Why can't games be difficult anymore?



  • Like Shadow Warrior. Now that’s a man’s game. Observe.

    [youtubehd:1koyyvtn]vuEMnC5Uz6E[/youtubehd:1koyyvtn]



  • This is actually what I do at the end of every match. Every. Single. One.



  • Someone watches Totalbiscuit’s videos.



  • @The:

    Someone watches Totalbiscuit’s videos.

    I watch many videos. What does that have to do with anything?



  • He was talking about how old school shooters were much better in general, and shadow warrior was the game in the background.



  • I never saw that video, but I concur. Though Blood is far and away the most difficult old school shooter IMO. A lot of Shadow Warrior is a walk in the park by comparison, such as the final boss being something you can just punch to death. He really should summon rings of exploding skulls like the other bosses :(



  • Someone’s gonna wake up with a sore crotch.



  • toVNkuCELpU



  • @SavageBeatings:

    Someone’s gonna wake up with a sore crotch.

    I did



  • @Daiyuki:

    toVNkuCELpU

    DotA and League of Legends are probably the most punishing games ever made but they’re also unmatched in playerbase, so I have trouble agreeing with this video.



  • @SlyGoat:

    Though Blood is far and away the most difficult old school shooter IMO.

    All I remember about Blood is dying when I touched corners the wrong way, or walked too quickly, or used doors from tight angles, or tried to breath. Granted, I only played the demo, but I guess all these things did make it quite difficult.



  • @SlyGoat:

    @Daiyuki:

    toVNkuCELpU

    DotA and League of Legends are probably the most punishing games ever made but they’re also unmatched in playerbase, so I have trouble agreeing with this video.

    They’re discussing single player titles, I believe. Multiplayer titles are difficult partly because of the mechanics of the game, but mostly because people themselves are so damn highly competitive.



  • Anything on the NES is hard, which is why people now refer to games today that are hard as NES hard. Some challenging games today are Demon/Dark Souls, Super Meat Boy, I Wanna Be The Guy, Ninja Gaiden, and some others.



  • With this latest patch they made chivalry more dufficult.

    People didn’t like that.

    That is why we don’t have difficult games these days.

    Majority rules.



  • @The:

    They’re discussing single player titles, I believe. Multiplayer titles are difficult partly because of the mechanics of the game, but mostly because people themselves are so damn highly competitive.

    I don’t believe a game being multiplayer changes how frustrating and punishing moments are experienced, though, unless you’re playing with a group of friends.

    LoL and DotA are punishing and frustrating from a solely mechanical standpoint. Dying slaps you with a huge respawn timer, including the trek back to your lane, and awards the other team a big chunk of gold and experience. In DotA in particular dying is awful because you lose gold and there isn’t anti-feeder bounty forgiveness like in LoL, but the tradeoff there is towers in LoL are made of glass and one or two early deaths not only gives the enemy in your lane a big lead, they’ll kill your tower and gain a huge boost for their entire team while making that lane extremely unsafe for you. Also there are tons of situations where you’ll die with virtually no chance to do anything about it, in most cases your character will be completely disabled the entire time. And then the snowball mechanics kick in and you feel completely helpless as you and your team are just brutalized for 10-30 minutes after the game was essentially lost.

    The competitiveness makes it worse mostly because dying hurts everyone on your team so everyone will be quick to rage at you for doing poorly. It doesn’t help things, sure, but it’s a symptom covering up the punishing mechanics. And then there’s learning all the items and what every hero does etc… But, on the flip side, after you realize how unbelievably frustrating and punishing and awful it is to die, you get a minor high every time you do well and put the other team through that terrible experience. Which is pretty much why these games are so successful. It’s an endless cycle of virtual sadomasochism.

    So I believe there is still a market for punishing games; especially now that we’ve mastered the art of simple things like “checkpoints”, and the concept of a finite number of lives is all but eradicated. I agree there is a point where the frustration barrier just completely prevents people from even trying to improve at the game and these two things are major factors in alleviating that. I enjoy playing through games like Shadow Warrior and Blood without save scumming, but the option is there if you want/need it - and making it automated with checkpoints just makes it all the more approachable.





  • @Keith:

    Anything on the NES is hard, which is why people now refer to games today that are hard as NES hard. Some challenging games today are Demon/Dark Souls, Super Meat Boy, I Wanna Be The Guy, Ninja Gaiden, and some others.

    Uber hard games like these have such a great draw to them.
    I love a challenge that pushes me to my limits, I can’t understand why anyone would want to play through an easy game any way (unless it’s just to relax) you don’t get that satisfying feeling that you get when you overcome something massive if the objective in question is handed to you on a silver platter…

    Games should be like life, YOU GOTTA WORK TO GET YOUR PAY SON!



  • @SlyGoat:

    […]
    [Lots of points]
    So I believe there is still a market for punishing games; especially now that we’ve mastered the art of simple things like “checkpoints”, and the concept of a finite number of lives is all but eradicated.

    I much prefer to save where I want rather than have a checkpoint forced on me, especially a bad one. If the checkpoint system is dynamic like in Halo 2, that’s the best way to do it, because you get this situation where you’re in a really tough spot and you gotta find a way out, but with the move towards regenerating health and safe checkpoints, it takes away the punishment for dying, but more importantly it removes that aspect from the player’s control.

    If I forgot to save, well fuck, I screwed myself over if I died. If I quicksave whore through a part because it’s kind of annoying me, that’s because it’s kind of annoying me and I want to progress. If I choose not to save at all and just try to blaze through on a single life, that might be awesome once in a while. Checkpoint systems ruin all that entirely and just make dying a situation where you roll your eyes and play through the last 4, 10, 20? minutes you just played every time you die.

    The only time these checkpoints are good is when they’re more integrated into the game, like in Legend of Dragoon where you had to find a save point if you wanted to save somewhere you were exploring, but on the overworld you could just save wherever you wanted to. That’s awesome because it’s an RPG and it’s far less likely that you’ll die over the regular course of things, but you are presented with a save point before a boss or something and that becomes a sign of impending danger in itself while also making it useful to get through the otherwise tedious battles unscathed because you can’t save, so if you get whittled down by the minions, you’re going to be restarting that boss fight a lot.

    That’s longer than I wanted to write just on the subject of checkpoints, but I disagree on Dota-style games being punishing. How else are you going to make it so that a player kill is meaningful? If you died, you get punished, if you died a bunch and got behind, you clearly got bested. The part I agree with would be the needless 20-minute pounding you’d take afterwards, but that makes epic comebacks epic and I think is why there’s a level cap. If one team blazes up the levels but doesn’t capitalize enough on their advantage, the other team can catch up and start winning some fights and stage that epic comeback. I don’t see any other means in a competitive PvEvP game to make deaths matter. People would just go for towers because completing the objective would be way more important than the life they’re trading for it, seeking to avoid fights at all costs because they are far less meaningful to win and thus sneaking around and sniping a tower would be the best way to victory.



  • @SlyGoat:

    Like Shadow Warrior. Now that’s a man’s game. Observe.

    [youtubehd:22q04a1f]vuEMnC5Uz6E[/youtubehd:22q04a1f]

    I wouldn’t say games have gotten easier over the years. Games I used to find hard are pretty easy now…. Almost to the point of being boring.

    Doom was hard… But now seems simplistic.

    Games I used to play day in and day out on the Atari or Nintendo seemed hard as hell and with little information like walkthroughs, etc. Now I try and play them and after five minutes or less I just turn them off because there’s no challenge.

    I see the code, there is no spoon.




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