What was the reasoning behind the dodge nerf?



  • Haven’t been here for a month or two so I missed out on a lot of the beta discussion. Back then there wasn’t really that much talk about dodge but it would seem that something happened to change TB’s mind about dodge.

    I can understand the speed nerf to dodge, to some it looked like teleporting (but that could also be put down to bad connections or players with close to 100+ ping). But then again, if you make dodge too slow then it will be useless for escaping weapon reaches or fast initiations.

    But now I come to the part where dodge is disabled during windup and release. Was there much discussion about this on the beta feedback forum? Were people really having such a big issue with MaA dodge?

    Sorry, just this sort of thing really feels like a hit out of the blue for me. To remove a core intricacy of a mechanic and to replace it with a simple speed buff, feels like watering down the combat in this game for MaA. Not that I’m having much of a problem with the new speed buff, it feels alright and something that people will get use to in time.

    Just it really feels like MaA got dumbed down a bit with this latest patch.

    Sort of like if you were to remove pipe/rocket jumping from quake and replace it with making jumps bigger.



  • MaA got dumbed down? Watered down? Quite the opposite actually.



  • @rumpelstiltskin:

    MaA got dumbed down? Watered down? Quite the opposite pal.

    How so?



  • @DokB:

    @rumpelstiltskin:

    MaA got dumbed down? Watered down? Quite the opposite pal.

    How so?

    1. Now you actually use “dodge” to dodge attacks, not to dash offensively.
    2. Because of new speed boost you can focus more on your footwork than dodges.
    3. Thanks to no dodge during release/windups we got rid of that silly dodge forward while winding up your attack tactic which was too effective for small effort you had to put in it.



  • @rumpelstiltskin:

    @DokB:

    @rumpelstiltskin:

    MaA got dumbed down? Watered down? Quite the opposite pal.

    How so?

    1. Now you actually use “dodge” to dodge attacks, not to dash offensively.

    You could do that before. With the option to dodge-attack, you had another multitide of options and more weapon variety. Less options, less weapon viability = watered down; Fact.

    2. Because of new speed boost you can focus more on your footwork than dodges.

    Speed didn’t get changed, only acceleration. Walk speeds got buffed by about 5% in all directions. Sprint lockout when being blocked nullifies this for the most part, and you’re right back to square one: dodge or parry. Once again, watered down.

    3. Thanks to no dodge during release or wind ups we got rid of that silly dodge forward with your windup tactic which was too effective for small effort you had to put in it.

    It was easy to block in the first place. It gave initiative to MAA at the cost of stamina. It is not low risk -> high reward, just some risk some reward.

    My stance is that only people with slow ass reflexes want the dodge attack nerf. Hell, even I have average reflexes and I could deal with – it also made it much more interesting and fast paced. I relied on mindgames to consistently best my opponents that had good reaction time and technical ability though.

    Options are being limited; It’s watered down now – this is fact.



  • @rumpelstiltskin:

    @DokB:

    @rumpelstiltskin:

    MaA got dumbed down? Watered down? Quite the opposite pal.

    How so?

    1. Now you actually use “dodge” to dodge attacks, not to dash offensively.
    2. Because of new speed boost you can focus more on your footwork than dodges.
    3. Thanks to no dodge during release or wind ups we got rid of that silly dodge forward with your windup tactic which was too effective for small effort you had to put in it.

    That’s the thing though. Dashing offensively, in my eyes, was intended from day 1, it was in the game from day 1, it’s another mechanic that adds to the skill ceiling of this game as it came with high risk high reward as you could never dodge if you were forced into the parry state and if a MaA dodged forward then it was telegraphed in his dodge that he was about to attack. That’s what I want to know, what has changed with dodge that only now its been decided to change it? And isn’t it in the tutorial even to use dodge offensively to get past peoples guard?

    Footwork stays largely the same, any good MaA would tell you that MaA relied on good footwork paired with their use of dodge. Now it just feels like footwork has been made easier with the speed buff, meaning that it is in fact watered down, only because dodge has been changed in such a way that we now must rely heavily on footwork (not that this is a necessarily bad thing).



  • You could do that before. With the option to dodge-attack, you had another multitide of options and more weapon variety. Less options, less weapon viability = watered down; Fact.
    I never said you couldn’t do that before but now you mostly use dodge to actually dodge attacks. You had more weapon variety you say? Lets take hatchet as example, weapon itself is complete shit but alt swings and windup dodges made it more powerful than it’s really was. Was fixing alt swings also watering down the game? It made some weapons like hatchet, falchion, flanged mace less viable so going by your logic, watered down.

    Speed didn’t get changed, only acceleration. Walk speeds got buffed by about 5% in all directions. Sprint lockout when being blocked nullifies this for the most part, and you’re right back to square one: dodge or parry. Once again, watered down.
    Even if new speed looks weak on paper it’s actually very strong in game (at least from my experience). Everyone is affected by sprint lockout and I can’t see anything wrong with dodging or parrying once in a while.

    It was easy to block in the first place. It gave initiative to MAA at the cost of stamina. It is not low risk -> high reward, just some risk some reward.
    It was pretty much low risk and high reward.

    My stance is that only people with slow ass reflexes want the dodge attack nerf. Hell, even I have average reflexes and I could deal with – it also made it much more interesting and fast paced.
    Arguing like that is stupid, I could say something like:
    My stance is that only maa without any skill doesn’t want the dodge attack nerf because they base their whole playstyle around one effortless mechanic.
    My point is that we don’t really know what other people think and we can’t speak up for large group of players.

    I relied on mindgames to consistently best my opponents that had good reaction time and technical ability though.
    What mindgames are we talking about?

    Options are being limited; It’s watered down now – this is fact.
    It’s not a fact, it’s your opinion.

    That’s the thing though. Dashing offensively, in my eyes, was intended from day 1, it was in the game from day 1, it’s another mechanic that adds to the skill ceiling of this game as it came with high risk high reward as you could never dodge if you were forced into the parry state and if a MaA dodged forward then it was telegraphed in his dodge that he was about to attack. That’s what I want to know, what has changed with dodge that only now its been decided to change it? And isn’t it in the tutorial even to use dodge offensively to get past peoples guard?

    Obviously it WAS intended, but what does it really change? Dodging offensively didn’t add any skill ceiling because you can achieve same effect with footwork and parrying as long as you’re putting some effort. Offensive dodges were cheap, way too easy to execute with too high reward.

    Footwork stays largely the same, any good MaA would tell you that MaA relied on good footwork paired with their use of dodge. Now it just feels like footwork has been made easier with the speed buff, meaning that it is in fact watered down, only because dodge has been changed in such a way that we now must rely heavily on footwork (not that this is a necessarily bad thing).

    So now you’re saying that MAA got watered down because of speed buff? Speed buff is recompense for dodge changes.



  • It was pretty much low risk and high reward.

    How?

    @rumpelstiltskin:

    Everyone is affected by sprint lockout and I can’t see anything wrong with dodging or parrying once in a while.

    The intended nerf was to nerf vanguards. With the knockback increases, this ended up buffing vanguards. Knights couldn’t really do it due to their slower speed.

    This change ended up only nerfing MAA and Archer melee in reality (team play, don’t forget).



  • That’s exactly what I’m talking about. What has changed with MaA that only now they’ve decided to change how dodge works? And how dare those MaA utilise their unique trait to its full advantage? If you are to remove a function and buff another function, then you are still taking away from the game. This is what bamboozles me. How can you remove something that has been in the game since Day 1 and not feel like its taking away from the game?



  • I like the dodge nerf and I’ve played MAA almost exclusively before the patch.
    I however, do not like the sprint lockout from parrying/being parried, or the increased enemy collision.
    Also I don’t know if this is intended but the MAA’s top speed was nerfed, I think unintentionally?
    Pre-patch IIRC full sprint speed on mAA was 330.
    Archer
    Walking: 200
    Backpedal: 160
    Strafe: 160
    Start of Sprint: 260
    Full Sprint: 330
    Acceleration: 3.5 seconds

    Man at Arms
    Walking: 210
    Backpedal: 178
    Strafe: 189
    Start of Sprint: 276
    Full Sprint: 313
    Acceleration: 2 seconds

    Vanguard
    Walking: 190
    Backpedal: 152
    Strafe: 161
    Start of Sprint: 249
    Full Sprint: 313
    Acceleration: 3.5 seconds

    Knight
    Walking: 180
    Backpedal: 143
    Strafe: 153
    Start of Sprint: 236
    Full Sprint: 296
    Acceleration: 4 seconds

    All of the classes could use a universal speed buff to make combat a little faster.



  • I noticed that last patch if you were swinging an MAA could dodge through the swing, like a ghost. I haven’t been able to play so much this patch, is this still true or am I just a nutter?

    for example: Swing from the right, they dodge to their left and just go through it like they’re Houdini.



  • It might look like that on your screen but I assure you that was never possible. They likely dodged just before release so it seems that way. I eventually stopped doing this because I kept getting nicked by players with quick reflexes. Back dodges were and still are the most reliable.



  • @NoVaLombardia:

    How?

    Because you could dodge aggressively mid-windup and if something went wrong - dodge backwards. Rinse and repeat.

    @NoVaLombardia:

    This change ended up only nerfing MAA and Archer melee in reality (team play, don’t forget).

    Well yes, sprint lockout nerf was aimed mostly at vanguards same as alt swings fix mostly for man at arms, though everyone is affected by these. Sure I’d love if TBS got rid of sprint lockout for other classes if that’s possible.



  • @Chorpyc:

    I noticed that last patch if you were swinging an MAA could dodge through the swing, like a ghost. I haven’t been able to play so much this patch, is this still true or am I just a nutter?

    for example: Swing from the right, they dodge to their left and just go through it like they’re Houdini.

    Actually I had exactly that happen to me last night. I did a Zweihander slash at an up close MAA who dodged sideways passing through my oncoming blade with no impact. Was like he knew that would happen.



  • @rumpelstiltskin:

    @NoVaLombardia:

    How?

    Because you could dodge aggressively mid-windup and if something went wrong - dodge backwards. Rinse and repeat.

    Good players capitalized on this, especially ones that were good at fighting MAA. Block the attack, and the MAA is down to 70 stamina (less if they missed the attack), they can’t exactly dodge for much longer.

    If you say you couldn’t capitalize on this, that means you aren’t aggressive enough. Not to mention, leave the MAA killing to non-knights, because it was more important to hold the front lines. Have an archer land a hit, or let the vanguards do their support, or let the MAAs kill MAAs. Depends on your loadout comps to decide roles.

    But yes. If sprint lockout was removed for archer melee and MAA, THEN footwork could be used. By design, it doesn’t look that great, because once you introduce a specialized case, then you have to introduce other specialized cases elsewhere. The game has this universal simplicity to it. So, then we’d have to figure out a clever way to work around this… any ideas?



  • @NoVaLombardia:

    @rumpelstiltskin:

    @NoVaLombardia:

    How?

    Because you could dodge aggressively mid-windup and if something went wrong - dodge backwards. Rinse and repeat.

    Good players capitalized on this, especially ones that were good at fighting MAA. Block the attack, and the MAA is down to 70 stamina (less if they missed the attack), they can’t exactly dodge for much longer.

    If you say you couldn’t capitalize on this, that means you aren’t aggressive enough. Not to mention, leave the MAA killing to non-knights, because it was more important to hold the front lines. Have an archer land a hit, or let the vanguards do their support, or let the MAAs kill MAAs. Depends on your loadout comps to decide roles.

    But yes. If sprint lockout was removed for archer melee and MAA, THEN footwork could be used. By design, it doesn’t look that great, because once you introduce a specialized case, then you have to introduce other specialized cases elsewhere. The game has this universal simplicity to it. So, then we’d have to figure out a clever way to work around this… any ideas?

    It was still a bit too difficult to kill a MAA one on one pre-patch. While most of the high level MAA didn’t really use dodge offensively all that often, it was still a move in their arsenal and had to be considered in the back of your mind. Killing them basically took sprinting, feint spamming, dragging, CFTP, and more, haha. You could be as aggressive as possible, but smart MAA would just use that against you. I am not saying I like the changes, I like BB’s suggestions for how to rework the MAA. Killing a good MAA was so satisfying pre-patch, and I liked the challenge personally.

    In any case, I don’t see why we cant just remove the sprint lockout for all classes. It was meant to nerf vanguards so they couldn’t dance as effectively, but dancing was never OP and if you knew what they were doing, it wasn’t all that effective. Especially with the new changes to feinting and stamina, I am fairly certain dancing is nowhere near as powerful as it was.



  • it was yet another ridicolous un needed nerf that didnt really need to happen,
    and did to satisfy a bunch of whiners who couldnt adapt to the maa being able to dodge and attack them. god forbid they learned to stay back or lookout for the same move over and over again.

    so no we have to adapt cause they cant!

    wait! does that even makes sense? they cant, we have to, hmmm.
    i dnt think it really does.

    this nerf totaly watered down the maa and making him like a shell of his former self!

    i mean comon u can dodge what, 3 times in a regular server anyway.

    on my server we have beast mode, where u get unlimited stamina by kicking or dodging,
    and not 1 person has ever whined pre patch, now alot of ppl hate it, and they are also right.

    its seems crazy that sumthing like this would be removed from the game when its been there from the start, and is a core part of the maa’s play style!

    thats as crazy as like buffing the zweihander or sumthing,
    that would not be a smart move and would make an already ridicolous weapon just plain stupid.



  • Oh god dude, use spell check or something before posting man it’s painful to read that shit.



  • @NoVaLombardia:

    But yes. If sprint lockout was removed for archer melee and MAA, THEN footwork could be used. By design, it doesn’t look that great, because once you introduce a specialized case, then you have to introduce other specialized cases elsewhere. The game has this universal simplicity to it. So, then we’d have to figure out a clever way to work around this… any ideas?

    1. Revert knockback values.
    2. Remove sprint lockout.



  • @rumpelstiltskin:

    1. Revert knockback values.
    2. Remove sprint lockout.

    Those are most likely not being reverted, so try again.


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