Realism mod



  • I think its is disturbing that you can kill a knight with a pole staff or block a maul with a hunting knife.

    You can see what a sword does to plate armor

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=osTQrJ_axfc

    The amount of knights should be limited. So they would basicaly be tanks, as you can see in the video its does little damage, so you should be aiming for the weak spots in the other hand there are videos where an arrow pierces the armor with no problem so archers could kill a knight easy. The knight should be slow as hell, he could be kicked and he would tip over and then took some time to get back up. Vanguard should be faster than a knight. Please write your suggestions and sorry for my bad english, because its not my nativa language. Thank you.



  • Yeah, it would be cool for a entirely different game, or total overhaul mod, with mechanics and gameplay made truer to realism. It wouldn’t be very fast-pace, and you would really have to work together with your team to succeed. You wouldn’t want to get caught alone, even if you are a knight in full plate armour, a group of peasants can still kill you. They might not pierce your armour, but they can still kick you down and bash you with clubs.

    So I agree, it could be nice if done right (as with everything.) That’s the hard thing, I guess. Making it work right and still be fun.

    (also, I’d love if this same medieval simulator game would also allow for loads of more players on the same server at the same time, so you really get the feeling of two opposing armies. Imagine the lag, though.)



  • It would be an interesting mod. I like the video.



  • @Fartman:

    The knight should be slow as hell, he could be kicked and he would tip over and then took some time to get back up.

    You’d be surprised just how much and how fast a guy in full plate can move.
    Pz7naZ08Jd4



  • Sounds interesting, not sure if it would be fun to play though.



  • We would need animations for wrestling knights.



  • yes, i certainly want to see a realism mod. i just wanted to start a thread with the exact same name, so.

    You can see what a sword does to plate armor

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=osTQrJ_axfc

    The amount of knights should be limited. So they would basicaly be tanks, as you can see in the video its does little damage, so you should be aiming for the weak spots in the other hand there are videos where an arrow pierces the armor with no problem so archers could kill a knight easy. The knight should be slow as hell, he could be kicked and he would tip over and then took some time to get back up. Vanguard should be faster than a knight. Please write your suggestions and sorry for my bad english, because its not my nativa language. Thank you.

    well, that’s one documentary, and different documentaries often contradict eachother. i’ve seen ‘proof’ that arrows cannot penetrate plate or helmets, even chain mail, and i’ve seen the exact opposite ‘proof’.
    i think this game got that fairly right: you need Bodkin arrows against Knights. they just need damage to decrease the longer the range is, if you want realism.

    here’s some changes that i think would make it more realistic:

    • ADD ONE-HANDED SPEARS. we got the throwing kind, roughly, but non-throwing one-handed or bastard spears were the most common weapon and probably made up about 80% of any army prior to the era of firearms, and it’s the one weapon omitted in Chivalry. they would be longer than two-handed swords.
    • remove most of the two-handed swords or add firearms. they were hardly ever used prior to the era of firearms. Claymore and Zweihander, for instance, were only used in the era of firearms.
    • remove double headed Axe and Hammer. there isn’t a single recorded non-ornamental or symbolic use of either weapon afaik.
    • the Bearded Axe and the War Hammer were one-handed weapons.
    • make metal armors noisy. i constantly get sneaked up by Vanguards and Knights, which would be impossible unless i was deafened first (which could easily happen though)
    • make plate/splint armor (the “Knight” class) more resistent to Cut and Blunt damage.
    • add something of a way for long sleek weapons to do ‘critical’ damage to heavy armor, by bypassing the armor, by going for weak parts like vizor and joints. like the Estoc in your video, stabbing daggers, but also the Halbard point end.
    • reduce the rate of fire of bows and crossbows. they did not have the rate-of-attack of melee weapons.
    • remove (most of the) Charge Bonus. you deal with Archers relying on your own Archers, lighter armoured comrades, or keeping an eye out while you do your objective, or flanking them and trying to pin them in.
    • make it harder to riposte after a parry with your primary weapon, at least for one-handers. i’m pretty sure it would be easier to riposte after parrying with a Buckler. i realise that would make shields OP, but when we’re going for realism that’s exactly what we want.
    • replace Dodge when using a shield, because i’d think the inertia from a shield would make such a move impossible. but it’s definitely fun and fine for those strange twitchy weirdos with an empty off-hand.


  • @Deadpan:

    • remove most of the two-handed swords or add firearms. they were hardly ever used prior to the era of firearms. Claymore and Zweihander, for instance, were only used in the era of firearms.
    • remove double headed Axe and Hammer. there isn’t a single recorded non-ornamental or symbolic use of either weapon afaik.
    • the Bearded Axe and the War Hammer were one-handed weapons.

    I don’t think a realism mod should go as far as removing weapons. Both Claymore and Zweihänder were technologically possible. Maul and Doubel Axe were tools you could use as improvised weapons. The Warhammer is a onehanded weapon and the Bearded Axe - just switch models with the Dane Axe (I would like to do the same with Claymore and Greatsword)
    @Deadpan:

    • make metal armors noisy. i constantly get sneaked up by Vanguards and Knights, which would be impossible unless i was deafened first (which could easily happen though)

    Knights and Vanguards are noisy for me. Did you change some settings?
    @Deadpan:

    • make plate/splint armor (the “Knight” class) more resistent to Cut and Blunt damage.

    Actually Chivalry Knights seem to use something like riveted mail so the percentages are not that far off. I would add a fixed amount of damage that is negated like ~30. This way a 100 damage cut would do 1000.4-30 = 10 damage but a 100 damage blunt strike had 1000.6-30 = 30 damage. Other classes should get similar but lower values (like 20 for the Vanguard, 15 for the Man at Arms and 10 for the Archer who is likely to wear a Gambeson).
    @Deadpan:

    • add something of a way for long sleek weapons to do ‘critical’ damage to heavy armor, by bypassing the armor, by going for weak parts like vizor and joints. like the Estoc in your video, stabbing daggers, but also the Halbard point end.

    What about having some areas (neck, back of the knee, armpit, eyes) either not applying the damage negation or dealing additional damage?
    @Deadpan:

    • reduce the rate of fire of bows and crossbows. they did not have the rate-of-attack of melee weapons.

    Bows are not that far off but they should need stamina to draw and hold. Crossbows should have a higher reload time and cost stamina while reloading.
    @Deadpan:

    • remove (most of the) Charge Bonus. you deal with Archers relying on your own Archers, lighter armoured comrades, or keeping an eye out while you do your objective, or flanking them and trying to pin them in.

    Removing the chase code might have too much of a negative impact but one could in turn reduce the differences in movement speed.
    @Deadpan:

    • make it harder to riposte after a parry with your primary weapon, at least for one-handers. i’m pretty sure it would be easier to riposte after parrying with a Buckler. i realise that would make shields OP, but when we’re going for realism that’s exactly what we want.

    Riposting with swords should stay the way it is or even get faster. Riposting with other weapons should be harder (axes and blunt weapons) or even almost impossible (spears and polearms).
    @Deadpan:

    • replace Dodge when using a shield, because i’d think the inertia from a shield would make such a move impossible. but it’s definitely fun and fine for those strange twitchy weirdos with an empty off-hand.

    As an extension: Make weapons slow down their user in both acceleration and running speed and possibly affecting dodge (replacing dodge with a short time movement speed boost might also work).

    In general release times should be shorter and some recovery times (most stabs, very heavy weapons like the Maul) should be increased. Maybe some random spread for both ranged and melee weapons to make it harder to hit weak spots (you should still be able to consistently hit your target if not shooting at very long range). Also each weapon type should have its own unique flair:

    Swords - moderate damage but fast windups, fast combos, fast riposte, combo/panic parry possible. Basically weapons for high speed fencing.

    Axes - high damage and fast combo times but longer windups and recovery, slow riposte and no combo/panic parry. Something for going berserk.

    Clubs - very high damage but more like single strike weapons (can combo but not very fast), slow riposte and no combo/panic parry. SMASH!

    Polearms - high damage good reach but slow, very slow riposte and no combo/panic parry.

    Spears - moderate damage, good reach, moderate speed, no riposte, no combo/panic parry. Javelins go here.

    Daggers - low damage but very precise and fast, very fast combos, slow riposte, combo/panic parry possible.

    Quarterstaff - low damage but fast windups, fast combos, very fast riposte, combo/panic parry possible.

    Bows - moderate damage, high rate of fire but hindered by stamina (shoot fewer arrows to avoid getting exhausted). More accurate when standing. Inaccurate while moving.

    Crossbows - very high damage but also a very long reload time that also eats quite some stamina. Always accurate - if not moving - but even more when crouching.

    Sling - moderate damage, high rate of fire, less hindered by stamina but also less accurate (standing helps, not moving helps a lot).

    More general things:

    • higher stamina pool
    • sprinting and striking costs stamina
    • wrestling Knights and halfsword
    • these hooks on some weapons should be of use
    • (much) higher falling damage
    • terrifying firepots (instead of just annyoing)
    • inaccurate throwables (includes the firepots above)
    • smaller buckler but allows riposting
    • ammo boxes have pools for each ammo type slowly refilling over time
    • slowdown by equipment (a MaA with Hatchet+Dagger+Knifes should be faster than one with Morningstar+Saber+Heatershield)
    • smaller hitboxes for both hitting and parrying
    • out-of-stamina stun time depending on weapon OR
    • no out-of-stamina stun time but also damage instead of free stamina when parrying without sufficient reserves
    • heavy weapons should be much less draggable (and thus much easier to dodge)
    • parrying a very heavy weapon with a light one should be much harder


  • @Deadpan:

    remove most of the two-handed swords or add firearms. they were hardly ever used prior to the era of firearms. Claymore and Zweihander, for instance, were only used in the era of firearms.

    • remove double headed Axe and Hammer. there isn’t a single recorded non-ornamental or symbolic use of either weapon afaik.
    • the Bearded Axe and the War Hammer were one-handed weapons.

    I agree with definitely removing Double Axe and Maul.

    As for the big two handed swords, it is true that they were mainly used in an era where pikes and early firearms were the main weapons. So either introduce pike and musket or remove them. You could keep the some like the Longsword and Sword of War but they may need a re-skin. Bastard swords like that were being used from the 13th century (mainly from horseback).

    The war hammer is already a one handed weapon so I don’t see what the problem is.

    The bearded axe wasn’t strictly a one handed weapon only. The “bearded axe” was more of the shape of the head and could easily be one or two handed. There was definitely a two handed axe that looked like that used by the Vikings and the Anglo Saxons amongst others.

    Another issue is deciding what era this would be based on. Chivalry currently has weapons and armour from the ancient period (pilum) through the early middle ages (norse sword, bearded axe etc), until the renaissance (full plate, zweihander etc.). Vanguards are dressed as 12th/13th century knights but have entirely the wrong weapons and Knights are 14th/15th century but some of their weapons are more suited to other periods.

    You would either need to restrict armour and weapons to one period for everybody or split classes into different periods. For example keep the vanguard armour but only allow them to use 12th/13th century weapons like broadsword, mace, maybe some sort of reskinned greatsword, change Brandistock into a different spear etc.



  • Maybe there is a possibility for a modular realism mod where you can turn things on/off and combine them with other mods (similar to UT mutators). Because some people would like to have some of the aspects but not others (for example I like most of the ideas here but I really hate removing weapons).

    For example one could break it down to eight (or more) parts:

    1. more realistic fighting mechanics
    2. more realistic stamina system
    3. more realistic armor
    4. more realistic movement/falling damage
    5. changes to weapons (for differentiation and realism)
    6. wrestling/hooking (aka alternate attacks)
    7. ranged spread
    8. historical accuracy

    When putting the classes into different periods I suggest:
    Archer - Late Middle Ages (keep Heavy Crossbows)
    Man at Arms - Ancient/Dark Ages
    Vanguard - Renaissance
    Knight - High Middle Ages

    Another option would be to change the model and available equipment depending on your primary choice. So if you pick a Zweihänder as Vanguard you would be able to use the Shortsword, War Axe and Saber as secondary and look like a Landsknecht. If you pick the Fork you can use Hatchet and Cudgel while looking like a Peasant.



  • @Evil:

    Maybe there is a possibility for a modular realism mod where you can turn things on/off and combine them with other mods (similar to UT mutators). Because some people would like to have some of the aspects but not others (for example I like most of the ideas here but I really hate removing weapons).

    The SDK doesn’t support mutators yet.
    However, you can achieve part of that through a well structured code with a significant quantity of config variables.
    Combining with other mods is rather problematic, but I’ve already talked about it on another thread.

    Shortly after I bought this game I had an idea for a “true” fencing mod.
    Unfortunately, this is not something I can do on my own, as I would require new animations and plenty of time and people to test it, so I dropped it for the time being.
    If at some point someone decides to proceed with this idea and has what I lack, I’ll gladly assist with coding.
    While Chivalry is good enough as a multiplayer melee game, I cannot help but feel more of a contortionist than a swordsman.

    In my original idea I wanted to remove classes altogether, and write a “buy your equipment/training” system.
    Weapons would be much more lethal, armors would play a much larger role, and great emphasis on close-ins and counters.
    There would be throws, blocks, parries, real feinting and more, all based on real medieval warfare.



  • Both Claymore and Zweihänder were technologically possible. Maul and Doubel Axe were tools you could use as improvised weapons. The Warhammer is a onehanded weapon and the Bearded Axe - just switch models with the Dane Axe (I would like to do the same with Claymore and Greatsword)

    we’re talking about a realism mod here, so “possible” doesn’t really help. it has to’ve been actually used.
    hammer-tools as improvised weapons would mostly be one-handed, but if they were two-handed, they’d most likely still wouldn’t be double headed. they’d have one hammer head and one spike/hook end.
    i didn’t realise Warhammer in this game is one-handed, as it’s in a two-handed category.

    Knights and Vanguards are noisy for me. Did you change some settings?

    have you? i never hear them just walking.

    Actually Chivalry Knights seem to use something like riveted mail so the percentages are not that far off. I would add a fixed amount of damage that is negated like ~30. This way a 100 damage cut would do 1000.4-30 = 10 damage but a 100 damage blunt strike had 1000.6-30 = 30 damage. Other classes should get similar but lower values (like 20 for the Vanguard, 15 for the Man at Arms and 10 for the Archer who is likely to wear a Gambeson).

    no, to me, it definitely looks like plate for Agathan knight and Splint for Mason knight. just because there also are chainmail parts to it, doesn’t mean the plate and splint parts are decorative. although i admit it looks a bit weird, like the Agathan knight forgot to put his breastplate on.

    i like the idea of fixed reduction though, (more) for plate. it’s used for that that way in many games, that would make like the staff, or axe thrust, relatively less useful on plate compared to mace swings, which seems realistic.

    What about having some areas (neck, back of the knee, armpit, eyes) either not applying the damage negation or dealing additional damage?

    yeah, like that, seems good.

    Bows are not that far off but they should need stamina to draw and hold. Crossbows should have a higher reload time and cost stamina while reloading.

    games are almost always a little quicker than reality, 'cause we don’t wanna get bored. but melee attacks don’t seem more than 2 or maybe 3 times quicker. bot and crossbow reload times are about 10 times quicker though. i didn’t make that up. in game crossbow reload is 2 to 4 seconds; reality reload is 20 to 45 seconds.

    Removing the chase code might have too much of a negative impact but one could in turn reduce the differences in movement speed.

    maybe, but again, we’re discussing a realism mod, not the main game.

    Riposting with swords should stay the way it is or even get faster

    again, realism mod. there is nothing realistic about a riposte attack being so much faster (or faster at all) than a regular attack.

    As an extension: Make weapons slow down their user in both acceleration and running speed and possibly affecting dodge (replacing dodge with a short time movement speed boost might also work). […]

    seems like a lot of work, but sure.

    The bearded axe wasn’t strictly a one handed weapon only. The “bearded axe” was more of the shape of the head and could easily be one or two handed. There was definitely a two handed axe that looked like that used by the Vikings and the Anglo Saxons amongst others.

    the Bearded axe certianly was usually one handed. the only references to two-handed axes used by Germanics i could find use “Dane axe”.



  • @Deadpan:

    we’re talking about a realism mod here, so “possible” doesn’t really help. it has to’ve been actually used.

    Wait… are we talking about realism or about historical records? Both Mauls and Double Axe were around at the late Medieval and got used - as tools at least and no doubt as improvised weapons from time to time. They were impractical because of their weigh though. Having them as weapon choices is about as realistic as having the S&W Model 500 as choice in a modern setting.

    @Deadpan:

    games are almost always a little quicker than reality, 'cause we don’t wanna get bored. but melee attacks don’t seem more than 2 or maybe 3 times quicker. bot and crossbow reload times are about 10 times quicker though. i didn’t make that up. in game crossbow reload is 2 to 4 seconds; reality reload is 20 to 45 seconds.

    Melee attacks are actually 2 or 3 times slower and need to be as the same is true for ingame reaction time. And if you don’t want to wait for reload - just go melee and cut something up. Bow reload times are not much slower in reality - only getting the arrow in your hand takes a little longer. Fire rate was limited by the Archers stamina though - shooting arrows as fast as possible can be very exhausting.

    @Deadpan:

    again, realism mod. there is nothing realistic about a riposte attack being so much faster (or faster at all) than a regular attack.

    The way parrying with a sword works makes the difference - basically you don’t go parry->attack but do both in one strike (or redirect a successful parry into an attack) to prevent the enemy from simply redirecting his own attack (feint anyone?). Of course this only applies to weapons that are designed to work this way (like swords).



  • if i remember correctly melee attacks are counted in tenths of seconds. i really don’t think reality works that fast at all, not for attacks that are meant to pierce armor.

    firing as fast as possible for sports is completely uncomparable to firing a bow in war. that’s the same as seeing soldiers move. i predict you right now, that 100 years from now people will argue like you that soldiers in games taking place in our time now run too slow for realism, and then quote running times of olympic sprinters and say “that’s how fast human beings run”.

    crossbows took 20 to 45 seconds to reload. that’s a fact. bows were a little faster, but don’t expect a rate above one shot per 10 seconds. and that’s if they’re NOT aiming at individuals.

    and if you were to carry on your parry into an attack, that would probably be EASIER to do with an unsuccesful parry than a succesful one. and this is already covered by comboing anyway.



  • You’d need a total conversion for a realism mod if we’re talking about historical accuracy.

    What I’d like to see is a believable mod, that is combat overhauled to have a minimal amount of overly “gamey” features, such as exploiting the animation system to do really weird moves. Things like feintspamming with a weapon that is clearly too heavy, or delayed swinging (I’m guilty of beheading someone with a stationary sword!), which should be subjected an M&B style momentum system.

    Oh, and I always wondered what it would be like to have a game that pulls off shields correctly, by which I primarily mean having them not adopt a strange, gas-like state whenever RMB isn’t being pressed.



  • Having more effective armor and more distinct weaponry (support, fast, armor-piercing etc.) as well as believable combat mechanics would be a good thing. Shields might be a difficult thing to pull off without making it suck. Maybe there could be different “block strengths”:

    Not held up/on the back:

    • blocks projectiles as usual
    • melee attacks on the shield deal 40% less damage
    • the remaining melee damage is always blunt damage

    Held up for some time:

    • blocks projectiles as usual
    • melee attacks on the shield don’t deal damage but drains stamina
    • stamina drain while held up

    Shortly after bringing your shield up/during shield bash:

    • blocks projectiles as usual
    • melee attacks on the shield don’t deal damage but drains stamina
    • less stamina drain while blocking

    The blocking area should match the visual size (Rule #1: What you see is what you get!) - this means you have to crouch to protect your legs when using a Buckler!

    @Deadpan:

    if i remember correctly melee attacks are counted in tenths of seconds. i really don’t think reality works that fast at all, not for attacks that are meant to pierce armor.

    True for armor piercing attacks as you need far more momentum. Nothing you can really do by fencing. Also fencers have trained years to get that fast - no pc game need that much of a learning curve. Halfsword attacks were probably quite fast but they really lacked in reach and got stuck quite often.

    The speed I would like to see is something similar to the speed we see in the Bearded Axe - its not too fast from a technical point of view and feels realistic. For primary weapons the speed shouldn’t exceed the current Norse Sword. Daggers might be faster if given other drawbacks (like not being able to parry).

    Ranged weapons might get slowed down a little but not that much.

    @Deadpan:

    and if you were to carry on your parry into an attack, that would probably be EASIER to do with an unsuccesful parry than a succesful one

    Being able to combo out of an unsuccessful (= the other guy misses or feints) parry might be an interesting feature for swords and daggers. I don’t want to see it with a mace or spear though (see above).


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