[POLL] The Hammer Question



  • There was a discussion coming up regarding the role of the Warhammer. The idea came up that the Warhammer as a short weapon doesn’t quite fit the slow Knight class as primary and might be better off when moved to a secondary slot instead (replacing the Heavy Water Sprinkler). So I wanted to start a vote to see how people think about it.



  • Why would you remove the Holy Water Sprinkler? It is a decent weapon which has its uses (for example, counter-stab) and im am still surprised so few people use it.

    The Warhammer could use some buffing, though. Having it as a secondary could be interesting…



  • @Don_Kanaille:

    Why would you remove the Holy Water Sprinkler? It is a decent weapon which has its uses (for example, counter-stab) and im am still surprised so few people use it.

    The Warhammer could use some buffing, though. Having it as a secondary could be interesting…

    Removing it from the Knight’s secondary arsenal, making Holy-water sprinkler a unique Man-at arms weapon, the weapon just doesn’t seem like some type of weapon a Knight would really have, Warhammer is much more suitable in that secondary arsenal list.



  • @wildwulfy:

    @Don_Kanaille:

    Why would you remove the Holy Water Sprinkler? It is a decent weapon which has its uses (for example, counter-stab) and im am still surprised so few people use it.

    The Warhammer could use some buffing, though. Having it as a secondary could be interesting…

    Removing it from the Knight’s secondary arsenal, making Holy-water sprinkler a unique Man-at arms weapon, the weapon just doesn’t seem like some type of weapon a Knight would really have, Warhammer is much more suitable in that secondary arsenal list.

    Seems fair enough, though I am a bit afraid what a MMA could do with a HWS.



  • Warhammer does NOT need a buff. It’s 1-handed, using little stamina. It’s quick enough to be annoying and it 2-shot kills almost every fight even with lmb spamming.



  • If Knights don’t want their Warhammer MAAs will gladly take it off their hands :3



  • @BB:

    If Knights don’t want their Warhammer MAAs will gladly take it off their hands :3

    Shitty stab 0/10 do not want



  • I’ll take it! I already exclusively stab with cudgel. It’ll give me another silly weapon to spam stabs and annoy people with.

    @Don_Kanaille:

    Seems fair enough, though I am a bit afraid what a MMA could do with a HWS.

    But MAA already has the HWS? If there was a thing MAA could do with the HWS that was worth being afraid of you would already be afraid of it. I personally spam stabs and annoy people with it. Which is probably a thing most people do with the HWS.



  • I find the warhammer to be an excellent weapon, being able to two shot all classes. The only thing that makes it weak is the balancing regarding other classes at the moment. Reach and stabs are still the most powerful initiating tools, and with shields being damn near worthless except against excessive feinters (who if you’re not careful will feint + kick your shield for free hits), the warhammer falls to the way side because it lacks those characteristics. If you play shieldless warhammer you encounter the issue of range, where parrying a vanguard strike puts you out of range to counter attack them, countering a man at arms he will just dodge back forcing a miss. So really, the only two classes the warhammer stands a chance against are knights and archers, but a good archer is hyper aggressive and will flinch lock the small, slow warhammer with their quicker secondary. So really, all you’re left with is a one handed anti-knight weapon. Not particularly attractive except for that one role.

    So what I think I’m trying to say is, stat wise, the warhammer is fine. It’s just that currently stab attacks and reaching weapons are far superior to slow, damaging, short weapons. Put a spike on the warhammer and bump it’s stab damage up a good amount, and you’d see a lot more warhammer players.



  • I think the warhammer is fine. While you dont see it very often, now and then people own with it. The reason that you dont see it that often is that most knights want to have a 2H weapon.

    Im also against moving it to the secondary line, cause this would hurt the shield lovers. The only dedicated 1H weapons in primary would be the flails then, but youd be forced to use the buckler.
    So every kite-shield-fan will have to use a bastard sword.

    Really I dont see a reason to move it away from primary, what would we gain from that? I agree that the HWS doesnt fit knights, but dont move the warhammer just because you think 1H should be secondary. Also I dont think any secondary should be able to 2shot knights.

    And knights should have 1H primaries!



  • Warhammer basically sucks right now. Shields are pointless at the moment due to long counterattack times and stamina drainage, so you’re better off using the warhammer without a shield.

    Once you’ve stopped using a shield with it, you might as well just use a 2 hander, like the grand mace, which has more reach and 2 hits all classes all the time. Sure the grand mace is a bit slower, but the added reach makes its speed disadvantage irrelevant.

    The WH’s very short range is a big disadvantage that isn’t outweighed by its speed. Sure, if you get in close you can land 2 hits faster than a grand mace, but you have to get there first, and given that knights are the slowest class, that isn’t always easy to do so.

    Practically speaking, you’re going to be able to land more hits with the grand mace due to its range and the fact that you don’t have to waste time getting to face hugging distance with it. While a warhammer user is maneuvering into position to just get the chance to possibly hit, the grand mace user is already swinging.

    Add to that the fact that the warhammer doesn’t always 2 hit knights, and sometimes has to 3 hit, and it is nearly worthless. Even if you ignore the range disadvantage of the warhammer, if the grand mace hits twice a bit slower than the WH, but the warhammer takes an entire extra hit to kill a knight, then the grand mace will kill a whole strike earlier and faster.

    Finally, it may be the fastest 2 hitting 1 hander, but MAA weapons are considerably faster, and as a result, fighting MAAs with it isn’t the best idea. Too slow to consistently deal with MAAs means its only role is as a vanguard/knight killer. Vanguard’s completely insane new knockback means you’re going to have a very hard time getting in range to hit them, and there are far better weapons for dealing with knights, such as the maul or grand mace. The WH servers almost no purpose right now.



  • There is no point using the warhammer when the flanged mace exists, the mace also 2 hits knights to the head and is longer, the timings are equal or better than the warhammer, with the exception of combo slashes being 0.025s longer and combo stabs being 0.075s longer, and you can use any other primary with the mace.

    Warhammer is better htk against vanguards than the mace for non headshots, but knights are severely handicapped against vanguards when using such a short and not particularly quick weapon, so that’s largely irrelevant.

    As it stands, the warhammer is unworthy of its primary spot.



  • @Josh:

    There is no point using the warhammer when the flanged mace exists

    Haha seriously you wanna trade?
    @BB:

    If Knights don’t want their Warhammer MAAs will gladly take it off their hands :3



  • @BB:

    @Josh:

    There is no point using the warhammer when the flanged mace exists

    Haha seriously you wanna trade?
    @BB:

    If Knights don’t want their Warhammer MAAs will gladly take it off their hands :3

    Oh, guess I was wrong



  • @Josh:

    @BB:

    @Josh:

    There is no point using the warhammer when the flanged mace exists

    Haha seriously you wanna trade?
    @BB:

    If Knights don’t want their Warhammer MAAs will gladly take it off their hands :3

    Oh, guess I was wrong

    No it’s just that reliably two shotting Vans and MAAs with a blunt one hander sounds really nice. Only other one hander that can do that is the Star, and that’s with a .5 windup and requires two overheads.

    Warhammer might not match up to the other two handed blunt weapons but it’s still much better than any other blunt one hander.



  • @BB:

    No it’s just that reliably two shotting Vans and MAAs with a blunt one hander sounds really nice. Only other one hander that can do that is the Star, and that’s with a .5 windup and requires two overheads.

    Warhammer might not match up to the other two handed blunt weapons but it’s still much better than any other blunt one hander.

    Of course MAA would like to have the warhammer, because they move way faster than a knight, and can get in range with short weapons way easier. But that has no relevance to whether or not the WH is a good weapon for knights.

    And of course it’s better than the other 1 hand blunts, because they’re all secondary weapons. The whole point is that it’s worse than every other primary blunt weapon.



  • @BB:

    No it’s just that reliably two shotting Vans and MAAs with a blunt one hander sounds really nice. Only other one hander that can do that is the Star, and that’s with a .5 windup and requires two overheads.

    Requiring one headshot and one torso shot is very reliable for overheads, the flanged mace trumps the warhammer in this aspect

    @BB:

    Warhammer might not match up to the other two handed blunt weapons but it’s still much better than any other blunt one hander.

    Could you explain why?



  • Why do people think secondaries are worse than primaries? They are not. And they also should not.

    The Flanged Mace does not dominate the Warhammer as a double overhead to the opponents head is far more unlikely than a single non-stab to the head and a single non-stab everywhere but to the legs. Also the Warhammer deals overall more damage.

    The Grand Mace on the other side features stronger attacks but is slower and can’t be wielded with a shield what makes you more vulnerable to ranged fire support.

    Both have their tradeoffs but neither dominates the Warhammer.



  • Poor Josh is so misinformed. Here’s the damage spreadsheet updated to the current patch.

    Barring archer backstabs and sprint attacks, the only 1 handed weapons that can 2-shot knights are the warhammer and flanged mace. The flanged mace needs both to be overhead headshots. The warhammer can slash twice and only needs 1 headshot. A warhammer slash has the same windup speed as a flanged mace overhead.

    QED warhammer outclasses the flanged mace, not the other way around.

    As for the use for the warhammer, it seems to be the primary of choice for knights who have fallen in love with a secondary weapon. For example, knights who use the broadsword as their “primary weapon” and then realize they need something a little more effective against other knights.

    I guess it’s also for those who want to roleplay as Roran Stronghammer.



  • @Evil:

    The Flanged Mace does not dominate the Warhammer as a double overhead to the opponents head is far more unlikely than a single non-stab to the head and a single non-stab everywhere but to the legs. Also the Warhammer deals overall more damage.

    There is very little chance involved in hit locations, it comes down to the player’s accuracy, which is most significantly hindered when in groups where you’ll have much less optimal opportunities to aim strikes. In such situations the flanged mace becomes even better by having a longer reach and less release time, giving it a smaller vulnerable time frame, which further supports the mace’s superiority.

    The absolute damage values aren’t as relevant as hits to kill, which with reasonable accuracy is the same for each of the two weapons. absolute damage can be more significant with a fighting style that goes out of its way to target injured foes, but a knight with a short weapon won’t be very successful at that given his low speed.

    @RushSecond:

    Poor Josh is so misinformed. Here’s the damage spreadsheet updated to the current patch.

    What did I say that contradicts the spreadsheet?


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