is these are ideas and are no way guaranteed to happen or even will happen. Current live might stick around or something new might come. I just wanted to see the larger communities input on this discussion.

    The first thing I want to outline is the reason why combo feint parry is even being messed around with it the first place. Basically before this change comboing was the best aggressive and defensive action you could perform. It allowed you to offensively threaten your opponent while at the same allowing you more protection by bypassing recovery parry lockout. The only time you wouldn’t combo was at low stamina making it a very one dimensional spam fest.

    Adding the smart decision whether you want to be more aggressive (combo) or more defensive (single strike) was the design goal we are trying to accomplish. By allowing you to parry in recovery at a stamina cost and not parry out of combos we have accomplished this. The problem is the ability to pull off clutch 1vN’s, other classes vs MAA, and overall control fluidity has been hindered with this change.

    Here’s slygoats idea on combo feint parry:

    _"I’m actually thinking actions like combo feint parry and recovery parry should not have a flat stamina cost, they should multiply the cost of the parry. That would help with MaA bleeding stamina because their weapons don’t have high stamina drain, and make combo feint parrying a maul with a lighter weapon absolutely devastating which it should be.

    So rather than something like 30 stamina to combo feint parry 15 stamina to parry in recovery etc. it’d be 2x stamina drain from combo feint parry 1.5x stamina drain from recovery parry (or whatever makes the most sense).

    That would make the stamina cost of combo feint parry range from 16 to 50 if it were doubled. Might be interesting to see."_

    I really like this idea, because it adds a proper penalty to combo feint parry, but at the same time focuses it’s effect on weapons that need it the most to function properly (slower weapons). Not allowing MAA’s to stamina drain you with their cheaper dodge is also a great benefit.

    What do you guys think? Have you grown accustomed to the changes or would you like see some form of combo feint parry back in live?



  • Seems solid. Kind of further buffs the Maul though.



  • Many, many times I mentioned that the reason people over use a skill like feinting or combo-feint-parry is because both the direct cost and opportunity cost of using it was far, far too cheap.

    It is a no brainer for most players pre-patch to use combo’s and have combo-feint-parry as a backup because it was simply incredibly cheap to perform. Bumping up the stamina cost and/or reducing the output damage increases both direct cost and opportunity cost of performing the action. Thus you will have to think about retaining enough stamina to do it vs how much stamina you will have left over after you do it, and what else could you have done with that stamina instead.

    Therefore, I agree with the above solution in essence. Making the cost of the action more. Compare it to the cost of a kick for instance, combo-=feint-parry was immensely more useful then a kick and cost about the same…



  • Adding even more stamina costs would be a mistake. Already I can see that running out of stamina happens much more often than it used to, even in short fights. With that in mind, I’d prefer if combo feint parry stays just the way it is.

    I still am hoping for reduced recovery times on a lot of weapons. That would both speed up the game somewhat (so the game doesn’t feel slow!) and would alleviate stamina costs as the new panic parry would not be so necessary.



  • That would make the stamina cost of combo feint parry range from 16 to 50 if it were doubled

    Except that part, which is incorrect.

    Any attack with less than 17 negation (which is a fair few attacks) attacking a Halberd/Maul = (A number less than 17, subtract 17) * 2 = ZERO stamina lost from combo feint to parry

    Maul attacking a Dagger = 29 * 2 = 58 stamina lost from combo feint to parry

    So it would actually range from 0 to 58. I don’t believe people truly want this. I believe people just want CFTP back, in it’s former glory with no cooldown, whilst costing something like a flat 15-18 stamina a pop excluding the stamina damage from the two weapons involved which happens on the actual parry & deflect (which ranges from 0 to about 20 or so at the highest level), which should stay separate so you never get any free or extremely low cost CFTPs.



  • @Martin:

    That would make the stamina cost of combo feint parry range from 16 to 50 if it were doubled

    Except that part, which is incorrect.

    Any attack with less than 17 negation (which is a fair few attacks) attacking a Halberd/Maul = (A number less than 17, subtract 17) * 2 = ZERO stamina lost from combo feint to parry

    Maul attacking a Dagger = 29 * 2 = 58 stamina lost from combo feint to parry

    So it would actually range from 0 to 58. I don’t believe people truly want this. I believe people just want CFTP back, in it’s former glory with no cooldown, whilst costing something like a flat 15-18 stamina a pop excluding the stamina damage from the two weapons involved which happens on the actual parry & deflect (which ranges from 0 to about 20 or so at the highest level), which should stay separate so you never get any free or extremely low cost CFTPs.

    Didn’t they rework how stamina is drained? Is this still the same system?



  • This is the brand new system this patch.



  • I for one don’t want any more poorly thought out overcomplicated mechanical changes and that’s what it sounds like is being proposed.

    The old CFTP was fine, it kept options in and made fighting seem more viceral as you had a myriad of options.

    The only things I ever wanted from the patch was a MAA dodge nerf.
    And something to remedy the Hit-Combo-Feint-Attack meta that was prevelant in the “competitive” community.
    I’ve already posted about this before but it didn’t seem to gather much attention or criticism latest post about it;

    ! I think it’s funny that there isn’t much of a commotion about feints at the moment because of the backlash of the latest patch.
    !
    ! Anywho, I’d like to beat the dead horse little.
    !
    ! This idea I don’t think has gotten enough attention.
    ! I think it’s a much better solution to the feinting “issue” than changing how much of your attack you can feint, timings and the god awful idea of an audio “grunt” queue.
    !
    ! It ties in with the parry out of recovery mechanic pretty nicely, it was implemented by a bug on accident in one of the betas and everyone seemed to think it was on purpose and completely dismissed the idea.
    !
    ! It would just be a second parry that you could queue in recovery for the cost of 25 stamina.
    ! If you land the second parry you would be unable to riposte, this would maintain the attackers favor in the momentum of the fight and the stamina management.
    !
    ! Perhaps even further the “panic” parry would have a longer recovery time than a normal parry but NOT a longer active parry window.
    !
    ! The “panic” parry would NOT be able to be comboed into anything else, you either parry the attack or you miss and have to recover.
    !
    ! This is a simple and intuitive fix. This doens’t give the defender the advantage it just eliminates the 50/50 that feinting and combo feinting creates.
    !
    ! I don’t believe any amount of timing tweaking or stamina cost tweaking is going to solve the issue, the problem the entire time was with parrying.
    !
    ! I doubt this will ever see the light of day though, TB and a lot of the community is set on feinting be the end all be all to land a hit on an opponent who’s learned how to parry.
    !
    ! Rev up dem mods people.

    And a little weapon balance variety, which we got in some form or another.



  • There’s a minimum of 8 and a maximum of 25 stamina loss, Martin.



  • @SlyGoat:

    There’s a minimum of 8 and a maximum of 25 stamina loss, Martin.

    So that’s even worse than the old system then, as heavier weapons took no stamina loss from much lighter weapons when parrying them, and the max was something like 17 IIRC. No wonder people are reporting being out of stamina with the amount of things that actually take stamina among the increases.



  • Still 16 stam seems like nothing for a weapon that can kill you in one or two hits.

    I actually like it the way it is. I still see comboing with smaller weapons and even the big ones can use it if they stay at range. Of course this is more true in groupfights than it is in duels.

    Really what is the problem? I think the only thing that it really hurts is your ability to fight multiple opponents. Do you really think its healthy having unbeatable pros in the game who do not need to work with the lower ranks cause they can just own everyone?

    I think its a good thing that engaging more than one enemy has become really hard. That way the pros will maybe team up with noobs…

    Ans yes Im talking about public servers, because thats the way most players play the game.



  • I’ve never been either a fan or hater of the Combo Feint to Parry move that was heavily used through out High skill gameplay, and we can definently see that a move such as that is required when it comes to the enviroment where you may or may not face more than one opponent at the same time. Combo Feint to Parry was often a move used to strike opponent One, then cancel out of the combo to perform a parry to ward of opponent Two’s attack, then using your couner-attack to attack either. Without a possability to make a Parry as your sort of Second combo move would end up making the teamobjective scene very dull by making it seem pretty impossible to fight more than one due to the factor that you most of the time have to focus one person and once you commit to your attack, you have to wait for a time till you can react to any other possible opponents around you or your current opponent, through that moment where you have to wait, you stand pretty much vulnerable due to not being able to do something to prevent opponent Two to hit you, So after a Couple of Betas we can clearly see that such move is necessary for the game. Though I must say that I pretty much support the new introduction of a new combo move. The Combo parry that can be made by queueing a parry during the release phase of your weapons, it will instantly perform a parry manouver instead of letting your weapon proceed to recovery phase, now if you perform a offensive combo manouver, you are forced to wait for 0.4 seconds before you can pull off a Parry, despite this long time you MIGHT get really lucky sometimes and pull it off. However, I like the seperation of these two manouvers due to the fact that it takes away the Forgiveness move that is heavily used, Now you have to either Commit into a Combo attack or Combo parry which I believe makes the game need more skill, also I’d like to point out that the change of the Combo Parry makes it pretty hard to pull off in One-versus-One as a forgiving move if you miss calculated your opponents distance and missed him, its not suppose to work like that in my opinion, Its a move there for you to be able to possibly Combo Parry in a One versus many situation. There is no longer this dull situation where you will always use this combo feint to parry move as your forgiveness move, Lets say you Attack opponent One, then mindlessly start another combo just because you could pull off a second attack, feint him or why not actually? Bam, you see that opponent Two starts their attack and tries to hit you, you instantly go from winding up your combo to a instant-parry.

    Also would like to add that I like the new Feint-windup, also reduces the amount of Feint parry spams that existed in the previous live version, but I’d also like to point out that Combo Parry does feel a bit “unfinished” at its current state, could need a bit of tweaking but its definently a next step.

    I don’t really want Combo feint Parry to return, that’s atleast my opinion.



  • I think that fluidity of control is the most important thing in an action game. Recovery times, limitations on when you can and can’t perform an action, etc., just make combat feel awkward to me.

    I think there should never be a moment in an action game where there’s nothing you can do but pray the enemy makes a mistake. I want to always have a possible response to any situation that will negate or overcome what the opponent is doing, available on demand. I want it to be my awareness, precision, and dexterity that compete against the same of my opponent. I want the only limits to be my own. I guess that’s a shallow perspective though, considering the whole game revolves around overcoming limitations, such as class stats, weapon stats, etc. I guess what I’m trying to say is that the possible potency of a single player should be as great as possible, but only through the influence of mental and physical capability, and not by mechanical limitations on performable actions.

    In short, it’s just annoying when you are helpless. Adding these no-action windows to feint and combo-feint-parry makes you helpless at a lot of moments during attacks. I don’t like it. This is the same reason people dislike archers - you’re helpless against them a lot of the time. Nothing you can do but hope he misses. This combo-feint-parry limitation feels the same to me. It forces me to slow down and play thoughtfully, strategically - yuck. Tobi wanna go fast.

    I also think that stamina is an un-fun mechanic. I’ve never liked it. I don’t think it’s enjoyable to have to pace yourself because of game-rule limitations. I play action games for the action, not to exercise discipline and carefulness.

    I’ll oppose any changes towards more thoughtful, strategic, and teamwork-based gameplay. I want to be a Chivalry hero, and I think a lot of players feel the same. Please restore my hero powers.

    Edit: At the very least, reduce the no-parry window to .2s. I think this would allow quick reaction to attacks that are in windup, but not instant reaction to those that are in release and about to hit you. The 200ms no-feint window on windups is enough of a nerf to combo-feint-parry.



  • Decrease 2h weapon flinch while you’re at it.



  • @TobiwanK3nobi:

    Tobi wanna go fast.

    This.



  • @TobiwanK3nobi:

    I think there should never be a moment in an action game where there’s nothing you can do but pray the enemy makes a mistake. I want to always have a possible response to any situation that will negate or overcome what the opponent is doing, available on demand.

    Then the game would be only about the best reaction, hardware and connection.

    If youre helpless its because you made a mistake. Thats also the difference to archers. Its not your fault they can shot past your shield no matter how hard you zigzag. But if you cant parry or attack its because YOU decided to get yourself into this situation.

    I know there are this quaketype players who want no limitation, but Im one of those who loved americas army when it came out BECAUSE you were not able to shoot while running. Personal preference I guess…



  • @Towe:

    @TobiwanK3nobi:

    I think there should never be a moment in an action game where there’s nothing you can do but pray the enemy makes a mistake. I want to always have a possible response to any situation that will negate or overcome what the opponent is doing, available on demand.

    Then the game would be only about the best reaction, hardware and connection.

    If youre helpless its because you made a mistake.

    But many ‘mistakes’ are made because of poor hardware and connection. Like falling for a claymore feint on a 32p server when your ping is reading 120ms and your fps is dragged down because of all the players on-field. You have to parry the windup because there’s only going to be about 100ms of release before you get hit. Not enough time to react at that fps. If he feinted, you get hit.

    Disallowing a player to correct a mistake made that was made because of his shabby computer or a laggy server seems a bit harsh. At least it took skill to make that feint-to-parry correction that fixed your mistake. There was also a pretty significant stamina cost.



  • I don’t see use getting back combo feint parry without some extra stamina loss, but who knows ;)



  • @TobiwanK3nobi:

    I think there should never be a moment in an action game where there’s nothing you can do but pray the enemy makes a mistake. I want to always have a possible response to any situation that will negate or overcome what the opponent is doing, available on demand. I want it to be my awareness, precision, and dexterity that compete against the same of my opponent. I want the only limits to be my own.

    Tobi you should play more MAA. This reasoning is exactly why I pick the fastest classes in every game. Doesn’t matter if I also have the least amount of health since I’m able to evade damage based on my skill.



  • @Knil:

    I don’t see use getting back combo feint parry without some extra stamina loss, but who knows ;)

    Don’t get me wrong, I’d rather have it back with an increased stam drain than nothing at all.


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