The "Panic Parry" Mechanic is Bad



  • @lemonater47:

    Apparently a change to combo feint parry means that the entire combat part of the game was dimbed down.

    You apparently not realising this only displays your lack of experience with high-level play.

    @Dokb:
    It was never a crutch to any good player. Not a tool to recover from mistakes. It is simply a combination of being able to keep initiative by comboing, and being able to control fights by being able to feint offensively and defensively. Combo-feinting with a 2-hander is now a game of luck, with no chance to react (i.e. not feint) to an attack that came in an un-reactably small time frame. Any player that wishes to keep the initiative in a fight has to gamble like this, and if you don’t gamble you always lose.

    It is a simple inevitability in live’s combat system that has been seriously overlooked.

    Of course that brings in the problem of missed attacks being harder to punish against good players (not really, feint once) but obviously the devs actually wanted that because we now have panic parry. They kept the “crutch”, made it easier, and made high-level 2-hander play a game of chance.

    Panic parry isn’t an issue, to me at least, it’s as easily beatable as CFTP to skip recoveries was. It’s the lack of offensive CFTP that really breaks the game.



  • If it wasn’t a crutch then why is/was everyone making such a big deal about it (being removed+replaced)?



  • Its a get outta jail free card that’s all it was. If its something else then please elaborate.



  • @DokB:

    If it wasn’t a crutch then why is/was everyone making such a big deal about it (being removed+replaced)?

    Did you read my post? Because stuff people didn’t like removed was actually stuff that made the game better for competitive play? Remove parrying - people won’t like it - parrying is a crutch. That’s not good logic.



  • While I wouldnt say it was a crutch to all, lots of posts in this forum give me the feel there was a considerable amount of players who used it as a crutch to own newer players who didnt know there was a way to bypass recovery.

    @NabsterHax:

    Panic parry isn’t an issue, to me at least, it’s as easily beatable as CFTP to skip recoveries was. It’s the lack of offensive CFTP that really breaks the game.

    I totally agree with your first sentence, funny how people complain about something that already existed, but was hidden from new players.

    Im not 100% sure what you mean with the second one since CFTP ends with parry which is a defensive move.

    Assuming you ment the option to not feint out and continue the attack, thats exactly the reason it was taken out, since you should choose whether to attack or defend earlier. I like that change since it takes away from reaction/performance and adds to tactical thinking/mindgames.



  • @Towe:

    Assuming you ment the option to not feint out and continue the attack, thats exactly the reason it was taken out, since you should choose whether to attack or defend earlier. I like that change since it takes away from reaction/performance and adds to tactical thinking/mindgames.

    No, the reason it was taken out was to stop players from continuing to use combo-feints to skip recovery and defend. It was to force people to use the combo-parry for that function.

    What I was saying was that you currently can’t use combo-feint as an offensive move against players that aren’t completely passive. You get the 0.4 parry penalty if you feint at ANY point during the combo-windup, STARTING from the time of the feint. This means that if I score a hit, and combo so I can hit again for a second time I have basically 2 options. Option 1 is to follow through and option 2 is to feint. Now, WHICHEVER option I choose, my opponent has the chance to take control of the fight by just guessing correctly.

    If I follow through and they parry, they get control of the fight and can feint me out all they like with it to land a hit. If I FEINT, and they ATTACK at the same time I’m completely stuffed. Pre-patch good players could react to the attack and parry, but now the lockout prevents that. It’s impossible to use feints skilfully to control a fight and comes completely down to luck (and a bit of experience against the fighter, but if they’re not predictable it will be mostly luck). This throws high-level feint balance completely off. Being able to feint to parry whenever you could feint was the only thing stopping feints becoming ruled by a guessing game.

    It’s pretty deep stuff, I know, and simplifying it like this doesn’t really say it all, but basically this is what happens in live. No amount of “adapting” will allow you to keep control of a fight if you make no mistakes in the current build, especially since you can’t even run away after you get parried now.



  • Someone hits me, he starts comboing, i hit him mid combo with a fast weapon and interrupt his combo and he cant do anything about it

    Yay for CFTP removal :D



  • @CRUSHED:

    Someone hits me, he starts comboing, i hit him mid combo with a fast weapon and interrupt his combo and he cant do anything about it

    Yay for CFTP removal :D

    Yeah he can’t do anything about it… except not combo.

    Though I know it must come as a real shock to you ‘pro’ players that you don’t HAVE to combo after every single attack. I know, blasphemy, right?



  • @Bloodhead:

    @CRUSHED:

    Someone hits me, he starts comboing, i hit him mid combo with a fast weapon and interrupt his combo and he cant do anything about it

    Yay for CFTP removal :D

    Yeah he can’t do anything about it… except not combo.

    Though I know it must come as a real shock to you ‘pro’ players that you don’t HAVE to combo after every single attack. I know, blasphemy, right?

    Um, well as not combo-ing is still the equivalent of death in high-level play that would also be a terrible idea. If you don’t combo the other guy can just feint and hit you for free. Taking it in turns to attack is a terrible, terrible thing with feints still in play.

    Would it come as a shock to you if I told you that high-level players actually know how to play the game and what options they have in every situation? People like to spread mis-information that we only know how to “exploit.” It’s very sad for me that this has seemed to take hold in people’s minds, because it’s simply not true in the majority of cases and only leads to genuine reason and experience being ignored.

    And yes, I’m aware that sounds arrogant but really there’s not a better way to put it. Why skill and experience in a game is, to most people, less of a reason to trust that person’s judgement than any other skill in life I don’t know.



  • Um, well as not combo-ing is still the equivalent of death in high-level play that would also be a terrible idea. If you don’t combo the other guy can just feint and hit you for free. Taking it in turns to attack is a terrible, terrible thing with feints still in play.

    That is an issue with feints and has absolutely nothing to do with CFtP. Assuming feints were readable - and they are getting there - everything you said would be false and attacking in turns would be perfectly fine.



  • Um no panic parry? The game would be 100x slower and would consist of both players sizing each up other up, standing about 10 meters away constantly winding up and feinting out of it. The first person to attack (or run out of stamina) loses. Unless they drastically reduce recovery times removal of the panic parry would change the game more than the previous patch did by several magnitudes.



  • @NabsterHax:

    If I follow through and they parry, they get control of the fight and can feint me out all they like with it to land a hit. If I FEINT, and they ATTACK at the same time I’m completely stuffed.

    Due to the longer flinch time and unfeintable window, this is not the case anymore. If you try to punish a combo feint by attacking, you will get interrupted by the combo-feinted attack, no matter how fast your weapon is. Once you are flinched by a 2-hander, you are forced to be on the defensive, without any say in the matter and must attempt to parry the following attack, feinted or not.

    I’m fairly certain the same issue happens with 1-handers, mostly due to being unable to late feint… though I haven’t tested this case yet.

    And, Bloodhead… your posts make no sense, just as they normally don’t.



  • @Bloodhead:

    @CRUSHED:

    Someone hits me, he starts comboing, i hit him mid combo with a fast weapon and interrupt his combo and he cant do anything about it

    Yay for CFTP removal :D

    Yeah he can’t do anything about it… except not combo.

    Though I know it must come as a real shock to you ‘pro’ players that you don’t HAVE to combo after every single attack. I know, blasphemy, right?

    So you should not combo ever? even when you hit someone? sounds like a huge design failure to me

    Whats the purpose of combos then?



  • @NoVaLombardia:

    @NabsterHax:

    If I follow through and they parry, they get control of the fight and can feint me out all they like with it to land a hit. If I FEINT, and they ATTACK at the same time I’m completely stuffed.

    Due to the longer flinch time and unfeintable window, this is not the case anymore. If you try to punish a combo feint by attacking, you will get interrupted by the combo-feinted attack, no matter how fast your weapon is. Once you are flinched by a 2-hander, you are forced to be on the defensive, without any say in the matter and must attempt to parry the following attack, feinted or not.

    I’m fairly certain the same issue happens with 1-handers, mostly due to being unable to late feint… though I haven’t tested this case yet.

    I forgot about the increased 2h flinch time but I’m fairly sure if you have a faster weapon you will still beat the combo-feinter to his next attack if he late feints. Especially if the initial attack hit was accelerated.

    Still, I don’t see how a free feint period would contribute to the skill of the game. I would rather see 1h flinch time decreased to allow their feints to be punished more easily than the other way around. I’ve never liked that, as a main 1h user myself, I can fail a combo-feint attempt and get away with a hit trade on a 2h, even though I should have to parry that hit.



  • @CRUSHED:

    @Bloodhead:

    @CRUSHED:

    Someone hits me, he starts comboing, i hit him mid combo with a fast weapon and interrupt his combo and he cant do anything about it

    Yay for CFTP removal :D

    Yeah he can’t do anything about it… except not combo.

    Though I know it must come as a real shock to you ‘pro’ players that you don’t HAVE to combo after every single attack. I know, blasphemy, right?

    So you should not combo ever? even when you hit someone? sounds like a huge design failure to me

    Whats the purpose of combos then?

    you so clearly flipped that one around. the question is "so you should never not Combo? so what’s the purpose of Recovery then?

    i mean if you hit someone, and then you choose to Combo, and you get hit during your Combo Wind up before Release, than that means their weapon must be way faster than yours and/or your timing was completely off. and if they have a faster weapon, it’s probably smaller. so you failed to kite and/or failed to time properly. you just basically misjudged the entire situation.

    you are expecting Combo to be the answer every time, and when it becomes not the answer every time and you actually have to use judgement here, you totally flip it around.



  • If I follow through and they parry, they get control of the fight and can feint me out all they like with it to land a hit. If I FEINT, and they ATTACK at the same time I’m completely stuffed.

    If you feint carelessly and the enemy attacks into you, you SHOULD be completely stuffed. Now feints are actually less of a guessing game because you can make them safe only by feinting extremely early in your windup and then waiting to see what your opponent does. Of course that makes your feint much more readable (and thus less of a guessing game!) but that’s the proper price you pay for staying safe.

    If you want your opponent to fall for a feint, you have to take a risk now. This is a good thing.



  • @NabsterHax:

    @Towe:

    Assuming you ment the option to not feint out and continue the attack, thats exactly the reason it was taken out, since you should choose whether to attack or defend earlier. I like that change since it takes away from reaction/performance and adds to tactical thinking/mindgames.

    No, the reason it was taken out was to stop players from continuing to use combo-feints to skip recovery and defend. It was to force people to use the combo-parry for that function.

    That does not make sense. You say the reason they take out CFTP was that you could use it to bypass recovery, but the implement panicparry so you can do it again???

    @NabsterHax:

    What I was saying was that you currently can’t use combo-feint as an offensive move against players that aren’t completely passive. You get the 0.4 parry penalty if you feint at ANY point during the combo-windup, STARTING from the time of the feint. This means that if I score a hit, and combo so I can hit again for a second time I have basically 2 options. Option 1 is to follow through and option 2 is to feint. Now, WHICHEVER option I choose, my opponent has the chance to take control of the fight by just guessing correctly.

    So you dont want them to be able to take control even if they do the right action at the right time?
    Also you say an offensive move is unusable because it keeps you from parrying?

    @NabsterHax:

    If I follow through and they parry, they get control of the fight and can feint me out all they like with it to land a hit. If I FEINT, and they ATTACK at the same time I’m completely stuffed. Pre-patch good players could react to the attack and parry, but now the lockout prevents that. It’s impossible to use feints skilfully to control a fight and comes completely down to luck (and a bit of experience against the fighter, but if they’re not predictable it will be mostly luck). This throws high-level feint balance completely off. Being able to feint to parry whenever you could feint was the only thing stopping feints becoming ruled by a guessing game.

    It’s pretty deep stuff, I know, and simplifying it like this doesn’t really say it all, but basically this is what happens in live. No amount of “adapting” will allow you to keep control of a fight if you make no mistakes in the current build, especially since you can’t even run away after you get parried now.

    So the only way the defending player gets to attack should be if the attacker makes a mistake? With two perfect players it would come down to who strikes first then (so longer weapon wins).
    I think the game is much more fun if its a back and forth if noone makes a mistake…

    One a side note it seems funny to me that you complain about the defender becoming the attacker when he does everything right, but then you say that when you are the defender you stand no chance…



  • @NabsterHax:

    I’m fairly certain the same issue happens with 1-handers, mostly due to being unable to late feint… though I haven’t tested this case yet.

    I forgot about the increased 2h flinch time but I’m fairly sure if you have a faster weapon you will still beat the combo-feinter to his next attack if he late feints.

    Nope. Tested this with macros so he could late-feint perfectly every time.

    Especially if the initial attack hit was accelerated.

    In a perfect scenario with 0 ping for all players, maybe. But, that is a lot of perfect scenarios that will have to happen (0 ping, instant overhead). And the window is still extremely small (within 0.05 seconds), so most likely a hit trade would happen instead with those perfect scenarios.



  • I agree with the op. Panic parry is obsolete.



  • @RushSecond:

    If I follow through and they parry, they get control of the fight and can feint me out all they like with it to land a hit. If I FEINT, and they ATTACK at the same time I’m completely stuffed.

    If you feint carelessly and the enemy attacks into you, you SHOULD be completely stuffed. Now feints are actually less of a guessing game because you can make them safe only by feinting extremely early in your windup and then waiting to see what your opponent does. Of course that makes your feint much more readable (and thus less of a guessing game!) but that’s the proper price you pay for staying safe.

    If you want your opponent to fall for a feint, you have to take a risk now. This is a good thing.

    If you do an early feint, good players just won’t fall for it. Now that even late feints are more reactable people are watching for this all the time. As I said, you either gamble big or lose every time. What you’re saying is that the best tactic is to combo-feint very early to start the parry cooldown then you have a regular attack which you can feint and feint to parry with. This basically just eats stamina, but it’s the only way to eliminate luck. Having to take risks that are entirely dependant on your opponents random actions is not a good thing at all.

    @Towie:

    That does not make sense. You say the reason they take out CFTP was that you could use it to bypass recovery, but the implement panicparry so you can do it again???

    Yes, they wanted to make sure people wouldn’t just continuously combo, but realised that the old system only worked because of CFTP. They accidentally made a very balanced and skill based game at high-levels but decided to mutilate it to “intended” in this patch while imposing the ridiculous requirement that you “predict” over half a second ahead what all of your opponents are going to do.

    So you dont want them to be able to take control even if they do the right action at the right time?
    Also you say an offensive move is unusable because it keeps you from parrying?

    Yes, because they only do the right action at the right time due (largely) to a guess. A lot of the time pre-patch this succeeded anyway, but if you were on the ball you could prevent it.

    So the only way the defending player gets to attack should be if the attacker makes a mistake? With two perfect players it would come down to who strikes first then (so longer weapon wins).
    I think the game is much more fun if its a back and forth if noone makes a mistake…

    Why should an attacker be disadvantaged at all if he never makes a mistake? That doesn’t make any sense from a competitive standpoint. In reality it was extremely difficult to never make a mistake, but those who made less mistakes won more. The defender made a mistake in the first and most controllable part of the fight - the initial hit. It is possible for the defender to turn the fight around again, but it was never given for free by game limitations.


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