Combo-feint-parry: another perspective



  • The main problem with combo-feint-parry is that it seems like a hack or trick to anyone who isn’t a hardcore player.

    I typed in combo feint parry into YouTube to see if there were any tutorials and what I found in the comments is particularly interesting. I think this shows how some people who play this game but never come to the forums felt about it.
    From http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwr7nEJNKic

    My god it hurts me to think that high ranked players use these? tricks…I love this game but to think that I won’t be able to have decent and proper fights because of exploits…how many are there ? This is maybe the second or the third I discover, how many times did I see something suspicious in-game ?

    Appretiate? that you are showing the bugs so they can be fixed instead of keeping them for your selves to use only.

    Worst thing is, us lowly players have to work our dang asses to get the attack timings right, and then we are effortlessly killed by this. I have experienced it against a couple of guys who I thought had extremely good parrying skills. Upon closer look, they were indeed combo parrying, which forced me to spam and dance in order to at least land a hit.



  • As a pub player people complained about this a lot. It was annoying. A good player finally made a mistake and then suddenly blocked their attack.

    Highly frustrating.

    And unrealistic looking. Their weapons suddenly ways nothing and their arms move at Mach speed.

    And then there was combo feint attack. That was like speed hacking. And people want it back.



  • And there you go. Game on sale = simplify game.



  • For me the problem isn’t that the move existed, but there was no way for your average player to know what it was or how to do it.

    I think the best thing to do would have been to show these techniques in an advanced tutorial in game or to get someone like Shara or HEXEN to make a YouTube video showing all the special techniques and how to do them. TB could have hosted the video on the website and pushed it out via the community.

    Problem solved without having to dumb down the game.



  • Its not intended. When you work out how to do it you realise that it didn’t take much skill to do and made you invincible in 1v1 combat.



  • @lemonater47:

    Its not intended. When you work out how to do it you realise that it didn’t take much skill to do and made you invincible in 1v1 combat.

    I know, but I do see that it was in the game so long and had become a staple of advanced play that perhaps showing people how to use it (and perhaps adjusting the move slightly) would be better than removing it completely.



  • @lemonater47:

    Its not intended. When you work out how to do it you realise that it didn’t take much skill to do and made you invincible in 1v1 combat.

    Invincible? Saying stuff like that really gives a good impression of your skill level. :D



  • But… I remember figuring this shit out when I was a level 10 or so. No one told me about it, I just started doing it because it made sense and seemed to fit within my understanding of the game workings. You can feint out of combos. You can parry after a feint. You therefore can combo feint parry.

    I then saw some stuff in the forums about this exploit called “combo feint parry” and I was enraged people were using an exploit to block fast. Then someone told me what it was and my response was, “oh, I do that.”

    Honestly if combo feint parry is un-intuitive to newbies then so is regular feint to parry, and that’s still somewhat an option. Hell, judging from these forums and in game parrying isn’t very intuitive to newbies :). LET’S REMOVE IT, lol.

    Just my two cents. If it doesn’t come back I’m not going to write about it in my pretty pink diary or anything, I just miss the flexibility of the old combat system. I was used to it, but I can get used to this.

    The other day I won a 6 on 1. It’s still completely possible… but should we be having an easier time winning 3 on 1 situations? I mean really? Maybe we should engage more intelligently.

    I don’t think combo feinting to parry is necessarily “easy” to do though. Remember how noobs can’t figure it out? This is not some free tactic for surviving in combat, you still must have an awareness of what’s going on… it’s just that now we have this awareness and there’s really nothing we can do about it.

    I think it’s a shame this was never included into the game with the feint changes, either. I imagine it would become harder to do and you’d see less occasions people would be able to pull it off successfully, but I guess we’ll never know because it was taken out and feints were changed all at once (along with a slew of other changes).



  • I didn’t think it was an exploit nor do I believe I was even aware it had a name.

    I think it was just natural for me to hammer right click when a strike is incoming and if it happened to be while I was comboing I didn’t think anything of it.

    That’s why I don’t get why people have to be taught it- surely most people, even noobs, naturally hammer their parry button when a strike is incoming even if they are in the middle of another move.



  • @AngryDave:

    I didn’t think it was an exploit nor do I believe I was even aware it had a name.

    I think it was just natural for me to hammer right click when a strike is incoming and if it happened to be while I was comboing I didn’t think anything of it.

    That’s why I don’t get why people have to be taught it- surely most people, even noobs, naturally hammer their parry button when a strike is incoming even if they are in the middle of another move.

    Spamming right click wasn’t intended. Right click used to not do a feint in the first place.

    Now you have to not make mistakes in the first place. That’s how I learnt to play. I knew if I made a mistake I would get punished for it. People have gotten used to the fact spamming right click and your invincible in melee.

    It wasn’t intended to be like that. Its a get outta jail free card.



  • It’s a known fact that youtube commenters are some of the least intelligent creatures on this planet.



  • @dudeface:

    It’s a known fact that youtube commenters are some of the least intelligent creatures on this planet.

    This, and I think the people complaining are generally quick to jump on the interwebz and say how upset they are, instead of trying to work around it.

    I probably used to do this in immense group combat, but I don’t know if I’ve really missed it since being patched. But yes, it also came intuitively to me as was said earlier, and it didn’t seem exploity to me at all.

    Also, do clans seriously go into matches like this and practice swinging at eachother? The thought of that nearly bores me to tears… Maybe I don’t understand the competitive scene.



  • Came naturally to me too. Was constantly dying to MAA’s in duels (dodge forward + facehug + slash) so I baited them in with a single slash and then comboed them. Some guys stopped falling for it though and sometimes I attacked when they were too close, so I feinted out of the combo. Typically when MAAs are too close when you start your combo swing, they attack. So I would feint and block. Hence combo-feint-parry. It’s possible to readjust your initial strike with the same mechanism as well (feint-parry) if you’re not confident you’d get a hit trade. But combo-feint parries and feint parries are tough because you have to assess whether your attack would be interrupted or not within the limited time frame of the wind up of your weapon. It’s much tougher to execute than panic parry where you have the time frame of recovery. Plus there’s no decision making involved. Perhaps a better solution is to nerf feints (this i agree with) by preventing attacks after feints within a certain time period, but allowing blocks immediately. The lack of transparency could be rectified by adding a new animation for the attack-feint-block sequence and the tutorial should correspondingly teach players this particular maneuver. In fact the tutorial is quite useless and I recall that it stopped working for me halfway through.



  • @lemonater47:

    @AngryDave:

    I didn’t think it was an exploit nor do I believe I was even aware it had a name.

    I think it was just natural for me to hammer right click when a strike is incoming and if it happened to be while I was comboing I didn’t think anything of it.

    That’s why I don’t get why people have to be taught it- surely most people, even noobs, naturally hammer their parry button when a strike is incoming even if they are in the middle of another move.

    Spamming right click wasn’t intended. Right click used to not do a feint in the first place.

    Now you have to not make mistakes in the first place. That’s how I learnt to play. I knew if I made a mistake I would get punished for it. People have gotten used to the fact spamming right click and your invincible in melee.

    It wasn’t intended to be like that. Its a get outta jail free card.

    Which is why I don’t understand why people say removing it is “noob friendly” or why people think it is difficult for the average player to discover. Seems like something that most people would discover by accident or not even realize they are doing it.

    I’m neither for or against combo-feint-parry, I just don’t think removing it particularly caters for noobs.



  • @KONGEN:

    @lemonater47:

    Its not intended. When you work out how to do it you realise that it didn’t take much skill to do and made you invincible in 1v1 combat.

    Invincible? Saying stuff like that really gives a good impression of your skill level. :D

    Let me FIFM.

    @KONGEN:

    @lemonater47:

    Its not intended. When you work out how to do it you realise that it didn’t take much skill to do and made you invincible to everything but ranged weapons and hit trades in 1v1 combat.



  • I’m neither for or against combo-feint-parry, I just don’t think removing it particularly caters for noobs.

    I think it’s introducing an element of risk - if you can CFP then you can attack without fear of being caught off guard. It reminds me of Dark Souls where you had to commit to your actions and suffer the consequences. I kind of like it.

    I don’t see how this is catering to noobs more though or catering to anyone. If your attack hits then it’s good for you (as you managed to deal damage), if it doesn’t you can CFP and counter-attack. Lack of CFP seems to bother(?) - from the lack of better word - more advanced players more as they were used to CFP mechanic not new players who probably don’t even know you attack faster after parrying an attack.



  • The huge underlying problem is that the game doesn’t have a proper bug-free coherent tutorial.
    Torn banner hasn’t updated the tutorial since launch, it doesn’t explain subtleties of the combat system or even the “real time strikes” feature AT ALL.
    So instead of taking the time and effort of making a good tutorial they took the easy way out and removed some things that made the combat fun and interesting for veteran players.

    The things they removed weren’t even mechanics new players complained about, the two most common things complained about that I’ve found are;
    1. Feints
    2. Accelerated overhead attacks and slashes
    Both of these have been mitaged a lot, I don’t agree with all the changes

    ! FEINTSbut changes were needed.

    I don’t think I’ve ever encountered new players complaining about CFP.
    I do however hear loud and clear the complaints of the Hit->Combo->Feint->Attack tactic that was prevelant pre-patch. They tried to remedy this with adjusting windup times here and there, adjusting where and where not you can feint in windup etc. etc. This is fundementally flawed because it’s not a problem with feints its a problem with parries.
    I’ve proposed a fix, spoilerd because it’s a bit off-topic.

    ! I think it’s funny that there isn’t much of a commotion about feints at the moment because of the backlash of the latest patch.
    !
    ! Anywho, I’d like to beat the dead horse little.
    !
    ! This idea I don’t think has gotten enough attention.
    ! I think it’s a much better solution to the feinting “issue” than changing how much of your attack you can feint, timings and the god awful idea of an audio “grunt” queue.
    !
    ! It ties in with the parry out of recovery mechanic pretty nicely, it was implemented by a bug on accident in one of the betas and everyone seemed to think it was on purpose and completely dismissed the idea.
    !
    ! It would just be a second parry that you could queue in recovery of your first parry for the cost of equal or greater value of the stamina cost of a feint.
    ! If you land the second parry you would be unable to riposte, this would maintain the attackers favor in the momentum of the fight and the stamina management.
    !
    ! Perhaps even further the “panic” parry would have a longer recovery time than a normal parry but NOT a longer active parry window.
    !
    ! The “panic” parry would NOT be able to be comboed into anything else, you either parry the attack or you miss and have to recover.
    !
    ! This is a simple and intuitive fix. This doens’t give the defender the advantage it just eliminates the 50/50 that feinting and combo feinting creates.
    !
    ! I don’t believe any amount of timing tweaking or stamina cost tweaking is going to solve the issue, the problem the entire time was with parrying.
    !
    ! I doubt this will ever see the light of day though, TB and a lot of the community is set on feinting be the end all be all to land a hit on an opponent who’s learned how to parry.
    !
    ! Rev up dem mods people.
    Veteran players will still wipe the floor with new players like always, the only thing that changed is higher level play is dumbed down.



  • People saying that combo-feint-to-parry was an exploit and unintended as the root of their argument drives me crazy. Being able to feint of out a combo was intended. Being able to parry out of a feint was intended.

    Compare combo-feint-to-parry to the feint attack recovery by-pass (or whatever the hell it was called). The technique where you feinted out of your recovery allowed you to by-pass an obvious game mechanic - that after a swing, you had a cool down until you could swing again. That’s an exploit. Purposeful desyncing is an exploit, running while reloading a crossbow is an exploit. Using the game mechanics in a clever way is not.



  • Snoe, they are not talking about the button presses when they call it an exploit. The exploit comes from the fact that the animations could not seem to handle this combination.

    So not only was it very mechanically effective, it made it nearly impossible to respond to if you did not know what your opponent was doing (having knowledge of the likely tactic before hand and knowing the lack of animations).

    At least that is what I have gathered. I can’t say I know much about this strategy. Personally, since they added the alt attacks button I find that comboing is a poor substitute for the other creativity that can come in combat when each swing is selected and timed. I believe many people think that combos quicken the pace of combat to keep it from getting boring and slow though. Slow is very relative though. Some of us can be in a fight for 20 seconds or so and not mind at all since it gets more thought intensive and reliant on footwork and positioning.



  • “Cancelling” an attack into another move (cutting out animation of one move and replacing with another move) is a historic staple to Fighting games.
    It was first an unintended bug. But gave way to a deeper mechanic and enjoyable game.

    This mechanic is now a BASIC mechanic of every fighting game.

    That’s just for this one mechanic… and for fighting games. All games in every genre have bugs, unintended and clever ways of using mechanics to solve strategic problems/match-ups.

    The problem lies in players of this modern and lazy era of video games. They expect everything to be handed to them on a win-plate. You want to do well?
    THEN GET OFF YOUR ASS AND TRAIN, RESEARCH AND STUDY IT.
    You don’t get good at a game because someone holds your damn hand, gives you the answers, or patches an easier mechanic for you - this ain’t a damn console shooter.

    Do you know why a good tournament fighting game stays replayable for many, many years at big competitions? Because the mechanics are deep, and some are accidental - where players continually DISCOVER new ways of using old mechanics and using them CREATIVELY to solve problems.

    Next thing you know, people will complain there isn’t a hand holding tutorial for META.

    The only thing that should be discussed is,
    1. Whether or not it is fair.
    And fair does not include a skill gap between noobs and vets (you absolute idiot). Fair is whether or not the mechanic poses to be OP (over-powered), in that,
    a) It is easy to do in many/varied situations
    b) It offers too many pros compared cons
    c) It is unpunishable, or, the few punishers available are not weighed fairly in reward compared to the skill/commitment needed.
    d) It is too difficult, or unfair, for the opponent(s) to defend against it, and/or retaliate.

    Ignorance, naivety, spite and laziness, are not good arguments in regards to balance. Nor is the laughably silly approach of REALISM… in a fictional video game.


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